Some Stray Thoughts

[Jaganath]

How much experience does Shiva have of India and its culture? It almost sounds like the only Indian Shiva has ever studied was the little brown man. Have you spent time in India at all Shiva? Because even though you are right that Prabhupada made outrageous statements regarding science, behavior, etc., he wasn't alone in that type of mentality. Buy yourself a ticket and fly to India tomorrow, spend some years there, and see that Indians think like that even now. Its ingrained in their culture, even in the face of the most glaring scientific developments. All gurus in India talk about full loyalty to themselves, make unscietific statements about most everything exact, and behave like, well, lunatics from our point of view. But in India its the norm, its the way to live by. Prabhupada came to America and made it big. That is the only difference between him and the others. Its strange that you miss this obvious fact.

BTW, to be fair, there are many types of people out there, people who have nothing to do with KC, that for example do not believe there was a moon landing at all and speak up on it through their organizations. This type of bahaviour is quite common actually. Prabhupada probably just wished there wasn't a moon landing and chose to believe there wan't one. Overall he was just an energetic man that nevertheless made some embarrassing mistakes. It happens. There is not need to construe this conspiracy theory about his motives. Move on Shiva. There is nothing there, really. Just your imagination.

[Deleted]

May 25, 2009 20:44:53 GMT -6 @Jaganath said:

How much experience does Shiva have of India and its culture? It almost sounds like the only Indian Shiva has ever studied was the little brown man. Have you spent time in India at all Shiva? Because even though you are right that Prabhupada made outrageous statements regarding science, behavior, etc., he wasn't alone in that type of mentality. Buy yourself a ticket and fly to India tomorrow, spend some years there, and see that Indians think like that even now. Its ingrained in their culture, even in the face of the most glaring scientific developments. All gurus in India talk about full loyalty to themselves, make unscietific statements about most everything exact, and behave like, well, lunatics from our point of view. But in India its the norm, its the way to live by. Prabhupada came to America and made it big. That is the only difference between him and the others. Its strange that you miss this obvious fact.

BTW, to be fair, there are many types of people out there, people who have nothing to do with KC, that for example do not believe there was a moon landing at all and speak up on it through their organizations. This type of bahaviour is quite common actually. Prabhupada probably just wished there wasn't a moon landing and chose to believe there wan't one. Overall he was just an energetic man that nevertheless made some embarrassing mistakes. It happens. There is not need to construe this conspiracy theory about his motives. Move on Shiva. There is nothing there, really. Just your imagination.

Thanks, but I was responding to a specific claim, anyways, next time I want an irrelevant opinion, hey, now I know who to call. So you didn't completely waste your time (^_^)

[subala]

Apologies Nitai, I used the pseudonym "Subal" and you got it mixed up with Subal from Hawaii etc. I did not intend to deceive passing for that your friend Subal but it happened. So apologies again.

I want to clarify that I'm a different Subala, and not the "Subal" mentioned in the above quote.

[Jaganath]

Shiva your opinion can be pretty irrelevant too, and in fact it is irrelevant since your knowledge of facts and circumstances are basically none. All the best anyways.

[Nitaidas]

May 26, 2009 1:43:41 GMT -6 subala said:

Apologies Nitai, I used the pseudonym "Subal" and you got it mixed up with Subal from Hawaii etc. I did not intend to deceive passing for that your friend Subal but it happened. So apologies again.

I want to clarify that I'm a different Subala, and not the "Subal" mentioned in the above quote.

Yes. I knew that. I have not heard from the other Subal since he withdrew from the forum, except very recently. Here is the note he sent me just the other day. I present it in case there are some here interested in his work:

Aloha Friends,

I am very happy to announce the launch of the new Universalist Radha-Krishnaism website at www.radha-krishnaism.org . It is designed by my friend Zvonimir Tosic in Melbourne, Australia who also contributed the original artwork. He is an artist, designer, scientist, and philosopher. He, I, and our friend Michael Valle, who teaches the philosophy of religion at an Arizona college, each have a blog on the site, and they are open to your comments. We’d like to hear from you.

Mike and Zvonimir have also been helping me get my book, Universalist Radha-Krishnaism: A Spirituality of Liberty, Truth, and Love ready to submit to a publisher, and it is now ready.

I will continue to maintain my personal website www.stevebohlert.com as well. We also have a Universalist Radha-Krishnaism discussion group on Facebook.com which is open to all Facebook members. I hope you will keep in touch with me through these venues. Aloha.

Sincerely,

Steve

I wish him well.

[I forgot this part:

Steve Bohlert / Subal Das
Founding Teacher
Universalist Radha-Krishnaism
www.radha-krishnaism.org
P.O. Box 1360
Pahoa, HI 96778
1 [phone]
www.stevebohlert.com

This is how you can contact him if you want to.]

[Vaishnava Seminars]

Who came on this site and why?

I came here to offer info about a seminar. I have no interest in any religious organization or "group think", no matter what it is. For Gaudiya siddhanta I read books in hand rather than on the net. For this it is neccessary to have at least a minimal understanding of sanskrit and bengali. There are plenty of books and programs even for free online for that and you learn as you go. For those who want to study Gaudiya siddhanta, there is no getting around the language issue. Of course, bhakti is not dependent on language, but it can only help, not hinder. The "teach yourself" series found at any major bookstore is a good start.

However I will say this; whether Iskcon or Gaudiya Math or any other religious organization is relevant or irrelevant, does it matter?

If one steps outside the world of organized and semi-organized cults, one finds that our planet is moving in a new direction, and has been for a long time. That direction is a paradigm shift away from organized religious heirarchies and a shift to personal experience and joy in ones practice, with the friendship of others who are finding similar joy in their practice (whether or not they practice the same thing as you).

In India I have found that Indian vaishnavas are much more into their personal practice than their western disciples or enthusiasts. For some reason the westerners want to rehash the same old stupid stuff from as long ago as 100 years. Like we hear about the clans in Afghanistan carrying grudges from generation to generation - you know - Hamza's dad cut my dad's arm off 40 years ago so I'm going to abduct Muhammed's nephew's wife now. Or, for those of you in the American South, the cross generational feuds between the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Can we get over it already?

And it all boils down to .... cult affiliation. If one's vaishnava sanga has not taken the form of an organized or semi-organized cult, then it boils down to guru affiliation.

I have never asked Nitai who his guru is, and I don't care. I trust that he was adult enough to choose a guru who reflected his heart's inner aspiration.

But who thinks like this? We have already seen that 2 anonymous dudes popped up on here to drill me about my guru affiliation and even make statements about my personal relationship therein.

Can I get a WTF?

Thankyou!

If we can just engage with one another as grown adult individuals and not harp on about cult or guru affiliation, imagine then the types of relationships and Hari Katha that might begin to be exchanged between people.

Who someone's guru is is totally irrelevant to me unless it is somehow intrinsic to the topic of our conversation, which it rarely is. What is it with this obsession with guru affiliation in the West? You do not see this in India (to anywhere near the same extent) and it runs counter-intuitive to a personal, private bhajan practice.

Good luck in trying to make this a place where people can learn about actual Gaudiya siddhanta, or "Chaitanya Vaishnavism" as you like to call it. Unfortunately, as long as people coming here feel that cult and/or guru affiliation is of paramount importance when engaging in dialogue with other adults, you may never see that day.

A more important issue, I believe, is whether my claim that missionizing is harmful to bhakti and not a part of the original, authentic CV is true or not. What evidence is there for or against?

Here's the answer:

je lagi avatara kahi se mula karana
prema rasa niryasa karite asvadaana
raga marga bhakti loke karite pracarana
rasika shekhara krishna parama karuNa
ei dui hetu haite icchara udgama

Of course that was Mahaprabhu's intent, one could argue, it is not our obligation to do raga marga prachar amongst "bhakti loke". However, one may if they so choose.

It does not have to be affiliated with any "mission" or organized religion/cult. Basically I guess by missionizing you mean "outreach"? Mahaprabhu was about outreach (dancing and singing through town and encouraging others to do so), but not about organized religion.

Nitai, If you were speaking to an audience who has never had any contact with Gaudiya Vaisnavism, then churning Iskcon/GM issues is not so important, I would say. But even then, in the west the history cannot be ignored completely, you have to bring it into the debate

I completely disagree. There is no debate. Its this type of "debate" mindset that creates the problems in the first place.

One must use the power of intention. If one is creating a space for vaishnavas to come together, from the onset the host must set the intention that "we are here to discuss the core texts of our Goswami granthas (again folks, the "Teach Yourself" language series available at any Barnes and Nobles), and "debates" about later orgs/cults/missions and their clashes will not be entertained."

It works.

I have a small circle of friends from various guru affiliations and there is no debate. We focus on core Hari katha and anything else is irrelevant. Who our gurus are is irrelevant because none of us are looking for gurus, we already have gurus with whom we are satisfied. Who has which guru is relevant only to people who are looking for a guru.

In that case, again, there is no debate. When you meet people interested in taking a guru, simply tell them that "the majority of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are found in Puri, Navadwip and Braj and you can roam those areas and check out the various vaishnavas there and decide for yourself who meets your individual spiritual needs best."

Bas. Where is the debate or issue?

I tell you people, it works.

I say the his-story of bhakti cults, their creations, legal battles, dissolutions and recreations are irrelevant to actual sadhu sanga and normal, sane, healthy, functional human relations.

(Emphasis above on normal, sane and healthy)



If after all of the above you are still finding a need to "debate" old, worn out his-story, what can I say? Find a tree somewhere, sit under its shade, do some pranayama to the tune of 1-4-2 breath patterns, and recite Sri Nikunja Rahasya Stava.

prathama-milana-bhitodbhasitasvasa-vacau

priyatama-bhuja-rodha-vyagra-hastau ratotkau

alam alam iti lila-gadgadokty-unmadandhau

smara nibhrta-nikunje radhika-krishnacandrau

How awesome is that?

Bhakti is so incredibly beautiful in its simplicity, friends.

Like our Srila Rupa Goswamipada above is requesting us - "please meditate!"

Yes, please, please meditate!

smara nibhrta-nikunje radhika-krishnacandrau!!!!!!!!!!

[Vaishnava Seminars]

Of course that was Mahaprabhu's intent, one could argue, it is not our obligation to do raga marga prachar amongst "bhakti loke". However, one may if they so choose.

Correction, meant to say:

"Of course that was Mahaprabhu's intent, one could argue, it is not our obligation to do raga marga bhakti prachar amongst the "loke", people. However, one may if they so choose."

But whatever...

smara nibhrta-nikunje radhika-krishnacandrau holds in any situation, proper translation, grammer and syntax or not.



If anyone is interested in my combined yogic-pranayama, mindfulness meditation, nama-rupa-guna-lila smarana workshops, then yo, hit me up.

But if not, just remember to smara nibhrta-nikunje radhika-krishnacandrau!!!!

[Nitaidas]

May 26, 2009 13:35:23 GMT -6 @Vaishnava Seminars said:

Of course that was Mahaprabhu's intent, one could argue, it is not our obligation to do raga marga prachar amongst "bhakti loke". However, one may if they so choose.

Correction, meant to say:

"Of course that was Mahaprabhu's intent, one could argue, it is not our obligation to do raga marga bhakti prachar amongst the "loke", people. However, one may if they so choose."

But whatever...

smara nibhrta-nikunje radhika-krishnacandrau holds in any situation, proper translation, grammer and syntax or not.



If anyone is interested in my combined yogic-pranayama, mindfulness meditation, nama-rupa-guna-lila smarana workshops, then yo, hit me up.

But if not, just remember to smara nibhrta-nikunje radhika-krishnacandrau!!!!

Maybe we should arrange for one of your seminars for everyone who frequents this site, myself included. We could rent a Missouri State Park facility somewhere for a weekend or more and participate in your seminar, do kirtan, japa, puja, share prasad, and hear Hari-katha, nothing preachy. just shear rasasvada. Gaur and or RK lila.

[Nitaidas]

On a more serious and probable note, I would like to point out who it is who spreads raga-bhakti according to KdK.

e lagi avatara kahi se mula karana
prema rasa niryasa karite asvadaana
raga marga bhakti loke karite pracarana
rasika shekhara krishna parama karuNa
ei dui hetu haite icchara udgama


Rasika Shekhara Krishna who is parama karuNa, he is the taster and spreader.

There is nothing in this verse that suggests that any jivas can or should do such things. When jivas think they can do such things, they become filled with hubris. Krsna does the tasting and spreading. In all of the songs of Govinda Das that I have translated so far (see the appropriate section of the forum) he says that the world has been saved or prema has been distributed. These are fait accomplis in a certain sense. Our mission is to receive bhakti and grow it, not imagine that we can distribute it. Receiving it and cultivating it are certainly enough. Just as we can never taste rasa the way that Radha and Krsna do, so we can never spread bhakti the way they do.

As far as the use of the past tense is concerned, though, I don't think we need to worry to much about have missed it. As Meister Eckhart says so eloquently:

Thus the saints say that the Son is born eternally and that he will continue to be born without ceasing. Neither would God have created the world, if having created were not the same as still creating. Therefore, God created the world in such a way that he still creates it without ceasing. All that belongs to the past and future is alien and remote to God. Accordingly, they who are born of God as the son of God, love God for his own sake, which means they love God for the sake of loving God and they act through their works for the sake of acting. (Davies, pp. 80-81)

In other words R and K are still tasting that rasa and spreading that bhakti. They are outside of time and what appears to us as something past or future is for them the eternal present.

[Sudhir]

I think Tungavidya is mistanken debate for fight here. If there is to be progression in any endeavor, especially endeavor involving spirituality, there certainly has to be debate. Debate is inevitable where intelligence is applied, and absolutely not a bad thing. New people may come to hear her katha, but the intelligent ones will go pass the shallow first hype and look for the roots of it. Its inevitable that the good, the bad and the ugly will be visible to these people. To just call everyone else besides oneself an idiot will not be enough explanation of events involving the history os this katha.

So to ignore the history of our religion, besides sounding preposterous, it goes exactly against the main stance of the religion. To say that one does not need to be affiliate to any current group (any 'religion'), is fine, but such decision only means one is creating yet another 'group', another variation of existing religions. And especially Gaudiya Vaishnavism; its very nature is that it doesn't exist in a vacuum, never did, and never will.

[Vaishnava Seminars]

New people may come to hear her katha, but the intelligent ones will go pass the shallow first hype and look for the roots of it.

The roots of it are our Goswami granthas, hence the encouragement to buy/order/borrow the Teach Yourself X Language series so that you, me and everyone else can read those roots in their original root languages. Can't get more rootsy than that, can you?

Here's a good example of roots to start off with;
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDvdBgJdEzU&feature=PlayList&p=8711041A7111E2B7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=47

Nitai, I'm going away for some time but we can discuss a workshop weekend in Missouri when I get back.

Til then...

One Love. One Taste.

Ek Prem. Ek Rasa.











Positive!

[Pundarik]

One does not go directly from flowers to roots. Between the flowers and the roots there is the stem, branches, vines, leaves...;D

[Nitaidas]

May 26, 2009 20:43:13 GMT -6 @Vaishnava Seminars said:

Nitai, I'm going away for some time but we can discuss a workshop weekend in Missouri when I get back.

Great! Have a safe journey and rewarding sojourn. While you are gone we will perhaps try to tease out the nuances of that ek prem and ek ras you mention. As Whitehead said: Seek simplicity and then distrust it.

[Judith]

Tunga,
It sounded to me Nitai was joking about that seminar... But, whatever, right? He was also actually gently trying to say that you were probably too fast in your interpretation explosion style "of course Mahaprabhu has told everyone to preach".

Nitai, you say, 'we receive and grow it'... um, interesting concept. But where/how we receive it if no one is spreading?

[Nitaidas]

May 26, 2009 21:34:25 GMT -6 @Judith said:

Tunga,
It sounded to me Nitai was joking about that seminar... But, whatever, right? He was also actually gently trying to say that you were probably too fast in your interpretation explosion style "of course Mahaprabhu has told everyone to preach".

Nitai, you say, 'we receive and grow it'... um, interesting concept. But where/how we receive it if no one is spreading?

Yeah I was joking, sort of. I wondered whether anyone but I would show up. But every joke has some truth in it. Perhaps if we organize it "they" will show up.

Sadhu-sanga. It is communicated much like a cold or the flu. Remember Narada's story of his previous life in the Bhagavata. Those who infected Narada were just being sadhus, doing what sadhus do, praising and worshiping Krsna. There are many interesting metaphors for how it is spread. Infection is only one of them. Bhakti might also be thought of as a kind of uranium. Who ever comes into contact with it is irradiated and becomes radioactive. One might also think of bhakti as comparable to mass in modern physics. It bends the time-space continuum and draws other beings through some special and subtle force into the gravity well it creates. Etc. Etc.

The funny thing about it is that one is never sure who has infected one. It might have been and probably was the person one least suspected of it. But once one is infected what a sweet disease it is.