Some Stray Thoughts

[Vaishnava Seminars]

Hmmmm. No Judy, I don't think so. (But Nitai can speak for himself, he's a big boy).

I don't know what you mean by "explosion style" and "of course Mahaprabhu told everyone to preach".

I never use the word "preaching", nor do I ever "preach".

The internet sometimes is not a good forum for communication because, as exemplified by your above post, misunderstandings abound - from all sides.

Nitai, shoot me your email so that we can discuss the weekend roots-rock-reggae-love-meditation-be-here-now-devi-puja-fusion workshop one on one when I get back.

And please do tease out "ek prem" and "ek rasa".

Looking forward to that.





"Hold No Thought"

(now....... think about that)

[Nitaidas]

May 26, 2009 22:00:49 GMT -6 @Vaishnava Seminars said:

Nitai, shoot me your email so that we can discuss the weekend roots-rock-reggae-love-meditation-be-here-now-devi-puja-fusion workshop one on one when I get back.

And please do tease out "ek prem" and "ek rasa".

You can reach me at [e-mail]. Look forward to discussing it with you. If I don't respond very quickly you can also reach me through the bookstore (www.nitaisbookstore.com)

[malati]

Hare Krishna

Following this thread, let me give my candid opinion.

As someone who has been involved in the internet community for ages, I am saddened, disappointed and embarrassed in equal measure by the behaviour of many internet devotees who are 99 % westerners. And I can definitely not say that to Asian raised devotees.

Westerners on the internet cuss, use harsh and offensive language and condescend others. I can’t exactly point my finger at the reasons. Don’t know if its because of the impersonal nature of the internet, the western psyche, their social orbit, family background, or the sincerity or lack thereof to develop nature conducive to spiritual life. It seems like the internet brings the worst in devotees.

I’m sure everyone here knows that there are places in our shastras or literature that say that anger begets hate and hate begets lust ….. Surely restraint and speech are extensions of our state of consciousness.

I would have thought that afterall these years we have matured as persons.

Let’s lift our game!!!

Nitai das you started this thread by asking why some people find you bitter. I’d say that some do find you as that because, although you have many valid points to raise and which I do agree mostly e.g., CVism/bhakti yoga is more about self-realization , bhajan than preaching and Krishna consciousness should be spiritually dynamic not static , you express them in an aggressive way – you sound so combatant. I don’t think that will serve any good purpose, not only to you as a person with a PHD, but also because and more importantly ,because a strong argument will find its own force even without the expletives.

About Shiva: although some of his ideas are really “insane” , in my years of reading his posts I find them expressed in a “sane” way. Some of his views are reasonable also.

About Subal Bohlert: he is now a guru. I accidentally stumbled upon the blog of his disciple, Govinda dasi Babaji.

Let’s move on and stop our fixation with Bhaktivedanta Swami. Don’t make to much of his intentions. He made mistakes but he caused people to chant Krishna’s names, admittedly though, in so doing made some people take serious risks, make sacrifices and destroy some lives.

When I’ve gathered my thoughts I’ll post a thread with some hard questions that trouble me.


Hare Krishna

[subala]

Most western devotees' concept of "preaching" is ramming books down the public's throat, wearing bed sheets (oops dhotis or saris!), on street corners or at airports. Some devotees think that this cultish activity is a limb of bhakti. I can't imagine Srila Rupa Goswami endorsing this nonsense.

If "book distribution", as the neo-Hindu cult endorses it, is the "highest seva" where are all the maha bhagavats that such "seva" should have produced? The silence is deafening...

I recall reading, somewhere, someone asking, "How many people can you feed from an empty basket?"

[Sunil]

oh please not the "bed sheets" complaint again.

how many maha bhagavats have you produced Sub?

[Nitaidas]

May 27, 2009 8:01:27 GMT -6 @Sunil said:

oh please not the "bed sheets" complaint again.

how many maha bhagavats have you produced Sub?

Has anyone produced a Mahabhagavat out of a western bhakta? I know of none. I think we bear some sort of immunity to the infection of bhakti. Neither IGM nor the real CV tradition appear to have had much success in this regard. This might be a problem mostly with our later generations. I suspect that previous generations may have produced a few. Sri Krsna Prem comes to mind. Are there others?

The question that has been on my mind for the last few days is this: if one wants to learn about the mainstream Caitanyite tradition, what resources does one have? Who can one read? What books or texts are available to the westerner who wants to explore the mainstream tradition in western languages? Obviously, the books and gurus of IGM are excluded. What then remains?

Providing those kinds of materials has been the main focus of my efforts for the last few years, but I am almost alone and a slow worker.

[Nitaidas]

So who can one read if one wants exposure to genuine CV? Here is a list of those I have thought of. If I have missed anyone, please add a note.

-- Certainly Ananta Das Babaji Maharaj, hopefully well translated.
-- Dr. OBL Kapoor. (He was reinitiated by Sri Gauranga Das Babaji of the Nitai-Gaur Radhe Shyam community)
-- Sri Kanupriya Goswami and his disciples Manindranath Guha (reinitiated) and Sundarananda Vidyavinode (reinitiated).
-- Sri Premananda Bharati (Lord Sri Krsna, and other English writings)
-- Mahanamabrata Brahmacari (Vaisnava Vedanta)
-- Sri Shishir Kumar Ghosh (Lord Gauranga)
-- Sri Krishna Prem (initiated through his guru by the Radharamana Goswamis)
-- Sri Binode Bihari Das Babaji (recently translated)
-- Sri Manindranath Guha (recently added to the available in English group)

Any non-IGM translation of any of the classic CV texts. Translations done by scholars are generally more reliable and correct than those done by IGM or non-IGM non-scholars, though they will naturally lack the element of religious or spiritual appreciation or connection. I still think it is better to get a correct idea of the text than a bunch of emotional blather that hardly resembles the original. Obviously, a happy balance would be the best. Much work needs to be done in this area.

Examples of scholarly works by non-bhaktas:

The Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu by Dr. David Haberman
The Sri Krsna-kirtana by Dr. Mimi Klaiman
The Caitanya-caritamrta by Dr. Edward Dimock and Dr Tony Stewart
The Advaita-prakasa by Dr. Rebeca Manring (coming out soon hopefully)
The Tattva-sandarbha by Dr. Stuart Elkman

Examples of scholarly works done by bhaktas:

Any of the works done by Jagat (Reinitiated by Lalita Prasad Thakur), Dr. Satyanarayana Das (reinitiated by Haridas Shastri), and myself (reinitiated by Baba Tinkadi Goswami). Advaita Das (Edwin Bryant) may well fit in here now. I believe he has been reinitiated by Sri Haridas Shastri.

Examples of non-scholarly work done by bhaktas, that is nevertheless non-IGM:

-- Any of the works translated by Advaita Das (though he sounds very much like IGM). These are good temporary place-holders, until better translations come along.
-- Haricaran Das has also been working on the Bhavanasara-sangraha. His work is more careful than Advaita's. I don't know how far he has gotten, but that is an important work.

Some of the great modern Vaisnavas who are still waiting to be translated into English are:

Sri Kanupriya Goswami
Sri Sundarananda Das
Dr Radhagovind Nath
Sri Rasikamohan Vidyabhusana
Sri Pranagopal Goswami
Sri Kunjabihari Das Babaji
Sri Bipinbihari Goswami
Sri Mahanamabrata Brahmacari
Dr. Bimanbihari Majumdar (more of a scholar, but also a bhakta)
Sri Haridas Goswami
Sri Siddha Manohar Das Babaji
Sri Ramdas Das Babaji (mostly songs)
Sri Hrdayananda Das Babaji (poetry)
Sri Narayan Candra Goswami
and many others.

There is a vast literature out there in which various aspects of the authentic tradition are represented, but most of it remains still in Bengali or Sanskrit. Nevertheless, this is a glimpse of some of the literary sources from which one can get a clearer idea of the mainstream tradition.

[Nitaidas]

The upshot of my previous posting is that one should try to avoid IGM literature. It is hard since there is so little that is representative of the mainstream tradition in English, and what little there is is of varying levels of quality. Still, it is better to avoid IGM literature even preferring the works of secular scholars to that. The reason is that it is harmful to one's sadhana, especially to Harinama japa. The biggest obstacles to successful sadhana that I have noticed are the Namaparadhas and reading IGM literature will infect one with Namaparadha. Two especially stand out: sadhu-ninda and guru-avajna. The IGM works are corrupted with Vaisnava and sadhu ninda. That everyone knows and that is very harmful the cultivation of Nama. Moreover, they (the IGM works) do not originate in any authentic guru lineage and thus fundamentally promote disrespect for the authentic gurus. It is too bad. The books are beautifully printed (though the pictures are rather corny and comic bookish) and generally very attractive. But unfortunately, they are harmful for spiritual life.

I know, I know, every one is saying "O God! There goes Nitai again!" But hey! If you were walking down a path and saw a dangerous, poisonous snake on or near the path you would warm everyone you met heading the other way, wouldn't you? If you don't think the snake is dangerous or poisonous, walk on! I've done my duty.

[Not buying]

If thats your duty, who is to interfer with a man's 'duty'...

However, you see poison where there isn't really fatal poison. Just some unfortunate misconception.

But watch out that, by not letting go of the ego, you brew a poison of your own...

By the way, I thought you said, "western devotees can go to hell"(?)

[Nitaidas]

May 29, 2009 13:05:40 GMT -6 @Not buying said:

If thats your duty, who is to interfer with a man's 'duty'...

However, you see poison where there isn't really fatal poison. Just some unfortunate misconception.

But watch out that, by not letting go of the ego, you brew a poison of your own...

By the way, I thought you said, "western devotees can go to hell"(?)

So you recognize that it is poison, but think that it won't kill you. Maybe it will just make you sick. Still, who wants that?

Thanks for the warning about the ego. I'll keep an eye on her.

Well they can very easily. It is well within their power, especially if they don't recognize dangers when they see them.

[Yet not purchasing]

I agree that GM made some errors. Now your theory is that no one from GM can know bhakti - GM is poison. But I for example am a product of GM (pretty much all of us westerners are, thats just the way things turned out). Still, I am here, interested in some of the things you have to say. If, (according your theory), I had killed my bhakti completely from the go, from starting off in GM, I would not be here (allegedly where real bhakti is), would I? So you can't be correct when you say there is absolutely no bhakti in GM. Something is there. Its not a black and white situation as you put it. There is a lot to consider in between those two extremes.

[Nitaidas]

May 29, 2009 13:50:42 GMT -6 @Yet not purchasing said:

I agree that GM made some errors. Now your theory is that no one from GM can know bhakti - GM is poison. But I for example am a product of GM (pretty much all of us westerners are, thats just the way things turned out). Still, I am here, interested in some of the things you have to say. If, (according your theory), I had killed my bhakti completely from the go, from starting off in GM, I would not be here (allegedly where real bhakti is), would I? So you can't be correct when you say there is absolutely no bhakti in GM. Something is there. Its not a black and white situation as you put it. There is a lot to consider in between those two extremes.

Well, to steal a metaphor from old BVS I would say that yes you learned about bhakti and that is a great thing. Bhakti is an extraordinary thing and even hearing about it is bound to provoke an interest in it. But you have not found bhakti yet. You are, as I was, trying to taste that honey from outside the jar. When you are properly initiated the seed is planted and the cultivation begins. Note that it only begins. Proper initiation is only a beginning. All problems are not solved, nor are all obstacles removed. Still, the path is open; the rest depends upon you. Since IGM has no authentic initiation, the mantras are not empowered. Still, they are the divines names of Krsna which are always empowered to purify. Then, too, there is the Mahamantra which requires no initiation. These things are the sources of any advancement that is made in IGM. One's mind becomes purified and the soul-soil prepared to receive the seed. Though the divine name is still effective it is severely hampered by the Namaparadhas which infect the literature and whole corpus of discourse in IGM. So there is advancement, but it is slowed. As I am sure you know the best way to eliminate Namaparadhas is chanting more of the holy names, but that too is restricted in IGM. Instead of doing one lakh or two or three, one is told to only do 16 rounds, a quarter lakh.

Just before Dr. Kapoor rescued me from ISKCON back in 1975 I had begun a program of chanting one lakh. I had read that passage in the Caitanya Bhagavata about becoming a Lakhpati if one wanted the association of Sri Gauranga. After starting to do a lakh a day, Sri Nama Prabhu rescued me from ISKCON through Dr. Kapoor. Of course, there were other powerful influences on my life at the time. I was living in Vraja for one thing. I was sneaking out in the late afternoon to listen to Harikatha from the likes of mahatmas like Sri Nrsimhavallabh Goswami. He was reading and commenting on Sri Visvanatha Cakravartin's Sri Prema-samputa. That may have the been the first time I actually had a little taste of rasa. That can happen according to Sri Rupa in even the unevolved like me when they are luckily in the right association. Everything was in Bengali and Sanskrit, but it was chaste Bengali and somehow because of my knowledge of Sanskrit I was able to follow his reading quite well. In addition, I was sitting with Dr. Kapoor in the early afternoons and he showed me his grace and plucked me up out of the stormy seas of IGM and set me on the placid shore of authentic CV. Sorry for getting so poetic and dramatic here at the end. That has been happening to me a lot lately.

[Thanks but no thanks]

Wow I am amazed at the lengths you guys are willing to go to keep your skewed view of the facts. "But you have not found bhakti yet". Not found bhakti yet?! And how in a world would you know that? If this is a sample of your method of receiving and distributing knowledge, I must say, I am in shock. But not surprised. Not surprised at all.

I think I can tell for myself wheather I have a certain sentiment in my heart or not. You could at least have said "you may have not found bhakti yet". But to make an affirmative statement as you do without even knowing whom you are talking to, thats awkward, to say the least. Not to mention its just down right abusive. Abusive as in patronizing and pushing someone down and using contempt and basically calling that person (whome you don't even know) incapable of thinking and even feeling for himself. This alleged real linage link you talk about - it doesn't seem to do much for the allegedly really-linage-linked person after all. You sound even more cetemptive of individuals than IGM has ever managed.

So I say lets wrap this grand conversation up, shall we?

[TBT]

So that previous comment was kind of strongomotional so let me elaborate a bit (still, stand by those words).

What is this problem most of us westerners find ourselves in after 25 to near 40 years of what we call KC? We are told our lineage is not a 'real one'. That certainly is a problem if bhakti indeed requires such. But then we also find that the so called real lineages have not given us anything whatsoever in the way of a chance. Not in the beginning, not after all these years. That is is the problem with the tradition. In the beginning there was no one out there other than IGM. And still today, we are wished to hell if we so much show some signs of memes post indonctrinacion (as if memes does not happen with the traditonalists as well, just leave at Radhakunda for a while...). In the West what is available for us AND for newcomers is the same: nearly nothing. Where is the outreach? Where are the real bhakti outlets around the world to make all the difference? Truly the silence id deafening.

So, the real question and the one that has been obviously diverted is this: the problem is not that bhakti requires a physical line alone, but a physical line is required ALONG WITH a certain frame of consciousness. If that certain state is missing, then the physical line alone is inactive.

Moreover, the alleged 'problem' on both sides is highly debateable if we are willing to acknowledge that there actually is a connection between IGM and the traditional lines. There is a link there if we are willing to see it that way.

So what we really ought to be concerned with is an expanded understanding of bhakti itself before attempting to present it to the world. Telling a fellow bhakta "you have not found bhakti yet", my god, who really has?

[Bhakti]

Telling a fellow bhakta "you have not found bhakti yet", my god, who really has?

Or hasn't?