|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 24, 2009 12:29:08 GMT -6
Nitai, To suit your opinon suddenly the, in your words, 'odd ball' Shiva becomes a sound philosopher? Do you even know what he is saying vis a vis what you call Caitanya Vaishnavism? Do you even bother to check? Or all that it matters is that he is 'exposing' BS? Because Shiva 'exposes' BS on the grounds that BS cheated on his presentation of GVism. But Shiva's own version of GVism is not any less outrageous than the cult's. So, thats the cheating we are talking about, right? Or have you been cheated by BS in other fronts, such as money, girlfriend, or something in those lines? These are are all legit questions there for you, Professor Dick. Shiva is no philosopher, but he occasionally gets it right, as we all do, I suppose, even you. As I said in my last posting I really don't know what buddysattva says in other forums, much less do I care. I know what he has said in this forum. In this forum he has never really exercised his anti-BS muscles. No need to. It would be preaching to the choir. So, I had no idea he was anti-BS until you told me. In fact, it was you who even raised the whole issue of anti-BS/BV in the first place. My own predilection as I said before is to forget all about them. Yet, you seem to want to drag it all up again. Maybe I will resist. If you believe that BS/BV are not deceivers, then by all means follow them. What do I care? I have nothing to say to you. None of my books or translations are for you. This site is not for you. What are you wasting your time with me for? Go follow your gurus wherever they will lead you. |
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 24, 2009 12:38:08 GMT -6
Your gurudeva is not your property Nitai. If Bhaktivedanta Swami was the monster that you say he was, you yourself have not done any great favor to the wetern devotees by misrepresenting your gurudeva as you did. And does even as you speak. By being so judgemental and negative about a "little brown man" (what was your guru's color anyway, wasn't he brown as well? For that reason alone you should show a little more restraint in how you refer to your guru's compatriot), you disgrace your guru. Personally I have had to discover your guru for myself to find that you certainly have missed a lot of his sweetness. At least regarding how to forgive and to take responsibility for your own choices, you have not learned from well from a real mahatma. " The so-called devotees, too, who were around at the time (me too I guess) all regarded the man and his family as a demon". You guess? Caitanya's mission may not be about Bhaktivedanta Swami's legacy, but it certainly isn't about your gratuitous, or at best, very personal grudge against a struggling little man, whatever color he happens to be. My relationship with my guru is none of your business. I do not claim him to be my property. Your relationship with him, if there is one, is none of my business. Western devotees can go to hell, for I all care. It is not my business to try to save them. Nor do I think it is within my power to save them. They and you are on your own. Yes, that is what he was: a little brown man who thought he could save the world, or shoot it if it didn't want his salvation. |
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 24, 2009 12:39:52 GMT -6
In case you object to "struggling" in struggling little man, let me explain: Anyone who makes mistakes in this world while honestly pursuing love of God is a fellow struggler worth of some respect or at least forgiveness. Judgment and sentence should be left to God alone. And that God would be you? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2009 16:54:21 GMT -6
Wow that was some defense of Shiva congratulations Nitai you have made another gigantic step there towards the ultimate goal of your life wich is to establish "the truth" about Bhaktivedanta Swami by any and all means. This present mean of yours is a true work of art. Luckly for your gurudeva, (like BS), he does not depend on certain disciples for true representation. I would imagine he is, like many of us are, dismayed. Thanks. I thought you might enjoy that, whoever you are? I would prefer to forget BV and BS. That is the only real fate they are fully worthy of, but it seems like my audience, such as it is, insists on making it an issue. Actually, before Fabiola mentioned that Shiva was virulently anti-BS, I didn't know this about him. I certainly don't follow his postings on other sites or even his own. Based on what he has posted here, in this site, which is all I read of his writing, he makes some good points. Let us look at a few: Shiva (or buddysattva): One of the first and most commonly reinforced memes taught in ISKCON is how they are better than everyone else; to the point of believing everyone else is demonic! That meme is reinforced on a daily basis in ISKCON circles, and in their teachings.
So it is not uncommon to see people who have imbibed such a narcissistic dualistic vision of themselves and the world around them, to treat people with a different vision than their own "perfect holy truth" as demons who are unworthy of any sort of treatment -- other than trying to "kill the demon." This I think is true and it accords with my experience of ISKCON way back when I ran with the wolf pack. It is also typical of personality cults, which ISKCON clearly was. Fortunately for me I got a close of view of the personality in question. I was around, for instance, when BV supposedly cursed an enemy in Juhu who was challenging his claim to the land there. The man died of some illness. Who knows what it was. I don't believe for a minute that the poor bloke was really killed by BV's curse. The sad and disgusting thing about it was the fact that he thought he did and he was glad of it. The so-called devotees, too, who were around at the time (me too I guess) all regarded the man and his family as a demon and thought he clearly deserved what he got. That is how dehumanized we became. I am ashamed I let that little brown man steal my humanity away from me so easily. He was completely immoral and taught us, his disciples, to be so too. This is not to condone or agree with everything that Shiva says or does, or even most of it. I know he holds some pretty ridiculous views of the nature of CV. He and I have butted heads on those issues in the past. Those of you who have followed our conversations over the years know this. He is not by any means a deceiver on the level that BV or BS were. They had our complete confidence. Shiva mostly has our ridicule. As for my relationship with my gurudeva, that is completely my own affair. You know nothing of him and never will. If I have overstepped my bounds and not met his hopes and expectations for me, that is something we will work out between us. I don't feel like he has rejected me or that he will ever do that, though I am sure I have disappointed him often enough. He is a genuine mahatma, unlike some of the imitators we have been discussing. Thanks for the support, but when dealing with certain types of people you will be disrespected unless you submit to them or their views, as you have seen. Some of my views may seem ridonkulous to some, but they are not coming from a place of exploitation or deception -- I have been honest with what I have written and have not attempted to deceive, what I have written is what I believe to be the truth. |
|
|
|
Post by Subal on May 24, 2009 17:46:35 GMT -6
Certainly that God is none of us Nitai, even you. So wish as you may western devotees go to hell, they are actually doing quite alright without your publications. A proof indeed that something is not exactly right with your theory of God's having failed in properly appear outside of Bengal.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 24, 2009 22:56:10 GMT -6
It infuriates me when I hear things like "Caitanya's mission." What mission? There is no mission. That is one of the most pernicious and despicable inventions of IGM. The idea of a "mission" was invented in imitation of the Ramkrishna Mission which was in its turn an imitation of the Baptist Mission. This is the most powerful form of deception invented by IGM, a meme able to impede or even destroy bhakti. I hesitate to call it a meme. That is too harmless sounding a term. It is a cancer.
Mahaprabhu did not come to missionize. He came to taste rasa from the position of Sri Radha; if people gain freedom through love by participating in that, then that is a little icing on the cake. As soon as one starts regarding chanting, bhajan, puja, or sankirtan as preaching or part of a mission, one is no longer on the path of bhakti as envisioned by CV. We do japa, bhajan, puja, and sankirtan not because we want to save or convert others, but as expressions of our own love for R + K. If we don't have any love yet, we imitate those who do. None of this has anything to do with spreading CV. It is difficult to remove this idea of mission from one's head once it is planted there. But, believe me, nothing could be a worse obstacle for the cultivation of bhakti.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 24, 2009 23:23:17 GMT -6
Certainly that God is none of us Nitai, even you. So wish as you may western devotees go to hell, they are actually doing quite alright without your publications. A proof indeed that something is not exactly right with your theory of God's having failed in properly appear outside of Bengal. Ah! Subal. You're here to advertise your new book, no doubt. What? Sales slow? Got to beat your drum in a public place? Fine. Beat away. Maybe you will get a follower or two. I hope you do, in fact. We have some western "devotees" who for some reason read parts of this site and you are clearly in a butt-kissing mood. Shall we include the sub-text? "They are actually doing quite alright (read my book, please; I'm not a narrow-minded traditionalist like Nitai; I'm still one of you, raised in deceit and fully equipped to accept and spread deception; you will feel right at home with me) without your publications." Did I get it right? Well I hope you get thousands of disciples (and all the headaches and bondage and torment they bring with them). I don't think I hold the theory you attribute to me. Anyway, your proof seems a little weak to me. I don't think any of these western devotees, as you call them, have a chance in hell of ever developing any bhakti, unless of course they have given up finally on IGM and gotten themselves properly initiated by some one in the real tradition. And for the record, I said that the western "devotees" can go to hell for all I care. That is not a wish that they do go to hell, but an expression of indifference if they choose that route. |
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 24, 2009 23:33:40 GMT -6
buddysattva said: Some of my views may seem ridonkulous to some, but they are not coming from a place of exploitation or deception -- I have been honest with what I have written and have not attempted to deceive, what I have written is what I believe to be the truth.
I believe you when you say this and accept it as true. That distinguishes you from the deceivers.
|
|
|
|
Post by Subal Not on May 25, 2009 8:04:42 GMT -6
Apologies Nitai, I used the pseudonym "Subal" and you got it mixed up with Subal from Hawaii etc. I did not intend to deceive passing for that your friend Subal but it happened. So apologies again.
You support Shiva where he said:
"Some of my views may seem ridonkulous to some, but they are not coming from a place of exploitation or deception -- I have been honest with what I have written and have not attempted to deceive, what I have written is what I believe to be the truth.
It seems that Bhaktivedanta Swami acted and thought exactly in the same way.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 25, 2009 11:44:11 GMT -6
Apologies Nitai, I used the pseudonym "Subal" and you got it mixed up with Subal from Hawaii etc. I did not intend to deceive passing for that your friend Subal but it happened. So apologies again. You support Shiva where he said: " Some of my views may seem ridonkulous to some, but they are not coming from a place of exploitation or deception -- I have been honest with what I have written and have not attempted to deceive, what I have written is what I believe to be the truth.It seems that Bhaktivedanta Swami acted and thought exactly in the same way. I thought that might be the case. Anyway, I thought it was him. I don't think you can say that we are friends. He used to hang out in this forum once upon a time. Now he is heavily into missionizing and building up his own following. More power to him. As for Bhaktivedanta, I once thought that of him. My take was that he was sincere but misguided. Now I am not so sure. Anyway, is this really that important? He is gone now. A more important issue, I believe, is whether my claim that missionizing is harmful to bhakti and not a part of the original, authentic CV is true or not. What evidence is there for or against? It seems an issue well worth discussing because of its impact on how we should approach CV and one potential area in which mainstream CV can be clearly distinguished from IGM. |
|
|
|
Post by backlash on May 25, 2009 12:41:16 GMT -6
There's enough bitterness, anger, hatred, finger pointing, pride and immaturity getting slung around on this board to fill a garbage dump. It seems to be a haven for sexually frustrated eggheads who fancy themselves intellectuals and philosophers. In fact -- the whole concept of this forum seems to be Nitai's pathetic need for recognition. Put the thing to bed. It would be a mercy killing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Able on May 25, 2009 13:31:51 GMT -6
Nitai, If you were speaking to an audience who has never had any contact with Gaudiya Vaisnavism, then churning Iskcon/GM issues is not so important, I would say. But even then, in the west the history cannot be ignored completely, you have to bring it into the debate, specially and precisely when speaking of missionarization versus untouched ortodoxy. I agree that the bulk of IGM has become a problem and better discarded at this point, but not all of it is useless. In fact, from that position (that IGM is 100% useless), one sets off from a false premise and can't therefore expect much more than renewed confusions and dead ends. My 2 cents.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 25, 2009 14:15:13 GMT -6
There's enough bitterness, anger, hatred, finger pointing, pride and immaturity getting slung around on this board to fill a garbage dump. It seems to be a haven for sexually frustrated eggheads who fancy themselves intellectuals and philosophers. In fact -- the whole concept of this forum seems to be Nitai's pathetic need for recognition. Put the thing to bed. It would be a mercy killing. Thanks for your input, backlash. You are well named. Yes, it is probably still in existence because I have a pathetic need for recognition. Don't we all? But what brings you back to this site? If it is so full of garbage why did you join and why do you keep coming back? Perhaps you have a taste for garbage? How would you satisfy that taste if this site were not here? Therefore, just for you I will keep the site open somewhat longer. Our pathetic needs seem to overlap. The original idea for the site was to create a space where some of the many aspects of CV could be discussed intelligently and critically. That never really materialized. Not sure why, but there is always a possibility that it will some day. I am an optimist. |
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 25, 2009 14:32:22 GMT -6
Nitai, If you were speaking to an audience who has never had any contact with Gaudiya Vaisnavism, then churning Iskcon/GM issues is not so important, I would say. But even then, in the west the history cannot be ignored completely, you have to bring it into the debate, specially and precisely when speaking of missionarization versus untouched ortodoxy. I agree that the bulk of IGM has become a problem and better discarded at this point, but not all of it is useless. In fact, from that position (that IGM is 100% useless), one sets off from a false premise and can't therefore expect much more than renewed confusions and dead ends. My 2 cents. You see, i am not sure who the audience is here. Many of those who post here as guests seem to know each other, but I know no one. I know roughly where the postings come from; Ohio, California, Florida, North Carolina. Occasionally, someone from the UK peeks in and from Holland and Mexico. So it appears to be a geographically diverse group. I can assume some knowledge of who Sri Caitanya was, but not that such knowledge was necessarily had from IGM. Certainly, it would be reasonable to assume that some percentage of those who look in are or were in IGM. The fact that they are looking in probably means that they have become disillusioned with IGM or are no longer satisfied with it. They are looking for something more. Backlash thinks the whole board should be shut down. He thinks I should be silenced, so he is probably still in IGM and would like to see the IGM deception continued. Alright, if IGM is not completely useless, then what use do you envision for it? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2009 15:32:19 GMT -6
Apologies Nitai, I used the pseudonym "Subal" and you got it mixed up with Subal from Hawaii etc. I did not intend to deceive passing for that your friend Subal but it happened. So apologies again. You support Shiva where he said: " Some of my views may seem ridonkulous to some, but they are not coming from a place of exploitation or deception -- I have been honest with what I have written and have not attempted to deceive, what I have written is what I believe to be the truth.It seems that Bhaktivedanta Swami acted and thought exactly in the same way. Why was he so adamant in his negativity and exclusion of his godbrothers to the point of what would normally be considered vaisnava aparadha? Because he was presenting a conception of Caitanya Vaisnavism which was centered around proselytizing being taught as the highest form of bhakti. He knew his godbrothers were not presenting that type of theology as Caitanya Vaisnavism, and when his disciples went to visit their ashrams they found them teaching something other than: "This world is hellish and everyone is a demon who will lure you into millions of lifetimes in hell, surrender to Krishna through Prabhupada or you will suffer for eternity, the only way "back to Godhead" which you were kicked out of because you didn't want to surrender to Krishna, is by serving Prabhupada because the guru is the person who knows Krishna and can get you back into heaven, but you have to "get his mercy", and the only way to get his mercy is to "please him", and the only way to please him is by total surrender to "spreading Krsna consciousness" aka expanding Prabhupada's and ISKCON's influence, power, wealth and size". Prabhupada knew he was presenting a deceptive form of Caitanya Vaisnavism, he had to know, he wasn't ignorant of the tradition, but he wanted to expand his fame and organization at all costs and so he changed the basic conception of "what is bhakti-yoga and how do you attain the goal?" from being dependent on a person's internal development and realization of tattva, into being dependent on some magical divine grace from a guru which is given to you when you "surrender to and please the guru". The tradition also taught that divine grace comes from a guru when you "surrender to and please a guru", but that divine grace came in the form of siksa and diksa, from which then your advancement to the goal of sadhana bhakti-yoga (bhava-bhakti) was dependent on your practice of sadhana and your ability to understand and internalize or realize the tattva of Bhagavat siddhanta. Whereas in ISKCON they were taught that "advancement" came from renunciation of anything but "devotional service" aka by serving Prabhupada 100% of your time, through some mystical magical transfer of "mercy" is how you "advance". That is why in ISKCON your level of "advancement" is based upon how renounced you are from anything but "service"; which is why materially ambitious people in ISKCON want to be sannyasis. Sannyasis are supposedly the most renounced; and therefore the most advanced. Therefore they are given the most amount of surrender and service by others in hopes of being mystically rewarded for serving them. If you can pretend to renounce everything in ISKCON then you will be given wealth, comforts and pleasures by submissive sycophants who believe they will gain some magical benefit by serving you. Prabhupada taught them that because he wanted to expand ISKCON, and his fame and power, at the expense of accurately presenting an authentic epistemological approach to Caitanya Vaisnavism. Prabhupada knowingly taught other deceptions as well; and for the same reasons: He taught that sex desire is how you measure someones level of "advancement". We are sexual beings with the goal of life being to end up in erotic pastimes. Sex desire is natural. But he taught people that they are sinful and fallen in the eyes of God if they desire sex; and that the only way to lose sex desire and get into God's good graces was to serve him. But, because sex desire is natural -- you will never be free from it as long as you are healthy. Therefore you will always be fallen and need to serve Prabhupada so he can magically save you from hell. He taught that marijuana was poison and sinful to take; claiming it was imitation of Shiva and would lead to death; even though there was no prohibition against it in the tradition. Plus it's hailed in the Vedas as sacred, and in the wider Vedic traditions as having powerful medicinal value along with the ability to make people joyful; and as aid in meditation. Marijuana is widely used by sadhus regularly, and by common Hindus everywhere on holy days like Shiv ratri and Holi. But he taught that it was poison and sinful because he wanted his followers working hard day and night for him and marijuana has a tendency to relax and make you want to enjoy life. It also makes people more introspective and better able to see that they are being exploited. He taught that it would be impossible for men to go to the moon because the demigods wouldn't allow them to set foot on the moon. He taught that during "the space race." That was when America and the USSR were vying for fame as advanced technological states by their space programs; with the ultimate goal of putting people on the moon. This started in the late 1950's and continued until the first Apollo mission in 1969, and it was in the news a lot of the time all around the world. All during that time Prabhupada would often preach; and even wrote a book Easy Journey to Other Planets; where he would ridicule 'modern demonic scientific civilization' as foolish because they thought they could physically go to a "heavenly planet" like the moon, when the Vedic scriptures state clearly you have to be qualified in order to be able to go to a heavenly planet -- through your piety and karma. This became a common preaching point for him for many years. But when the moon landings occurred he latched on to bogus conspiracy theories and would deny that they went to the moon. You could say that he really believed that, but not when you read this: He makes it clear that he was afraid of losing credibility as God's holy vessel by his preaching for so many years that going to the moon was impossible: "They have gone to moon planet. Then our whole propaganda, Krishna consciousness, becomes bogus. Therefore I always protest". It isn't the scriptures that say you can't go to the moon, it was Prabhupada who came up with that because he figured that they would fail in their attempt, therefore they were a good target for his ridicule of "demon civilization" which everyone should renounce. He also pushed misogyny by knowingly trying to deceive people about women's intelligence. His main focus in this regard was brain size, equating bigger brains with more intelligence. Even though anyone should know from experience many women and small men with smaller brains who are more intelligent than many large men (high school and college male athletes are famously stupid and big). Even though Vaisnava theology makes it clear that intelligence is based upon karma and Krishna (sarvasya cāhaḿ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaḿ ca), Prabhupada was determined to convince his followers that intelligence was based upon brain size. Why did he do that? Because he wanted a culture of renouncing women by the men so they would spend all of their time working for him, but at same time he wanted women followers because they were doing so much work for him. So he came up with the idea to tell his followers that it was alright if they married and it was alright for women to be part of his organization, but that women were fallen and sinful and stupid. This would kill two birds with one stone, or so he hoped. Women would feel fallen and lose self-respect and feel very dependent on Prabhupada to save them, and men would lose respect for women and give up trying to enjoy a relationship with them, even while married. There are more deceptions, but I think you should be able to see from these examples that Prabhupada wasn't ignorant or stupid, he did what he did on purpose because he believed that by deceiving, he and his work would benefit by gaining a more dedicated workforce. |
|
