subala
Junior Member
Posts: 67
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Post by subala on Apr 22, 2009 4:53:29 GMT -6
In case you're wondering what a sastra dump is, I'll explain. Iskcon style book distribution involves sastra such as Srimad Bhagavata Gita etc which invariably ends up being thrown into a garbage can because most people don't read or grasp our philosophy. It's worth noting that only 5% of the population actually read regularly. Imagine our beautiful sastra, which all Vaisnavas regard as non different from the Lord, being placed in such a dirty place along side cigarette butts, empty beer bottles, hamburger wrappers etc. Think of millions of books in such deplorable places. Don't claim it's bhakti because it's not! It's sastra dumping!  |
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Post by Stray thinker on Apr 22, 2009 7:40:00 GMT -6
For those who decide to be analists of IGM but have beforehand already declared themselves hatrers of those institutions, well how fair, balanced and accurate their analysis is going to be? Physician cure thyself.
So I am not going to waste time addressing your opinion of IGM. The point in discussion is that the guru in question does have a standard of relating to his disciples and when a disciple disregard that standard, then it is her behavior which is in question. I believe the person who asked her the question "are you still a follower of NM?" was addressing exactly that. Her actions are contradictory. Subal you may believe that a disciple may keep secrets from her guru and you are entitled to that opinion but the point here is, you are not her guru. Her guru has a different opinon and expects that she will respond to <b>that</b>. She may decide that she no longer concurs with her guru's opinion, but to be fair and civil to those she offers her seminars to, she should make that position clear, at least when asked directly. To disregard everyone's right to know such important detail is to inccur in the same condenscending attitude IGM has shown through their history. Hence, again, physician cure thyself.
Not many people question the freedom any one has nowadays to come and go from all the many institutions and groups out there. People come and go as they please and it is not a great big deal anymore whether one does or not. We are becoming a greater community, whether we like it or not. So when one hides the nature and degree of one's loyalty to one's guru, that speaks more of one's own uncertainty about one's own stand than about the sate of affairs inside groups one claim to be prepared to help. So once again, physician, first understand more clearly what you are talking about.
Respects to all.
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 22, 2009 9:29:58 GMT -6
Subal, don't take Bhagavat seriously. Nobody else does.  |
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 23, 2009 0:06:04 GMT -6
Nitai, I'm sorry that my obsessive/compulsive male stalkers like Big Boy Bhagu, Sridam and/or Syam, have followed me to your non IGM website and attempted to bring in IGM katha. They certainly put the I in IGM.  For your sake, as a person who was fortunate enough to leave all your iskcon memes behind, I will direct them to my masala-less blog so they can crush on me over there; www.bluecupid108.blogspot.comMessage to the boys: Ever hear of the film based on the book titled, "He's Just Not That Into You"  Well, this is Nitai's site and he's "just not that into IGM", ok? Give it a rest already. Now, Subal and Nitai, you can get back to speaking of universal principals that have nothing to do with organizations...... (Nitai, I know you know that you are fortunate... but man, I don't think you know HOW fortunate you are. I mean, I still gotta deal with these peeps on some rudimentary level) But me and my peeps get a kick out of it sometimes... If nothing else the I in IGM provides some good comic material, right Subal? Yes, I guess they think of you, Vaishnava, as a hot property. It hurts when one losses a valuable possession. It sends a shock-wave through the rest of the organism. A piece has fallen off. It then becomes apparent that the organism is leprous. Anyway, you are welcome here. You are thoughtful and sensitive and we largely agree on the diseased condition of Bharatiya Sanskrti. I have advocated for a long time the purging of BS from CV. Unfortunately, it has become like a cancer and has wrapped its tumors so tightly around the organs of the body of CV that it is hard to remove them without damaging the host. But, remove them we must if the organism is to survive. The dogs who pursue you, nipping at your heels, are also welcome. We will throw them some bones of contention if they are hungry. Who is afraid of some mangy mutts? My Gurudev felt no animosity or hatred towards towards anyone, what to speak of IGM. Nevertheless, he did not regard the members of IGM as initiated members of the Caitanya Vaisnava community. When I came to him, there was no doubt in his mind that I needed to be initiated, though I had received initiation from Bhaktivedanta, both Harinama and Mantra. So he put me on a program of purification similar to the purascarya or mantra purification described in shastra. He ordered me to do three lakhs of Harinama every day and I was not allowed to do any other seva. When we ate I was not allowed to sit with the others because I was not initiated. It is a great honor to be allowed to sit in line (pankti) with the other Vaisnavas and honor prasad with them. I was only allowed that honer after I had been given the mantras. Sometimes one's name is also changed, but who would change a name like Nitai Das? Anyway, that is the reality of the Vaisnava world I was introduced to after I left ISKCON. I doubt that your seminar will make any headway against that fundamental form of Vaisnava etiquette. It points to the fundamental importance of proper diksa. Without proper diksa kichui habe na. It is in many respects like "the wall of the Sabath" that kept for so long the Jewish communities separated from the gentile communities in which they otherwise lived. Another issue is learning proper sadacar, habits of ritual purity that are necessary for the proper chanting of mantra and performance of puja. These practices have a profound effect on the mind in preparing it to approach the "presence," through mantra smarana and puja, respectfully. Anyway, these are important issues that shape the way Vaisnavas relate to each other and their God. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 23, 2009 0:44:12 GMT -6
For those who decide to be analists of IGM but have beforehand already declared themselves hatrers of those institutions, well how fair, balanced and accurate their analysis is going to be? Physician cure thyself. So I am not going to waste time addressing your opinion of IGM. The point in discussion is that the guru in question does have a standard of relating to his disciples and when a disciple disregard that standard, then it is her behavior which is in question. I believe the person who asked her the question "are you still a follower of NM?" was addressing exactly that. Her actions are contradictory. Subal you may believe that a disciple may keep secrets from her guru and you are entitled to that opinion but the point here is, you are not her guru. Her guru has a different opinon and expects that she will respond to <b>that</b>. She may decide that she no longer concurs with her guru's opinion, but to be fair and civil to those she offers her seminars to, she should make that position clear, at least when asked directly. To disregard everyone's right to know such important detail is to inccur in the same condenscending attitude IGM has shown through their history. Hence, again, physician cure thyself. Not many people question the freedom any one has nowadays to come and go from all the many institutions and groups out there. People come and go as they please and it is not a great big deal anymore whether one does or not. We are becoming a greater community, whether we like it or not. So when one hides the nature and degree of one's loyalty to one's guru, that speaks more of one's own uncertainty about one's own stand than about the sate of affairs inside groups one claim to be prepared to help. So once again, physician, first understand more clearly what you are talking about. Respects to all. It is not a matter of "beforehand," Mr. Bhagavat, or whoever you are. I spent six years in ISKCON living as everything from a lowly temple brahmacari, to a temple president householder, to a personal, traveling secretary to Bhaktivedanta Swami charged with the responsibility of collecting and editing his translations the morning after he made them. I saw ISKCON from all sides. My animosity towards is based on personal experiences and a deep familiarity with the books. In addition, I got to know BVS very intimately. At times I used to give him his daily massages. If anyone has good grounds to analyze and reject IGM, I do. Moreover, the relationship between the guru and the disciple is regulated by the scriptures, not whatever the guru or the disciple for that matter imagines it to be. Though one may have many siksa gurus at the same time or consecutively, one can have only one diksa guru at a time. If that guru is a fool, the scriptures advise honoring him or her from a distance. The reason is that a foolish guru is bound to go astray sooner or later and if one lives close to him one will also be dragged off the path. So one can get by with a fool for a guru, but if that guru calumniates Vaisnavas, then he is to be roundly rejected. That is the only condition under which rejection of the guru is allowed. It was only after I realized that this was the case that I felt justified in leaving Bhaktivedanta Swami. I was of course under the illusion at the time that Bhaktivedanta was a real guru, that is, that he had been properly initiated in an authentic lineage from one of Mahaprabhu's disciples. So the question of Vaisnava-ninda turned out to be a moot point, in the final analysis. |
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Post by Vaishnava Seminars on Apr 23, 2009 6:13:12 GMT -6
I've reported Joseph Sylvestor's (aka Bhagavat's) obsession with, and stalking of, myself to the proper legal authorities. They say that no matter how small, cases such as these cannot be underestimated because a small obsession can often escalate into a major crime. I've read Monkey On A Stick and other cult exposes and I'm not taking any chances. Sorry again Nitai, that this had to come to your site. There is a saying, "things don't happen to us, they happen for us". Naturally I'm using this experience to form yet another seminar/workshop. I don't expect after reading this that Joseph Sylvester (aka Bhagavat) will be back. But if so, it helps with my case.  |
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 23, 2009 16:41:17 GMT -6
I've reported Joseph Sylvestor's (aka Bhagavat's) obsession with, and stalking of, myself to the proper legal authorities. They say that no matter how small, cases such as these cannot be underestimated because a small obsession can often escalate into a major crime. I've read Monkey On A Stick and other cult exposes and I'm not taking any chances. Sorry again Nitai, that this had to come to your site. There is a saying, "things don't happen to us, they happen for us". Naturally I'm using this experience to form yet another seminar/workshop. I don't expect after reading this that Joseph Sylvester (aka Bhagavat) will be back. But if so, it helps with my case. Wow! This is more serious than I imagined. I thought he was just a guru-cyborg who wanted to give trouble to a suspected guru-tyagi. I am sorry to hear this. It is no problem for me. it is you that I worry about. I hope you live far away from each other. Don't worry about my being bothered. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 23, 2009 16:48:01 GMT -6
On a separate note, how do you handle the problem of commensalism in your seminars, Vaisnava? Has it ever come up?
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 23, 2009 17:02:32 GMT -6
Here is a delightful little poem from the works of Hadewijch, a woman mystic from among the Beguines who may have influenced Eckhart.
[Mengeldicht 26]
I will approach love gladly
If i have the power to reach the heart.
But no one will sing there with me
Who mingles with creatures.
Naked love who spares nothing
In her wild death
Stripped of all accident
Recovers her simple unity
In Love's pure abandon
No created good can subsist;
For Love strips of all form
Those she receives in her simplicity.
Free from all modes,
Strangers to every image,
This is the true life
of the poor in spirit.
True poverty is not simply
Exile and begging for bread.
The poor in spirit must live
Without notions in a vast simplicity.
Without end or beginning,
Without form, modality, reason or sense,
Neither opinion, thought, attention, nor knowing,
One that is boundless and without limit.
In this wild wide simplicity
Live the poor in spirit in unity;
Nothing is there except silent emptiness
For answering to eternity.
I've had my say in a short porm,
But the way is long as I well know,
And those who want to finish the course
Endure much suffering.
[From McGinn, Meister Eckhart and the Beguine Mystics, p 34-5.]
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Post by mad mouse on Apr 23, 2009 20:25:40 GMT -6
i doubt Bhagwat would want to lay a hand on miss vaisnava. She must be decades pass menopause. Could be the noises in her head made her report him to the police for stalking. If they were living near each other they woudn't need to come here to talk. Being stalked doesn't make you a sex celebrity. If the seminar workshop she is planning is about uniting all faiths under one umbrella, its nothing but the same old bragging horse piss kitchree. People who imagine themselves jagat guru, such as the Lama deploy these kinds of tactics - I am world teacher . the rest are invited to join me. A teacher should first teach himself. Just a scan of Nitai's translations sitting right under your nose should hit the bullet in your heart that here is something fit to be studied even by a jagat guru. I feel any sincere vaisnava would feel that response. So if Nitai is called to address the seminar from his perspective, it would be an educating experience for the participants. He shouldn't be expected to spew the same juiceless peace and love stupid interfaith bullshit. Also it would be helpful if he got his ass out there with the people reading his books. The impact would be stronger if he appeared personally. A penis growing out of the ass of his icon of is not amusing. Its obscene. It looks like a backsided gay raping somebody. A facial with tilak and chandan would be more uplifting for us viewers. Remember Hinduism is captivating Amererica these days, so the time has come to set aside the shame about wearing vaisnava symbols. What the hell is this Chaitanya Symposium anyway?. Chaitanayites blend cordially on the basis of pleasing Chaiitanya. But this Symposium is a shitty hell hole...it hurts my head. I'm ashamed that something like this is associated with Chaitanya. If you all were doing sincere mantra and leela katha regularly you wouldn't be here hunting rats to capture eat.You'd be spending your time trying to develop prem and sharing its valuable treasure.. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 24, 2009 16:34:27 GMT -6
i doubt Bhagwat would want to lay a hand on miss vaisnava. She must be decades pass menopause. Could be the noises in her head made her report him to the police for stalking. If they were living near each other they woudn't need to come here to talk. Being stalked doesn't make you a sex celebrity. Well this is an odd, chauvinistic comment. It implies that women cease to be attractive or worthy of respect once they are post-menopausal. How absurd! Well, you seem to know me pretty well. better than I know me. I agree that some of the interfaith stuff is mindless, even obscene. Still, I am not for treating other religions disrespectfully. Humm, I think it is rather funny. True I have an odd sense of humor, but at least I have a sense of humor. I call it my "putting IGM behind me" icon. And now someone can call me bitter. That is what is usually happens at this point. Not bloody likely. One is not a Vaisnava because one wears tilak or chandan. I wear mine on my siddha-deha. No need for more than that. You come here and read a few posts and think you know it all then? This is only the outer or public side of the symposium. It represents everything thing anyone wants to talk about. No censorship here. It is a mirror reflecting whatever one puts in front of it. If you don't like it, put something nicer up. The world is full of complainers. That part is easy. If you look at this outer shell and see a shit hole well ... The inner chamber is where I post my works in process and we (the members and I) reflect on the rich tradition of Mahaprabhu. One must be a member to access that. The world loves rats. Just look at Fox and Prison Planet and those other fear mongers. This outer shell is whatever someone wants to make of it. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 24, 2009 17:27:44 GMT -6
But what shall we talk about today? I have said everything I want to say about IGM. So let's put that behind us.
Let's talk about rasa. Rasa is a fascinating topic and perhaps a universal one. If we take rasa in its most general sense as taste or flavor then we begin to see how universal it can be. We all operate according to our tastes and pursue the flavors we like the best. Therefore the Natya-sastra of Bharata says na hi rasAd rte kascid arthaH pravartate. "Apart from flavor, no objective is undertaken." What does this mean? It means that we tend to actor according to the flavors or tastes that we enjoy. We pursue the pleasures we enjoy the most. Everything in the world has a flavor of some sort. The question for us becomes establishing a hierarchy of flavors that draw us to them. Around such a hierarchy we organize our lives. There are some flavors that immediately attract us and some flavors that require cultivation. Some flavors appeal directly to our senses and other flavors appeal to our minds. Thus different people are attracted to different flavors.
According to the Sanskrit tradition of aesthetics, there are either eight or nine rasas or one rasa. Both views have impressive supporters. It might be worthwhile reflecting on the different view points in rasa aesthetics. Then we can think about the world, at least the world of the imagination, in terms of rasa.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2009 4:23:28 GMT -6
Yes, that is a good departure from stray hogs, dogs, camels & asses, and don't forget about the reptiles, arachnids, insects and Venus flytraps.
I remember the date rash that they make in Bengal - only comes in season for a few days a year. It is a good metaphor for mAdhuryarasa. And that is the rasa with which we are obsessed, no?
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Post by Nitaidas on May 2, 2009 17:10:03 GMT -6
Continuing with rasa, in spite of my alcoholic guru brother's attempt to throw us off track.
Rasa is indeed also translatable as "juice" and that makes it an especially suitable metaphor for experiencing the "essences" of the world or of reality. Just as the juice squeezed out of various fruit and vegetables allows one to taste the essence of that fruit or vegetable, so rasa in its broader sense can be regarded as the "essence" of the world or of reality. One can conceive, for instance, of it as a way of knowing all and that brings to mind those cryptic statements in the Upanisads about knowing everything by knowing that one essential thing. By knowing rasa, everything is known. When viewed in this way one comes gradually to the realization that knowing rasa is a way of knowing the essence of the world and since rasa was originally recognized in Sanskrit aesthetics as the most prized quality of drama and by extension of poetry, one might regard those two art forms too as ways in which sensitive aesthetes might know the true nature of the world.
Drama and poetry bear rasa. Drama and poetry do so because, if they are good, they capture the essence of an event or experience and make that essence present to an audience. This is the function of generalization (sadharanikarana) which is so important for good drama and good poetry to perform. What we discover in good art if that process of generalization takes place for properly us is something that we too share with that which is being portrayed. It doesn't really matter whether the event or story being portrayed in drama or poetry really took place or not. In fact, even if a work of art is based on an historical event, it is always the fiction that is presented in its artful representation. If it is done well, though, there is a pool of rasa hidden deep in its heart, like an inexhaustible, refreshing spring, from which the sahrdaya derives pleasure and is refreshed.
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Post by Nitaidas on May 2, 2009 17:29:14 GMT -6
Here is a nice little piece of Meister Eckhart that I discovered recently. It is from one of his German sermons:
I have occasionally spoken of a light in the soul which is uncreated and uncreatable. I constantly return in my sermons to this light, which apprehends God without medium, without concealment and nakedly, just as he is in himself. Indeed, it apprehends him in the act of begetting. I can again say truthfully that this light has more unity with God than it does with any of the soul's faculties, although it coexists with these. For you should know that this light is not nobler in the being of my soul than the lowest or most basic faculty, such as hearing or sight or some other of the senses which fall victim to hunger or thirst, cold or heat. This is so because of the homogeneous nature of being. In so far as we take the soul's faculties in their being, they are all one and are equally noble. But if we take them according to their function, then one is far nobler and more elevated than another.
Therefore I say that when we turn away from ourselves and from all created things, to that extent we are united and sanctified in the soul's spark, which is untouched by either space or time. That spark is opposed to all creatures and desires nothing but God, naked, just as he is in himself. He is not satisfied with the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit, nor with the three Persons together, as far as each exists in their particularity. I say truly that this light is not satisfied with the unity of the fertility of the divine nature. Indeed, I will say something that sounds even more astonishing: I declare by the good and eternal Truth that this light is not satisfied with the simple, still and divine being which neither gives nor takes, but rather it desires to know from where this being comes. It wants to penetrate to the simple ground, to the still desert, into which distinction never peeped, neither Father, Son nor Holy Spirit. There, in that most inward place, where everyone is a stranger, the light is satisfied and there it is more inward than it is in itself, for this ground is a simple stillness which is immovable in itself. But all things are moved by this immovability and all forms of life are conceived by it which, since they possess the light of reason, live of themselves.
[Selected German Sermons, trans. Oliver Davies, p 135]
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