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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 10, 2009 9:38:06 GMT -6
That's delightfull. It would be great to have a collection of all the Astakaliya padavali of the various Mahajan poets. Yes, it would. Govindadas has obviously written some songs that follow the astakaliya. Do you know of others who have? I will check my collections of Vaisnava padas. Most of them tend to provide exemplifications of Sri Rupa's treatment of the Nayika in his Ujjvala. If you find any, post your translations. I enjoy reading them (and I am sure the "others" will too) and we can collect them together into an anthology of Vaisnava padas that explore the Astakala-lila.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 10, 2009 11:22:28 GMT -6
Here is another song of Prabhu Jagadbandhu Sundara. This one is part of his Sri Nityananda Smarana-mangala. I include a representation of the original Bengali.
ke re kaa"ngaalera be"se yaaci.yaa beRaa.ya|\\ premadaataa nitaa{}i bujhi e'seche ei nadii.yaa.ya|\\ du'.ti baahu tuli.ye ai yaa.ya re duli.ye,\\ kaatare bina.ya kare kalira jiibere lao.yaaya||
bale hari bala bhaa{}i, ore aara cintaa naa{}i,\\ sakalera durlabh dhana e'nechi ke nibi aa.ya||\\
emana da.yaala abataara, bhabe habaara na.ya re aara,\\ aaca.n.daale la'.ye kole na.yanajale bhaase haa.ya||
prabhu chaaRe huhu"nkaara, gela kaalera adhikaara,\\ guru bandhu bale tribhubana bhaasila premera banyaa.ya|
O who is this in the clothes of the destitute who goes about making requests? Is it that giver of love, Nit\=ai who has come to this Nadia? Raising his two arms high, he sways as he walks; in despair he humbles himself to take with him Kali's living beings. \bigskip
He says: ``Say `Hari,' brother! There's nothing more to worry about. I have brought you a treasure that is most rare for everyone. Who will take it? Please come!"
Such a compassionate descent in this world will never be again. Even Ca\d{n}\d{d}\=alas he embraces and soaks them with his tears.
The Master releases a loud cry and Time loses its authority. Teacher Bandhu has this much to say: ``He's flooded the three worlds with a deluge of divine love."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2009 20:49:28 GMT -6
Do we now extrapolate from the interconnectedness of all things to the interconnectedness of all beings? Why not, mon? With that quasi-quantum leap, why should manjaree bhav be something problematic? Even the cannabis plants cross pollinate each other, mon. Without that, how would the weed have any intoxication power? If the cannabis plants can excite each other without touching, why not Shree Krishan and Shree Radheekaa and the gopees?
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Post by ST on Jun 11, 2009 10:39:53 GMT -6
Nitai,
Good! I think it was about time someone in GV/CV made the mature and honest statement "I don't know", as you have done by saying, "Something tells me that this nexus of ideas is important, not only for finding a language within which we might better express the core ideas of CV, especially the peculiar psycho-phenomenon of manjari-bhava, which I don't in any way profess to understand yet". I don't think you are alone in that, i.e., who among us really 'knows' enough about the core of our religion? But at least in my experience, I have seen that most our leading practicioners prefer to profess complete knowledge, even if only theoretical, transfering any and all failures as to its tangablility, to cousin parties who of course, in each protester's estimation, are not yet "qualified" for said knowledge. This literal-back-thrusted treatment of the subject, without the necessary further processing (no pun...), might be, in my opinion, the main reason our religion hasn't made much progress since its inception by Mahaprabhu and immediate followers. Regarding "I don't know", it seems to be the right place to start actual thinking. Although we may find that that will be the place perpetually arrived at anyways...
But, I wanted to thank you for the poems, hope you post many more.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 11, 2009 12:25:41 GMT -6
Well, apparently mojo1008 understands it perfectly well. But in between his/her "mons" do you detect the faint aroma of manure?
Pandita Ananta Das Babaji has kindly gathered together into a book all or most of the relevant texts on manjari-bhava. Have you seen it? It is a reasonable place to start in attempting to understand how the tradition has understood it up to now. But that still needs to be translated into how you or I might understand it in the context of our own lived experiences.
Glad you enjoy the songs. I will continue to post them as I am able.
Here is another kunja-bhanga song from Govinda Das, with the original, transliterated Bengali:
himakara malina nalinaga.na haasa{}u aru.na kira.na heri thora| kokila bola bhramara kula aakula tejala kumudini-kora|| kaiche ghumaa.yata yugalaki"sora| co"naki kahata "suka "saarika jora|| ki"sala.ya-"sa.ya.ne nicala tanu "syaamara marakata kaa~ncana gori| ki.ye kusuma-"sara-tuu.na "suuna bhela ki.ye duhu~m ratirase bhori|| sahacari choRi mandire jani yaaota jaagaha sundari raadhe| gobindadaasa pahu "suna{}ite kaatara kona ka.yala rasa baade|
The cooling moon is fading and the lotuses are smiling, seeing a few rays of dawn. The cuckoo is calling and the bees are stirring. The moon leaves the laps of his lilies. How do the young couple continue to sleep, while parrots and saris so loudly converse? Their bodies, motionless on a bed of soft leaves, Are black marble and milky gold. Is the quiver of flower-arrows empty? Or, are they too drunk from the liqueur of love? Their companions, so that they might leave the bower-house and return, [say:] ``Wake up, beautiful Radha!" The Lord of Govinda Dasa, hearing those words, in pain says: ``Who interrupted our pleasure?"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2009 19:41:29 GMT -6
;D Mon!
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 11, 2009 23:49:15 GMT -6
Actually, I goofed. The book I mentioned is not by Pandit Baba, but by his guru Sri Kunjabihari das Baba.
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Post by malati on Jun 12, 2009 3:00:08 GMT -6
Radhe Radhe
So many comments have been passed here in the days that I have not been here.
Bhajan/sankirtan
I believe our spiritual practices should not be compartmentalized.
That Krishna's nama, rupa, lila, and swarup are non-different from each other , I believe is the core of CVism. Therefore bhajan (lila smaranam) and sankirtan (sravanam-kirtanam) are on equal term. When we meditate on Krishna's activities (lila), we simultaneoulsy remember his form (rupa), we hear his (nama) name, relish his name and his identity as the supreme absolute of everything (swarup) There are no hierarchy involved. The above I think are the philosophical perspectives.
On the practical level we know the above processes are achievable because we can multi-task at the same time. Our brain and senses can work in unison. We can think of Him walking with Radha at the grove, visualize Krishna personality, sing his names, move our body in praise of Him at the same time with ease.
For me smaranam and sankirtan are just medium for self and God realization.
In my case, I have no physical sanga here so I dont really do the ISKCON style sankirtan but I do sing by myself in my bedroom but mostly I do japa, smaranam manjari seva as daily sadhana.
Even looking at the trees in our garden, the blue sky, can also be a form of bhajan if we associate it with Krishna. Our circumstances should determine what medium to adopt to make our bhajan -sadhana work for us. Inflexible and artificial construct will not do us much spiritual good. It should be spontaneous, right?
But everything being equal, I think lila smaranam is more effective than going in the streets in the west to do sankirtan; there are just too many distractions.
Our line is very explicit about manasi seva sadhana. I was given my swarup and my seva to the divine-couple. I am loving it. My mental seva has taken a whole different meaning (more alive and real to me) to my spiritual life than does altar seva.
Buddysattva said: Malati asked what is wrong with Advaita das? He falls into the above category -- he focuses his teachings on the importance of renunciation and lila-katha and rasa-sastra -- by simply repeating what he has read. But, has renunciation and lila-katha and rasa-satra given him entrance to bhava-bhakti? Has he become self-realized and entered into a relationship with Radha-Krishna through that practice? No. Why? They don't lead to self-realization and self-realization is necessary to attain bhava-bhakti. Self-realization is learned by very specific teachings and practices, it doesn't just come on it's accord. Advaita teaches the same as the others above: you never see him teaching about how to become self-realized because like most others he never took seriously the parts of the Gita and Bhagavatam which teach on that. That takes self work and is not easy; it takes facing the reality of our total dependence on another being for everything at every moment, it takes meditating on not being in control of our thoughts, it takes realization of another being inside of and completely controlling us.
If you haven't gone through that than you will not understand the eoterica of lila and rasa because that understanding comes to you directly from your ability to commune with Paramatma.
Therefore he doesn't realize how his understanding of lila and rasa is superficial and missing out on the inner esoteric intention of those writings. Without self-realization (realization of your relationship with Paramatma and the resulting ability to communicate) it is impossible to even see the esoteric intent in lila and rasa sastra, what to speak of understanding it.
Yet Advaita tries to pass himself off as some type of siksa guru on lila and rasa, when in fact it is obvious that he has no experience of anything he writes about; he's just repeating what he has read. And if you disagree with his literalistic interpretation of anything then he will strongly disagree with you as if he knows he is right, when in fact all he is doing is sticking to literalism as if it is all in all. Granted, he used to be worse, he used to get very upset if you didn't believe that everything in in the Puranas was literally true, e.g. billions of bodyguards, Krishna actually lifting Govardhana hill, etc.
He and the others who teach like him are blind to the real nature of of rasa and lila because they never became self-realized; without which they are barred from the inner truths of rasa and lila. You get the neophyte or muddled bogus edition of Chaitanya Vaisnavism from them, the advanced edition is a limited release and is available only in subscription to those who take the yoga part of bhakti-yoga - seriously.
Buddy, you know I like most of your realization of the siddhanta and this is not to defend my gurubhai Advaitadas. You may know that I can be tough on him sometimes when I have to. But I think your comments re Advaitadas are too strong.
Firstly, interpreting the shastras or the writings of the aharyas is a matter of personal realizations. If Advaitadas takes stuff literally he must have a basis. He is well read on the foundational acharyas' writings. So if he takes a literal interpretation, maybe we can say that the acharyas took it literally also?
An example is the Krishna Radha erotic lila. I have not read anything that will convince me that the acharyas took the erotic lila as metaphor. Ok I will confess, I am a closet heretic. Now not anymore. I think the erotic lila is pregnant with symbolic meanings. It is a metaphor. And I can give paragraphs of reasons why I think that to be so. However to cut a story short Ill give a simple one. God is an ineffable concept; God is inconceivable and if God can be easily understood then He is not the maximally supreme absolute truth!
Although, I also believe that the narrations of the lila have become so commonplace that we in the process are losing its supposed philosophical edge, that does not prove your assumptions that Advaitadas or anyone for that matter that always talks about the lila has not entered into the lila's spirit.
We can not and should not feel superior to judge anyone's depth of relationship with our beloved couple. We should judge the person in his totality. You don't know what Advaitdas does outside of the cyberspace. He is my godbrother and I have seen a side of him that no one in the cyberspace has seen.
I honestly do not think, he is passing off as a guru to anyone. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. At the least we should be thankful to him for putting some effort to letting us in on the acharyas writings.
Yes, Advaitadas can be stubborn about his opinion . But that's his blog. We must debate him if we think he is wrong. I do express a strong opinion on his blog if I think he is off the mark. But of course that is also just my opinion as much as he has his own. Let's debate the issue if we have to.
To tell the truth, some of my comments were censored by adavitadas; he kept it from the public view. I was annoyed but I immediately let that incident pass. You think you were the only one who was censored by him? Now you know.
Let us all unite, be supportive and not be judgmental with each other. Let us unite and produce on the internet the best materials with very sound siddhanta. Let us show the IGMers that we have the cream of the siddanta and they should take notice. However to achieve that we must have a certain measure of respect for each others' work. Or maybe live and let live should be the dictum within the traditional community. Let us not be envious of each others' achievements. Instead we should support each other. And if we have to, forgive each others misdemeanours. Let's set aside our personal differences. Let us visit each others' sites (trad sites) and debate if we must in the spirit of sportsmanship.
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Post by YT on Jun 12, 2009 6:10:39 GMT -6
one sportsmanship i like is target shooting ;D
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Post by Madhava on Jun 12, 2009 6:52:33 GMT -6
Mon by what stretch of the imagination can you say plants excite one another?
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 12, 2009 10:00:30 GMT -6
Here is another Prabhu Jagadbandhu Sundara song on Nitai Prabhu:
ai ne'ce yaa.ya| du'.ti baahu ne'Re kaatare jiibere lao.yaa.y re| prema ke nibi ke nibi ba'le yaaci.yaa beRaa.ya re|| aaca.n.daale di.ye kola, bale bhaa{}i haribola re, binaamuule bika{}iba bhaja goraaraa.ya re|| aa.ya aa.ya aa.ya ba'le, dhe'.ye ye'te paRe .ta'le re, emana da.yaara nidhi aache baa kothaa.ya re|| ghuur.nita aa~mkhi-aru.na, jhare baa kata baru.na re, asaadhane nityadhana amani bilaa.ya re|| gamana bana ka~njaara, kare ghana huhu"nkaara re, pulake triloka preme nimagana praa.ya re|| sabe praphulla antara, harinaama nirantara re, bandhu bandhu aparaadhii ba'le ba~ncita k.rpaa.ya re
There he goes dancing, Waving his two arms, anxious to take living beings with him. Saying: ``Who will take this love? Who will take it?" he goes imploring. Embracing even the Candalas, he says: ``Brother, say Hari! Without a price I give it away. Worship Gor\=ar\=aya!" ``Come, come, come," says he, while running he stumbles and falls. From his rolling eyes so red so many tears are shed. That eternal treasure, without requiring practice, In such a way he distributes. His gait like a forest peacock's, Loudly and densely he cries out. Covered with goosebumps, with love the three worlds he floods. Everyone's hearts are in blossom; The names of Hari ceaselessly sung. Bandhu, Bandhu! You're such an offender! You've missed out on all that compassion.
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Post by Sakhicharan Das on Jun 12, 2009 10:10:02 GMT -6
Lovely! Jai Nitai! Jai Bandhusundar! Please keep'em coming Nitai Dasji!
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Post by ST on Jun 12, 2009 11:06:53 GMT -6
Let us show the IGMers that we have the cream of the siddanta
Sorry, I am pretty sure you don't have the cream of the sidhanta, or at least Advaitadas does not have that cream. True, he has something, as anybody has something in the way of devotion, but is it worth going around showing that, again?Advaitadas does not have it down enough to call for another online or even printed literature, what to speak of calling it "the cream"?So why go around showing again something that no one really needs, i.e. more literalism and confusion? Best is to reflect on what is lacking and try reaching to that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2009 13:37:43 GMT -6
Malati:
I don't want you to think I don't respect Advaita, I do, but some things he needs to hear for his own good. I don't think the problem with Advaita is unique to him, in fact I think it is very common to the point of being practically an axiom: regardless of a devotees level of advancement, after he or she has been a devotee for many years, if they have taken up an interest in rasa and lila and diligently studythose writings, they almost always tend to see themselves as very advanced. They become very prideful when dealing with other devotees: in the sense that because they are reading books that most bhaktas don't study diligently or don't read at all, they almost always end up thinking that they are special because of that, and that their opinions are special and should be taken as authoritative.
I see this attitude all of the time from devotees who have studied rasa sastra. It's not that I think Advaita is especially different from many others who have come from similar devotional backgrounds. But, because Advaita has a blog which he updates frequently, and which is devoted exclusively to his attempt to teach everyone about rasa and lila as if he is *the* authority, he stands out amongst a common phenomenon.
The problem with that type of attitude is that if you think you know everything -- you will not try to evolve in your understanding, you will tend to become dogmatic and defensive about what you believe to be true. You will be closed off to advancing because you will see anything which deviates from what you believe to be wrong. Unless you are directly dealing with Radha Krishna -- you are not getting something right. The only way to advance is to be humble enough to know the problem is with your understanding. When your understanding is perfect - than you gain entrance into 24/7 personal rasa. If you're not there, than you need to look for flaws in your understanding instead of trying to defend your understanding as perfect.
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Post by mofo666 on Jun 12, 2009 21:32:03 GMT -6
You effin contentious lily-livered cowardly armchair philosophos sittin' on your stuffed cushions like to dismiss people of color like mojo, but I say you all be an effin laughin stock to many out there. U really ought to get off your self-rightyeous thrones and mingle with the peeps for an effin change. Hopefully this post will sit around for awhile for peeps to read before you see it and shoot it down cos you can't deal with any criticism.
Later, suckas!
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