Some Stray Thoughts

[Nitaidas]

I often am accused of being bitter. I don't understand why some people say this about me. Those who do tend not to know me very well. They have generally not read any of my works and I doubt that they know much about my history. I suppose such claims about me are based on something. Perhaps those who accuse me of being bitter know a little of my history and conclude from that that I must be bitter and then no matter what I do or say in their eyes I am bitter. In the past in various forums I have suggested that I thought that Bhaktivedanta Swami was a charlatan and that I felt cheated by him. Maybe that is the source of this belief that I must be bitter. Actually, I generally feel quite happy and maybe even blessed.

When I look back on my life up to the present, I sometimes feel as if I have a guardian of some sort looking over me. Nowadays I regard the time I spent in ISKCON as a period of rudimentary training. Not all of the memes I picked up then were pernicious. Those that were I have since recognized and taken steps to rid myself of. But, largely it was a rewarding experience that I am glad I went through. I am also glad that I had the courage and strength to end that association at the right time and strive for a higher association. There too I was blessed. I don't think I could have found any higher association than I did after leaving ISKCON.

And now I am also blessed. I love the work I do, though sometimes it seems tedious. My mind is active and inquisitive and has many areas of interest to which it is drawn. I have the opportunity and ability to achieve the goals I have set for myself. My only area of discontent is that I am a slow and fussy worker. Therefore, I do not complete things very quickly. That sometimes torments me, but I must always remind myself that I do manage to complete things. What then is there to be bitter about? I have everything I need and most of what I want?

Still, I suppose that those who want to see me a bitter will still see me as bitter.

[Nitaidas]

I figured I would just try in this thread to think a little bit. It does a body good to spend a few minutes each day thinking about things.

I just finished a sweet poem by Govinda Das in praise of Sri Rama (look inside the forum for that). It was apparently written for another disciple of Srinivasa Acarya, Hari Narayana, the lord or king of Sikhara Bhumi. King Hari Narayana was a great bhakta of Sri Rama and yet he wanted to take initiation from Srinivasa Acarya. The Acarya, knowing what a bhakta of Rama the king was, arranged for someone initiated into Rama worship to come and give the king the Rama mantra. Can we conclude anything from this example about how we should relate to worshipers of other forms of Krsna (including Siva and Sakti) and to worshipers of other forms of Bhagavan (Allah, Yahweh, Ein Sof, etc)?

I have been reading a good deal of Meister Eckhart lately. What an extraordinary man! There are many reverberations and resonances between his thought and the Hindu-Vaisnava tradition. The whole business of emptying oneself in order to be filled by God is an extraordinarily powerful way of representing the movement towards intimacy with the divine. In a single swoop it encompasses detachment, knowledge and love. It is no wonder that the Catholic church was so quick to condemn him, a condemnation that still stands on the books today..

Here is an a little legendary dialogue about him:

Meister Eckhart met a beautiful naked boy.
He asked him where he came from.
He said: "I come from God."
Where did you leave him?
"In virtuous hearts."
Where are you going?
"To God."
Where do you find him?
"Where I part with all creatures."
Who are you?
"A king."
Where is your kingdom?
"In my heart."
Take care that no one divide it with you!
"I shall."
Then he led him to his cell.
Take whichever coat you will.
"Then I should be no king!"
And he disappeared.
For it was God himself---
Who was having a bit of fun.

[Vaishnava Seminars]

Yes, I'm with you on that, Nitai.

Recently I was invited to a masjid (mosque) that was holding an "interfaith conference".

Various representatives from various spiritual paths were there to represent. I represented "Hinduism".

When I was called to the podium to speak, I first shared how my own maternal grandfather was a Musim from Turkey, who, upon arrival in the United States about 100 years ago, give or take, was required to anglicize his name. At the time there were no mosques in the US where he could worship, at least not in his area (Kentucky), however there were several Turkish people because at the time the United States was bringing young Turks over to work in the coal mines, hence my grandfather was able to keep his native tongue alive in conversation with other Turks working the coal mines.

I don't know if back in Turkey my grandfather was a strict follower of Islam or not. All I know is that we was from a Muslim family. However, the point I made to the group was that now, 100 years later it brings joy to my heart to see so many mosques and beautiful Islamic communties in the States that if he were alive today, my grandfather could participate and worship according to the rituals of Islam if he should choose to do so.

I drew parrallels between the namas and gunas of Allah that are described in the Quran and between the name-rupa-guna-lila concept in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Islam has developed the themes of nama and guna, Gaudiya Vaishnavism has upped the ante with rupa and lila added to nama and guna.

Of course the namas in Islam are related to what would be considered Divine Source's attributes in relation to the workings of the material sphere, what is termed by some "gauna nama", and Divine Source's namas in relation to lila are termed by some as "mukhya nama" - something that Islam does not delve into (lila).

But whatever.

It warmed my heart to see so many different religious paths (8) gathered together at the mosque that evening and SHARING amongst ourselves the unifying factors of all our believe systems.

After everyone spoke we all joined our Muslim sisters and brothers in the offering of salat, namaz to Allah, side by side.

How amazing to see 8 different religions (including Christianity) open to participating in a Muslim ritual!

And something else that was noteworthy about the evening was that aside from 2 men, who were representing Islam and Buddhism, all the leading representatives of the rest 6 religions were women.

I think that also says something about the direction of spirituality in this new millenium.

It's all about love, baby.

I also took that all the food served at the mosque that evening was pure vegetarian.

At the end of it all the Imam of the mosque approached me with his card and asked me to help him form an interfaith group in the area.

Sri Radha Ho Akbar!

[Nitaidas]

It sounds delightful, Vaisnava. Thanks for sharing that. It is great to hear about various religious groups opening their doors to other religions and apparently also opening their hearts. There is so much in common and yet there is much that separates them.

It has always been rather interesting to me that those religious traditions that are most far apart in history and belief are the ones that often are most able and willing to befriend and cooperate with each other. On the other hand, religious traditions that are almost exactly alike and that share most of their history are the most bitter foes. One would think the opposite would hold true, but it doesn't. This strange phenomenon is evident in the bitter rivalry and hatred Iskcon has for GM and vice versa and, of course, my own uncharitable attitudes towards both. Yet, we all think Caitanya Mahaprabhu is number one and we all prize sankirtana and japa of the Holy Names which we all agree are best represented in the Mahamantra. Why do we hate each others' guts then? It seems totally irrational and mean-spirited. Why do I hate IGM and why do they hate me and my tradition? One aspect of this problem is that all the little things seem to matter a lot more when traditions are so close.

If I were in an Iskcon temple, would I bow down to Radha and Krsna on the altar? If not, why not? Would it be because there too are the pictures and images of Bhaktivedanta or Bhaktisiddhanta whom I don't regard as siddha? Or, is it because I would doubt whether Radha and Krsna were actually inhabiting those images because of improper or impotent installation? So one would from this point of view be bowing down to a block of stone or a hunk of metal. It might be easier in some ways for me to bow down in a mosque in the direction of Mecca than it would be to bow down in an IGM temple.

[Vaishnava Seminars]

Good points Nitai.

Though I've not come across the "hatred" you speak of above, in any direction - back or forth or sideways. The reason for that is probably because I am a freelance agent that does not belong to any "sanga", though I have do have a guru.

As a woman it would be impossible for me to "join" any male dominated sanga or sub-sanga of any religion. That is out of the question.

But I have thought about the points you are making above, because, although I have not come across "hatred", I have come across "disagreements" between individuals who fancy themselves members of this or that cult/sanga/parivara/whatever.

And I've noted that it is much easier for me right now to mix, mingle and a discuss bhakti amongst non-vaishnavas than it is for me to do the same in any of the current cults/sangas/parivaras/whatevers that I have been exposed to in India and around the world.

Why is that?

I think there is a "family dynamic" at work here.

Just like we become most frustrated with those who are closest to us - like a lover, spouse, mom, dad, bro, sis, daughter, or son, whereas the people we make acquaintance with on a casual basis in day to day life - we tend not to be bothered by them.

This is because we are not emotionally invested in them anywhere near the same extent we are with our bosom friends, lovers or family members.

I'll give you an example of what I mean by "emotionally invested".

For a certain period in my life I had the good fortune of being a neighbor to Sri Radha-raman, that cute little glossy black trickster with the "to-die-for" physique located near Nidhuvana in Brindaban.

As I was a regular face at his home, the mandir located within Radha-raman Ghera, showing up for arotiks, kirtans, kathas, mohatsavas and what have you, I was privy to some of the goings on in his 'hood amongst his own peeps.

First observation: where are the women?

I mean the women of the Gosai parivara that inhabits Radha-raman Ghera and the surrounding neighborhood.

Did you know that all of the Gosai wives and bahus live in purdah? Yes, they come out for darshan but with their faces covered by the palloos of their saris, like Saudi women.

You will often find the Gosai men - the various "Padmas" and their sons, brothers, cousins, fathers, roaming the streets and talking to Brij basis in the area, but not the Gosai women.

When you see the women go anywhere, it's face covered ala Saudi/Afghan style, in the company of men, and they are quickly put into vehicles to take them anywhere.

On more than one occasion I was inside Gosai homes and the women conduct themselves in that old, medieval, Rajasthani purdah style behaviour of being seen (barely-face still covered in the home in front of certain "superior" MALE family members and guests), but not heard.

The first time I ever had prasad with a Gosai family, several years ago, the host, I think one of the "Padmas", boasted that the same flame has been used to cook Radha-raman's prasad for hundreds of years (they keep it burning), and NEVER in the history of cooking for Radha-raman has a women been allowed to cook for him.

Um, what? Rewind. And I'm supposed to be impressed with that?

I would have cried over that statement if it wasn't so friggin' laughable. And the man stated it like it was something good.

Talk about clueless.

Anyway, what does this have to do with me? I don't have diksha in their line, nor am I a card-carrying member of their parivara.

Yet, it does irk me precisely because we are related under the umbrella of Mahaprabhu, and I love going for darshan and events at Sri Radha-raman Mandir.

And to see all these westerners wax elegant about the mahima of this parivar and its traditions and how so-and-so Gosai is, "like, so awesome"......ooooooh it makes me cringe.

And the girls will clamor to make friends with that young, cute one but to no avail. His family will arrange his marriage to a Hindu brahmin girl with a good education who will have to spend the rest of her educated life in the kitchen, serving the men of the Radha-raman Gosai parivar and wearing a face covering in the middle of the hot, 100 degree plus summer in order just to go downstairs and have darshan of Thakruji.


But you know what? I'll still greet that Gosai with a smile, a folded-namaskar-palms and a "radhe! radhe!"

Why? Not because I'm down with what he or his family represent, but because its culturally polite to do so. And it doesn't affect my bhajan in a negative way to do so.

And most of all, because that entire family, despite its medieval dysfunctions, are in fact vaishnavas.

By nodding, pranaming and radhe-radhe-ing them, I am not honoring that family exclusively, I am honoring all vaishnavas and jeevs.

There is no harm.

Anyway, that's my theory, for now.

I have no problem bowing down to murtis in any temples or even honoring pictures of gender-biased men who keep their bahus trapped in the house 24/7 or who, if they have no bahus of their own, still expect the wives of their male disciples to act in a similar fashion because it is "bharatiya sanskriti".

I'll still show them some basic respect, as humans and as "vaishnavas"......because I am emotionally invested.

But I will not become a groupie for them or join their sanga/cult/parivar/whatever.....
....because I'm emotionally involved.


Don't know if I made my point or not. I got off on a tangent in trying to illustrate something.

Bottom line, when you belong to no group, you can honor them all equally, I guess. And also see the dysfunctions in them all equally as well.



PS: all the disagreements between various vaishnava groups in India that I have seen have all been voiced by men. Still have no idea what Indian female vaishnavas think about all of it.

Strange.

[subala]

If I were in an Iskcon temple, would I bow down to Radha and Krsna on the altar? If not, why not? Would it be because there too are the pictures and images of Bhaktivedanta or Bhaktisiddhanta whom I don't regard as siddha? Or, is it because I would doubt whether Radha and Krsna were actually inhabiting those images because of improper or impotent installation? So one would from this point of view be bowing down to a block of stone or a hunk of metal. It might be easier in some ways for me to bow down in a mosque in the direction of Mecca than it would be to bow down in an IGM temple.

Mmm? This is strange. I feel you are being a tad extreme here, and you wonder why you are accused of being bitter.

I have just finished reading your translation of Nectar of The Holy Name, and like the other books of yours I've read, I liked it. I've read about how you came to your Gurudeva in the delightful Sadhu Sadhu, yet I don't understand where your hatred towards IGM comes from. I refuse to believe it comes from your Gurudeva since your Guru-bhai Binoda Bihari Baba addresses respect in his wonderful Obstacles in Bhakti (BTW, This book needs to published in English! Hint Hint ).

I recommend reading Identity and Violence: The Illusion of Destiny by Amartya Sen. Sen notes several popular ways of dealing with identity. One he calls "identity disregard", and another is "singular affiliation".

In "identity disregard" we dismiss all shared identity, and treat each person as, in our case, a "IGM devotee" or a "Traditional Caitanya Vaisnava".

"Singular affiliation" on the other hand, defines people by their membership in one (only one) of their many social circles. This can be an externally imposed label, as in stereotypes of what IGM devotees or what Traditional Caitanya Devotees are.

This book is a relatively short discussion of the illegitimacy of ascribing single identity to groups.

I respect anyone who chants Harinama and is trying to develop love for Yugala-kisora. This-sanga-that-sanga-my-sanga-your-sanga mentality is in my opinion anti vaisnava and anti love. Like Vaisnava, here, I'm not a member of any group, although I, too, have a guru.

Bottom line, when you belong to no group, you can honor them all equally, I guess. And also see the dysfunctions in them all equally as well.

;D

Vaishnava, sounds like you had fun at the mosque. Check out Rabia al-Adawiyya the great Sufi saint from Iraq.

I think a women led vaisnava group would be gentler...

[Bitch Sahajiya]

Vaisnava,
Are you still a follower of Narayan Maharaja?

[Nitaidas]

Good point, subala. It does seem inconsistent for me to say that I am not bitter and yet that I hate IGM. I think the problem arises from a kind of confusion. A lot depends on the source of my hatred for IGM. Of course, hatred is a strong term and I don't think the kind of animosity I feel towards IGM is really a species of hatred. Nor does it arise from some sort of personal disappointment which would then be a species of bitterness. My hatred, well okay, strong animosity towards IGM is based on the way those organizations, singly and collectively, have distorted and trivialized, and yes, in my view, even corrupted a tradition about which I care a great deal.

It is not a matter of personal bitterness. What have I to be bitter about? I came out of the deal way ahead. ISKCON was a transitional stage that eventually led me into the presence of real Vaisnavas. From that point of view I owe much to ISKCON. It is true that some of the "crossings" were troubled and problematic. I literally had to disappear for those first few months after I left ISKCON. But I disappeared into the presence of my Gurudeva who fortunately liked to do his bhajana in lonely, out of the reach places in Vraja. Afterward I heard that Bhaktivedanta had been cursing me for months in just about every lecture he gave. But, just as the great sadhu Ananta Das Babaji of Govindakund had assured me, those curses and that anger had no effect on me. They rolled off me like water on a duck's wings. Instead, he was dead in two years. So there is no reason whatsoever for me to be bitter.

It is the misrepresentation of Caitanya Vaisnavism by IGM that has aroused my animosity. They made CV into a laughing stock in the West. I doubt that it can be taken seriously in the West any more except by a handful of kooks and emotionally unstable neurotics. I am frankly ashamed to admit in public that I belong to the tradition because of the negative impressions of it fostered by IGM. Fortunately, public memory is relatively short and those adverse impressions will eventually fade away. I hope that those impressions of the ridiculous will be replaced something more serious and sublime.

These days I mostly push the idea that CV and the religion of IGM are really different religions, in their relationship to each other similar to that which holds between Judaism and Christianity. IGM has taken our texts and misinterpreted them in ways similar to the ways Christianity has misinterpreted the OT. And in addition, it has created a set of its own texts in the works of Bhaktivinode, Bhaktisiddhanta, Bhaktivedanta, Shridhar Swami, and Narayana Maharaja. Perhaps in a few years some sort of IGM canon will develop. Meanwhile those of us in the mainstream tradition will try to preserve our scriptural treasures and promote mainstream readings and interpretations of them much like one finds in the Talmud of Judaism. This is the way I see things developing.

[Nitaidas]

Vaishnava, what you say is not true of all Goswami wives. It is certainly not true of the wives of the Goswamis who live in Bengal. The Gopal Bhatta Goswami community is certainly more traditional and conservative than most Goswami practitioners. Even then I have noticed there are differences among individuals within that community. I once went on a tour with Srivatsa Goswami. We traveled out to Barsana for darsana and prasada and along with us went his sister who was married to another Goswami. She was not hidden behind any veil. In fact, we struck up a conversation and it was quite pleasant. Nor was it frowned upon by Srivatsa Goswami or his father who was also traveling with us. Maybe since she did not live in the compound, rules were more lax for her. Anyway, the rules are a lot less stringent in Bengal. There is nevertheless much progress that needs to be made.

[Vaishnava Seminars]

Nitai, I was specifically talking about the Gosais who live in and around Sri Radha-ramanji compound. That parivara is large and they have family members that live in Delhi and Mumbai and elsewhere and I would be surprised if they still do the purdah thang. But its the family in and around the compound that get the most global PR.

I remember once I was somewhere and I picked up this very well put together magazine, I forget what it is called. It was either a woman's magazine and that month's issue was about spirituality or it was a spiritual magazine and that month's issue was about women.

Anyway, every article was written by a member of a different faith, describing womens' history within that faith. One of the Padmas had an article in there about Sri Radha. It was a nice article. But he was writing about how Gaudiya Vaishnavism has always given special place to the feminine principal and that women today have lost their true power because they are trying to compete with men. Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I thought, "how ironic it is that this man is writing about honoring women and their shakti yet he lives in a purdah compound", and the fact that he just waxed eleqount about 'ideas' instead of talking about the grass roots reality of how women in his tradition are really treated, it was just so laughable for me. So the reader would walk away with the impression that this man is some sort of champion of the feminine principle - both mundane and transcendent, and it would never strike them that he is coming from one of the most regressive cultures on earth when it comes to this sort of thing, and is in fact a participant in the regression. I mean, the magazine should have had a Gosai women write an article, why a Gosai man? Doesn't make sense.

Ironic. Ironic. Ironic.

But somehow people don't put 2 and 2 together.

I think I have your same roque Nitai, but my symptoms are set off by Bharatiya Sanskriti and your's set off by IGM. ha. ha.

It's all good.

;D

[Stray Talk]

Bitch Sahajiya,

Since cat seems to have eaten Toongi's tongue, I will answer that question for you: In the strict sense, no she is not a follower of Narayan Maharaja. She likes to claim to understand the true essence of NM and therefore possibly be his one real follower. But NM has no idea how far from his isntructions she has gone. She keeps things from him, not too hot about sharing with the guru...

Toongi wants an army of amazons with obliteration of all malenism in the tradition. Needless to say this extremist feminism goes directly against the spirit of GM. If it never flew in Bharatiya Sanskriti, it certainly isn't about to fly in GM. NM makes sure it doesn't. His most recent sannyasa award was to a 23 year old very promising boy. The women in GM are told they can take to renounciation but its never officiated. And never outside of male supervision.

Toongi is doing her own thing. And hiding it from guru.

Subal,

Thanks for addressing Nitai's spiritual/emotional issues. Very therapeutic for him we see.

[Vaishnava Seminars]

Hello Bhagavat.

;D

You are a character!

[Biitch Sahajiya]

Well at least she has found a home to espouse her agenda, she was such fun at GD some time back!

[Vaishnava Seminars]

Nitai, I'm sorry that my obsessive/compulsive male stalkers like Big Boy Bhagu, Sridam and/or Syam, have followed me to your non IGM website and attempted to bring in IGM katha.

They certainly put the I in IGM.

For your sake, as a person who was fortunate enough to leave all your iskcon memes behind, I will direct them to my masala-less blog so they can crush on me over there;

www.bluecupid108.blogspot.com

Message to the boys: Ever hear of the film based on the book titled, "He's Just Not That Into You"

Well, this is Nitai's site and he's "just not that into IGM", ok?

Give it a rest already.

Now, Subal and Nitai, you can get back to speaking of universal principals that have nothing to do with organizations......

(Nitai, I know you know that you are fortunate... but man, I don't think you know HOW fortunate you are. I mean, I still gotta deal with these peeps on some rudimentary level)

But me and my peeps get a kick out of it sometimes...

If nothing else the I in IGM provides some good comic material, right Subal?

[subala]

Since cat seems to have eaten Toongi's tongue, I will answer that question for you: In the strict sense, no she is not a follower of Narayan Maharaja. She likes to claim to understand the true essence of NM and therefore possibly be his one real follower. But NM has no idea how far from his isntructions she has gone. She keeps things from him, not too hot about sharing with the guru...

Very unvaisnava like behaviour. No disciple of a guru knows what is going on the in heart of another disciple. Wait a minute! Are you claiming that you do? Wow!

Just because she doesn't subscribe to the Iskcon sastra dumping (sorry book distribution!) model, that people who have spent too much time in Iskcon subscribe to, doesn't mean she has gone from her guru. Does being a strict follower mean being a Iskcon clone? Sheesh what is it with you Iskcon types?

I'm sure Toongi recalls the time when Vrndavana Vilasani was told to stand up by Srila Narayana Maharaja and tell everyone there (30-40 DEVOTEES) that all her 15+ years of sastra dumping (oops! book distribution) was a total waste of time. Go ask anyone who was there before the Iskcon cancer came and ask about the number of times Maharaja said that sastra dumping (oops! book distribution) was not bhakti! No doubt our esteemed friend will post loads of quotes from Maharaja to bolster his sastra dumping cult views. I prefer he did it else where!

It is the misrepresentation of Caitanya Vaisnavism by IGM that has aroused my animosity. They made CV into a laughing stock in the West. I doubt that it can be taken seriously in the West any more except by a handful of kooks and emotionally unstable neurotics. I am frankly ashamed to admit in public that I belong to the tradition because of the negative impressions of it fostered by IGM. Fortunately, public memory is relatively short and those adverse impressions will eventually fade away. I hope that those impressions of the ridiculous will be replaced something more serious and sublime.

These days I mostly push the idea that CV and the religion of IGM are really different religions, in their relationship to each other similar to that which holds between Judaism and Christianity. IGM has taken our texts and misinterpreted them in ways similar to the ways Christianity has misinterpreted the OT. And in addition, it has created a set of its own texts in the works of Bhaktivinode, Bhaktisiddhanta, Bhaktivedanta, Shridhar Swami, and Narayana Maharaja. Perhaps in a few years some sort of IGM canon will develop. Meanwhile those of us in the mainstream tradition will try to preserve our scriptural treasures and promote mainstream readings and interpretations of them much like one finds in the Talmud of Judaism. This is the way I see things developing.

Nitai, I fully understand as I refuse to call myself a Hare Krishna since that refers to Iskcon and I don't want to identifed with this cult or any cult. Iskcon has damaged our public image with their fundamentalism and sastra dumping. The kooks and neurotics are now sannyasis! ;D

I see the sastra dumping cult(s) as a different religion too.

Toongi wants an army of amazons with obliteration of all malenism in the tradition. Needless to say this extremist feminism goes directly against the spirit of GM. If it never flew in Bharatiya Sanskriti, it certainly isn't about to fly in GM. NM makes sure it doesn't. His most recent sannyasa award was to a 23 year old very promising boy. The women in GM are told they can take to renounciation but its never officiated. And never outside of male supervision.

This is just plain rude, and speaks volumes about our illustrious friend. Lets look at his choice of words:

• army of amazons = sexual fantasy?
  
• obliteration of all malenism = an Opedial Complex
  
• extremist feminism goes directly against the spirit of GM= No women's issues allowed
  
• And never outside of male supervision = I am Man-god and you, Toongi, must worship me.

I suppose we should "beat our women like mrdangas" too.

Mmm...I was shocked when I heard about the awarding of sannyas to a 23 year old boy. I wonder if history is repeating itself.

Subal, Thanks for addressing Nitai's spiritual/emotional issues. Very therapeutic for him we see.

I've done no such thing. Any issues Nitai has are for him to sort out. I have more respect for Nitai than I do for sastra dumping fundamentalists.