Some Stray Thoughts

[Nitaidas]

Now, now! I never laid a hand on 'im. Specially not that part of him.

I like Mr. Shiva or whatever he is called. We agree on very little, but we can communicate. We are both willing to think outside the box, entertain new and perhaps weird ideas and possibilities, and have both at various times suffered for it. Who else here had something to say about cults or charisma?

[OBrian]

Nitai, I sincerely compliment you on keeping it real when you politely inform Shiva that guru is essential. What a relief to find some sanity amidst the free-for-all mood that has descended on nearly everyone lately. "Thinking outside of the box" was very generous of you - everyone knows Shiva's speech leads nowhere. Dead end. A real no one man. I remember some time back when you said "we need a sane vaisnavism". You were right and I apologize for being one of the people who attacked you without giving it a chance, without admiting that, even though we disliked your personal style, in that point you were absolutely on the mark. I hope you have not given up on the sane vaisnavism ideal.

Shiva just repeats himself like a broken record but says really nothing, "when you really know yourself and the nature of one person controlling everything blah blah blah then you will really know the nature of reality and then you are ready for raganugha blah blah blah..."

Some people never really got it about Radharani, and so they now attack Radharani. "One single female entitty controling everyone." Well, like it or not, that is the truth my friends. One single female, Swaminiji, is the source of your farts even. And if you are a dam male (or a little boy) who never got it about the Supreme Female, well, that is just to bad for you isn't it??

Shiva just repeats himself like a broken record but says really nothing, "when you really know yourself and the nature of one person controlling everything blah blah blah then you will really know the nature of reality and then you are ready for raganugha blah blah blah..."

Who watches Star Trek anyways, rednecks envious of talibans who really control their womyn, these watch. But when the thinking class amuses themselves with that stuff, well it gets a little depressing.

And believe me Nitai, you DON'T want to touch "Vrajabhumi"...

[Fabiola]

'Shiva', the man who misleads hundreds passing himself for a woman, "Vrajabhumi", objects to anonymity. Bizarro world indeed.

And then there is "they". Just who are all these "they" you talk about in your rantings all over the internet Shiva? Give at least one name. Address real people for once. So far no one can come forward accused because you denounce strawmen. Accusing a dead man does not count.

[Deleted]

A Tale of Two Brothers

Once upon a time there were 2 among the sons of Bhaktivinode who started out propagating his mission together. They soon parted ways because the older brother decided his father's mission needed a makeover and elements of other traditions needed to be introduced, things like saffron robes and sannyasi dandas, in order to effectively bring the religion of Shree Chaitanya to the mlechas of the world. The younger brother stood his ground and stuck with the original plan. The outcome as we all know was the the younger brother had a very long life of sublime and peaceful bhajan wheras the older brother had a much shorter life that ultimately resulted in the ISKCON experiment, wherein the GBC sponsored descendent guru regime blew up the lab to smithereens and a big cloud of dust.

That history strikes a resonant chord on my heart strings that play soft and low. You see, my elder brother is some sort of bishop in the Anglican Church and his attitude now towards his own family is "You Hindu Rastafarians are on the road to perdition with your devil's weed and devil's music." My attitude towards him is "Peace brother, and best of luck." He has this vision that he is going to transform our island paradise into the new stomping ground for Jesus in his prophesized 2nd coming. He has lost the ability to look around him and see that our island is already a paradise and does not need him to transform it into something better. If only I could get him some eyewear from the opticians shop to make him see clearly once again. For now he'll have to see through the spectacles his church has prescribed for him, unfortunately.

I'm heading to hang with my mlecha buddies in the States for several days. Hopefully when I log back in here after that there will be more spirited discussions to read through.

Mohallo as they say in Polynesia!

[Nitaidas]

Well, it sounds like Shiva/Vrajabhumi can defend him/herself well enough. He seems like he actually knows things. His comments on cults and charisma, though one-sided, demonstrated some understanding of the recent research done on the subjects. If he is bull-shitting, it is not easily apparent to me. He is clearly a smart guy/girl with some clearly oddball views (imho) but who has the ability to present them with some degree of sophistication. Is this the direction, though, that we wish to let our thoughts stray? What about drawing them back to the pondering of imponderables? Or, is such an exercise too ponderous for those who drop by this site? Are you ghosts really looking for some excitement, like a fight? I think we should try to feed our brains not our spleens.

Someone mentioned my old essay "Sane Vaisnavism." I was never able to develop that very far, but had some ideas of where such an essay should go. I think the essay is still available over on my old site, the Bhajan Kutir, if anyone wants to look at it. My idea of sane Vaisnavism is an evolved form of Vaisnavism in which all of its core tenets have been examined in the light (yes, I said light) of modern philosophical and scientific thought. My basic presupposition for this endeavor is that the goal of CV should not be to try to turn back time to the 16th century in an effort to try to live and think like Sri Caitanya or the Goswamins did. Rather the goal should be for it to find for itself a home in the 21st century, honoring the past, but not living there. All of the anti-scientific and anti-intellectual rhetoric that I sometimes hear from various segments of the Vaisnava community only leads to a state of insanity, I believe. The community not only appears insane to outside observers, but within values the cultivation of a kind of insanity among the members of its community. Whoever can be the most virulent and fanatical denier of the realities of the present or the emergent future is considered the most elevated bhakta. This is clearly insane.

So what has to happen for CV to make a home in the 21st century and flourish? The first thing is that we need to reconsider our understanding of the sources of knowledge. That is what I tried to do first in that essay, rethink the relative values and weaknesses of the various ways in which we know things about the world and about Krsna. The results were a little surprising. At least, they were to me. But, if we can learn to value the kinds of knowledge that come to us through the senses and through inference, we can learn to place the world and the scientific view of the world in a more vibrant and sane dialog with the sacred world as discovered through sabda or verbal testimony.

[Fabiola]

So Nitai you're saying Vrajabhumi/Shiva should get away with cheating, deceiving and bulshitting because he is engaged in the "noble" cause of dennouncing the cheating, deceiving and bulshitting of Bhaktivedanta Swami? Aren't you a little biased in your choice of bullshitter? Why should anyone cease to listen from one cheater so to go listen from another? Do you realize the sort of bs you pull on us here in the name of "feeding our brains"? If that is what you call "pondering", I will have to say it may be very well ponderable but, as far as I am concerned, its thanks but no thanks.

[Nitaidas]

May 23, 2009 15:48:36 GMT -6 @Fabiola said:

So Nitai you're saying Vrajabhumi/Shiva should get away with cheating, deceiving and bulshitting because he is engaged in the "noble" cause of dennouncing the cheating, deceiving and bulshitting of Bhaktivedanta Swami? Aren't you a little biased in your choice of bullshitter? Why should anyone cease to listen from one cheater so to go listen from another? Do you realize the sort of bs you pull on us here in the name of "feeding our brains"? If that is what you call "pondering", I will have to say it may be very well ponderable but, as far as I am concerned, its thanks but no thanks.

Is that what I am really saying? I don't recall making Shiva my bullshitter of choice. There is no doubt that bullshitting should be criticized whenever it is found. You are a bullshitter, too. I frankly don't see much of a difference between a bullshitter like you and a bullshitter like him. So does that mean that you are my bullshitter of choice. A case can be made that he is less of a bullshitter than you. He at least doesn't hide behind phony monikers like Fabiola, or Amerika. or other forms of gutless anonymity. He has the testicles to take a stand and identify himself. That is more than what you have.

It matters so little to me whether turd eaters like you read my stuff or visit this site or even continue to exist. If you think what I have to say is bullshit, then prove it. You're just a brainless, nameless twerp, always trying to drag things down into the gutter where you live.

[Nitaidas]

May 23, 2009 15:48:36 GMT -6 @Fabiola said:

So Nitai you're saying Vrajabhumi/Shiva should get away with cheating, deceiving and bulshitting because he is engaged in the "noble" cause of dennouncing the cheating, deceiving and bulshitting of Bhaktivedanta Swami? Aren't you a little biased in your choice of bullshitter? Why should anyone cease to listen from one cheater so to go listen from another? Do you realize the sort of bs you pull on us here in the name of "feeding our brains"? If that is what you call "pondering", I will have to say it may be very well ponderable but, as far as I am concerned, its thanks but no thanks.

I think perhaps I missed the real core of this comment, Fabiola, or whoever you are. You seem to think that you have clearly demonstrated that Shiva has cheated, deceived, and bullshitted. You have demonstrated nothing of the sort. Therefore, there is no evidence that he is getting away with anything. Bhaktivedanta is a proven cheater, deceiver, and bullshitter. That you yourself seem to admit. Shiva's denunciation of that therefore cannot be an example of bullshit or deception. How has Shiva cheated? How has he deceived? How has he bullshitted? Looking back over his last post, I think he has hit the nail squarely on the head several times. When he denounces Bhaktivedanta he is clearly not deceiving, but speaking the truth. So your argument is itself a fine example of bullshit.

Apparently, the only evidence you have that he has deceived is that he used the name Vrajabhumi on some site and gave his sex as female. Well, you are passing yourself off as Fabiola, a female name, "grower of beans," to be exact. Who knows who you really are? You are yourself passing yourself off as a female. I think you have been eating too many of those beans you grow. As far as I am concerned Shiva is not the deceiver or bullshitter, you are.

[Die Liebe]

Wow that was some defense of Shiva congratulations Nitai you have made another gigantic step there towards the ultimate goal of your life wich is to establish "the truth" about Bhaktivedanta Swami by any and all means. This present mean of yours is a true work of art. Luckly for your gurudeva, (like BS), he does not depend on certain disciples for true representation. I would imagine he is, like many of us are, dismayed.

[Fabiola]

Nitai,

To suit your opinon suddenly the, in your words, 'odd ball' Shiva becomes a sound philosopher? Do you even know what he is saying vis a vis what you call Caitanya Vaishnavism? Do you even bother to check? Or all that it matters is that he is 'exposing' BS? Because Shiva 'exposes' BS on the grounds that BS cheated on his presentation of GVism. But Shiva's own version of GVism is not any less outrageous than the cult's. So, thats the cheating we are talking about, right? Or have you been cheated by BS in other fronts, such as money, girlfriend, or something in those lines? These are are all legit questions there for you, Professor Dick.

[Fabiola]

Nitai,

To suit your opinon suddenly the, in your words, 'odd ball' Shiva becomes a sound philosopher? Do you even know what he is saying vis a vis what you call Caitanya Vaishnavism? Do you even bother to check? Or all that it matters is that he is 'exposing' BS? Because Shiva 'exposes' BS on the grounds that BS cheated on his presentation of GVism. But Shiva's own version of GVism is not any less outrageous than the cult's. So, thats the cheating we are talking about, right? Or have you been cheated by BS in other fronts, such as money, girlfriend, or something in those lines? These are are all legit questions there for you, Professor Dick.

[Fabiolala]

Nitai you wrote:
"Bhaktivedanta is a proven cheater, deceiver, and bullshitter. That you yourself seem to admit.
Shiva's denunciation of that therefore cannot be an example of bullshit or deception. How has Shiva cheated? How has he deceived? How has he bullshitted?"

No I don't admit that. Definitely not based on Shiva's "evidence".

How about you Nitai, where is your nail-argument that shows that BS "cheated, deceived, and bulshitted"? Would you say your own life is evidence enough of that charge? Give us something to ponder on in this matter, please. But remember, bitterness alone does not prove much in this case.

[Nitaidas]

May 24, 2009 9:39:16 GMT -6 @Die Liebe said:

Wow that was some defense of Shiva congratulations Nitai you have made another gigantic step there towards the ultimate goal of your life wich is to establish "the truth" about Bhaktivedanta Swami by any and all means. This present mean of yours is a true work of art. Luckly for your gurudeva, (like BS), he does not depend on certain disciples for true representation. I would imagine he is, like many of us are, dismayed.

Thanks. I thought you might enjoy that, whoever you are? I would prefer to forget BV and BS. That is the only real fate they are fully worthy of, but it seems like my audience, such as it is, insists on making it an issue. Actually, before Fabiola mentioned that Shiva was virulently anti-BS, I didn't know this about him. I certainly don't follow his postings on other sites or even his own. Based on what he has posted here, in this site, which is all I read of his writing, he makes some good points. Let us look at a few:

Shiva (or buddysattva):

One of the first and most commonly reinforced memes taught in ISKCON is how they are better than everyone else; to the point of believing everyone else is demonic! That meme is reinforced on a daily basis in ISKCON circles, and in their teachings.

So it is not uncommon to see people who have imbibed such a narcissistic dualistic vision of themselves and the world around them, to treat people with a different vision than their own "perfect holy truth" as demons who are unworthy of any sort of treatment -- other than trying to "kill the demon."

This I think is true and it accords with my experience of ISKCON way back when I ran with the wolf pack. It is also typical of personality cults, which ISKCON clearly was. Fortunately for me I got a close of view of the personality in question. I was around, for instance, when BV supposedly cursed an enemy in Juhu who was challenging his claim to the land there. The man died of some illness. Who knows what it was. I don't believe for a minute that the poor bloke was really killed by BV's curse. The sad and disgusting thing about it was the fact that he thought he did and he was glad of it. The so-called devotees, too, who were around at the time (me too I guess) all regarded the man and his family as a demon and thought he clearly deserved what he got. That is how dehumanized we became. I am ashamed I let that little brown man steal my humanity away from me so easily. He was completely immoral and taught us, his disciples, to be so too.

This is not to condone or agree with everything that Shiva says or does, or even most of it. I know he holds some pretty ridiculous views of the nature of CV. He and I have butted heads on those issues in the past. Those of you who have followed our conversations over the years know this. He is not by any means a deceiver on the level that BV or BS were. They had our complete confidence. Shiva mostly has our ridicule.

As for my relationship with my gurudeva, that is completely my own affair. You know nothing of him and never will. If I have overstepped my bounds and not met his hopes and expectations for me, that is something we will work out between us. I don't feel like he has rejected me or that he will ever do that, though I am sure I have disappointed him often enough. He is a genuine mahatma, unlike some of the imitators we have been discussing.

[Dear One]

Your gurudeva is not your property Nitai. If Bhaktivedanta Swami was the monster that you say he was, you yourself have not done any great favor to the wetern devotees by misrepresenting your gurudeva as you did. And does even as you speak. By being so judgemental and negative about a "little brown man" (what was your guru's color anyway, wasn't he brown as well? For that reason alone you should show a little more restraint in how you refer to your guru's compatriot), you disgrace your guru. Personally I have had to discover your guru for myself to find that you certainly have missed a lot of his sweetness. At least regarding how to forgive and to take responsibility for your own choices, you have not learned from well from a real mahatma. "The so-called devotees, too, who were around at the time (me too I guess) all regarded the man and his family as a demon". You guess?

Caitanya's mission may not be about Bhaktivedanta Swami's legacy, but it certainly isn't about your gratuitous, or at best, very personal grudge against a struggling little man, whatever color he happens to be.

[Dear One]

In case you object to "struggling" in struggling little man, let me explain: Anyone who makes mistakes in this world while honestly pursuing love of God is a fellow struggler worth of some respect or at least forgiveness. Judgment and sentence should be left to God alone.