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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 8, 2009 12:19:44 GMT -6
There is no doubt that sankirtana is stronger than dhyana. That is what is meant by that verse which is found, rather surprisingly (is it really Sanatana's verse?), only in some versions of Sanatana's BB. But that doesn't mean that dhyana is rejected any more than sravana is, which according to that verse is even less powerful than dhyana. The two or three (including sravana) are meant to complement each other, feeding and nourishing one another.
There is also no doubt that sankirtana is the main sadhana of CV. Mahaprabhu and Nitai are regarded as the "fathers" of Sankirtana by the members of the tradition. But that doesn't mean that the other forms of sadhana are to be neglected. Clearly for Sanatana both dhyana and sankirtana are to be practiced together and that is what I saw when I lived out with Baba.
I am sure you have seen it, too, as you visited the various sadhakas in your family's tradition.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 8, 2009 12:27:01 GMT -6
Here is another song by Prabhu Jagadbandhu Sundara. It is the wake up song for Radha and Krsna that goes with the wake up song for Gauranga.
Wake up Young Lady of my Life! The night has come to an end. In the tops of the trees the saris and parrots sweetly call. (There the bees are humming) (Those cuckoos are cooing:) (``Rai O Rai!") The pigeons, male and female, sing with blossoming hearts. On waking, the moon has departed for his home with all of the stars. (The moon has gone, has gone!) (The night on waking [has gone]) The lily feeling saddened has closed her eyes in irritation. (There, a ray of the sun has shone.) (That lotus smiled in pleasure.) (Dawn has revealed herself.) (O Rai wake up, O Rai!) The happy Night has ended; wake up, O Lotus of Krsna! The sweetly smiling Night, through the force of time, has hidden herself away. (Night has hidden; Night has hidden.) (Taking Peace along with her.) Your companions wait at the door with water-pots in their hands. (There, Rai and Krsna have awakened.) (That Bandhu has helped them dress.) (Your housemaids have come to the forest.) (Your mother and the girls call for you) (That Bandhu opened the door:) (``Come, Rai, come with me.")
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Post by Sakhicharan Das on Jun 8, 2009 13:31:17 GMT -6
bA! What a gorgeous meditation! Thanks again Nitai!
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Post by Sakhicharan Das on Jun 8, 2009 13:53:19 GMT -6
Clearly for Sanatana both dhyana and sankirtana are to be practiced together and that is what I saw when I lived out with Baba. I am sure you have seen it, too, as you visited the various sadhakas in your family's tradition. Jai Nitai! Yes, this is what gurudeva taught by example and instruction. His absorption in kirtan was intense and he would be lost in bhava singing the akhars of Babaji Maharaj. He told us to not look around during kirtan but to keep your eyes closed or look straight down in front of yourself. In this way one should try to meditate during kirtan in order to cultivate bhava.
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Post by Stray Thinker on Jun 8, 2009 17:09:54 GMT -6
By "I don't like solitary bhajan" I meant I dislike solitude. Loneliness is unnatural to the soul. Humans beings naturally need company. In GV this human trait is not only reflected but extremely amplified. In GV, even when one is apparently individually engaged in dhyan, in reality he or she is not engaged in a solitary activity but, on the contrary, interacts with others in a world many times more populated than this manifest world. Interaction is at the core of this religion.
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Post by Stray Thinker on Jun 8, 2009 17:14:46 GMT -6
Beautiful!
"That Bandhu..."
I wonder if he saw himself there, opening the door...
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 9, 2009 10:03:13 GMT -6
By "I don't like solitary bhajan" I meant I dislike solitude. Loneliness is unnatural to the soul. Humans beings naturally need company. In GV this human trait is not only reflected but extremely amplified. In GV, even when one is apparently individually engaged in dhyan, in reality he or she is not engaged in a solitary activity but, on the contrary, interacts with others in a world many times more populated than this manifest world. Interaction is at the core of this religion. Thanks for the clarification. I understand and I think you are perhaps right about our need for company. Bhajan is a process of gaining intimacy with Sri Radha and Krsna and their close companions. We are not moving away from other beings, but towards them and they towards us. One of my favorite definitions of religion is that provided by Whitehead: "Religion is what the individual does with his/her own solitariness." I find this particularly profound because of the very recognition of the problem of solitariness. Are we really ever solitary? On the other hand, are we really ever not solitary? He goes on to say: "It runs through three stages, if it evolves to its final satisfaction. It is the transition from God the void to God the enemy, and from God the enemy to God the companion."
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 9, 2009 10:10:25 GMT -6
Beautiful! " That Bandhu..." I wonder if he saw himself there, opening the door... This is, of course, a pretty standard vision of that morning lila. Anyone who is familiar with the Nisanta lila from the Govinda-lilamrta will recognize the basic elements: the birds singing to awaken the young lovers, the personified moon and his harem of stars retiring, the closing of the lilies which bloom at night, and the opening of the lotuses which bloom during the day, beautiful Dawn blushing as she approaches, and the threat of being discovered in the news that Radha's mother-in-law is in the vicinity calling for her. Still, Bandhu does a lovely job with the material. The Bengali is particularly sweet. And, yes, there he is as sakhi-manjari ready to help Radha return to her house undiscovered.
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Post by madanmohandas on Jun 9, 2009 11:04:02 GMT -6
Just for fun here is how the English bard treats the 'Kunja Bhanga' from Romeo and Juliet.
Juliet.
Wilt thou be gone? It is not yet near day. It was the nightingale, and not the lark, That pierced the fearful hollow of thine ear. Nightly she sings on yond pomegranate tree. Believe me, love, it was the nightingale.
Romeo.
It was the lark, the herald of the morn; No nightingale. Look, love, what envious streaks Do lace the severing clouds in yonder east. Night's candles are burnt out, and jocund day Stands tiptoe on the misty mountain tops. I must be gone and live, or stay and die.
Juliet.
Yond light is not daylight; I know it, I; It is some meteor that the sun exhaled To be to thee this night a torchbearer And light thee on the way to Mantua. Therefore stay yet; thou needst not be gone.......
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Post by Stray Thinker on Jun 9, 2009 11:41:28 GMT -6
It is of course silly to expect to talk about religion and not have God as the superstar. But as evolved as understandings such as Whitehead's may be, I think GVism goes even further. Our final satisfaction is not in finding companionship with God, but finding even deeper meaning in the companionship of lovers-of-God. And further still, the ultimate satisfaction is in the companionship of those lovers of God who are very intimate with the Greatest Lover. This is why Rupa Gosvami's discovering of manjari bhava was a breakthrough for humanity. Its even more satisfying than love of God. There is by the way a debate currently about this tradition being specifically about manjari bhava. Or not. (In western circles, there is currently such a debate). How has this been resolved in traditional circles?
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 9, 2009 12:17:42 GMT -6
Thanks Madanmohanji. It is great to hear from the Bard and the similarity (and differences) of conceits is fascinating. Here is how Govinda Das describes that bower breakup at the end of night:
At the end of the night, all the sakhis rise and study Vrndadevi's face. Exhausted from the joys of love, the Couple sleeps on still. ``Quickly wake them; Quickly send them on their way. Wake up Rai and take her home. The break of day is near. O saris, parrots, cuckoos, And all you other birds, Wake them with your voices sweet. All together tell them how Jatila is on the prowl. As soon as she hears of it, Rai will wake up." At V\d{r}nd\=adevi's words All of the birds start singing their morning calls most sweet. And near the bower-house stands with a water-pot in his hands, Govinda D\=asa a-watching.
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Post by madanmohandas on Jun 9, 2009 13:32:57 GMT -6
That's delightfull. It would be great to have a collection of all the Astakaliya padavali of the various Mahajan poets.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 9, 2009 14:03:39 GMT -6
It is of course silly to expect to talk about religion and not have God as the superstar. But as evolved as understandings such as Whitehead's may be, I think GVism goes even further. Our final satisfaction is not in finding companionship with God, but finding even deeper meaning in the companionship of lovers-of-God. And further still, the ultimate satisfaction is in the companionship of those lovers of God who are very intimate with the Greatest Lover. This is why Rupa Gosvami's discovering of manjari bhava was a breakthrough for humanity. Its even more satisfying than love of God. There is by the way a debate currently about this tradition being specifically about manjari bhava. Or not. (In western circles, there is currently such a debate). How has this been resolved in traditional circles? What is the nature of the debate? What is it about? Whether everyone must be a manjari or not? Certainly manjari-bhava has received the most attention and development in traditional circles, but there is also a strong sakhya-bhava sub-community. Many of the disciples of Prabhupada Pranagopal Goswami favored that relationship. I've met several in my wanderings. I think that Whitehead deserves a lot of credit for helping Western philosophy and theology get caught up to where Indian philosophy was over 2000 years ago. Unfortunately, Indian philosophy has been sitting on its tush for a large part of that time and so it hasn't advanced much beyond where it was back then. Whitehead's changing the focus of Western thought from substance to process opened up many new possibilities. Most importantly the social nature of God became recognized. That is what is important about the idea of having God as a companion. And companions can be of many sorts. That is where there has arisen a greater harmony now between post-process Western theology and CV theology than there was before. Doesn't the voyeuristic quality of manjari-bhava bother you a bit?
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Post by ST on Jun 9, 2009 16:04:19 GMT -6
Aha! So Nitai is bothered by the manjari bug too. ;D I thought that might be the case. No problem though, so many rupanugas find themselves a little troubled that way. Well, personally, I am not bothered one way or the other because I am at the level of theory only, wondering what the experience of it all might be like. Theoretically manjarihood makes sense to me, but as far as being attracted to it, well, as I said, at the stage I am presently, I find it all just amusing. I like to be around people who take these things very seriously though. I love to watch the rasa wars, makes me wish I had some bhava myself. But its all good, as Toongi would say...
Oh I almost forgot, yes, the debate is whether everyone should be a manjari. Something like that.
"Most importantly the social nature of God became recognized. That is what is important about the idea of having God as a companion. And companions can be of many sorts. That is where there has arisen a greater harmony now between post-process Western theology and CV theology than there was before."
Could you elaborate a bit on the highlighted portion of that your statement, please?
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 10, 2009 9:02:11 GMT -6
Aha! So Nitai is bothered by the manjari bug too. ;D I thought that might be the case. No problem though, so many rupanugas find themselves a little troubled that way. Well, personally, I am not bothered one way or the other because I am at the level of theory only, wondering what the experience of it all might be like. Theoretically manjarihood makes sense to me, but as far as being attracted to it, well, as I said, at the stage I am presently, I find it all just amusing. I like to be around people who take these things very seriously though. I love to watch the rasa wars, makes me wish I had some bhava myself. But its all good, as Toongi would say... Oh I almost forgot, yes, the debate is whether everyone should be a manjari. Something like that. " Most importantly the social nature of God became recognized. That is what is important about the idea of having God as a companion. And companions can be of many sorts. That is where there has arisen a greater harmony now between post-process Western theology and CV theology than there was before." Could you elaborate a bit on the highlighted portion of that your statement, please? I am talking about Process Theology which developed out of Whitehead's Process Thought which he says is a development of the philosophy of organism that was developed by previous Western philosophers but which was "put aside" by subsequent systematizers. Anyway, all this is for me at present half-baked. I am still doing lots of reading on it and trying to discover what lies at its inner core. Something tells me that this nexus of ideas is important, not only for finding a language within which we might better express the core ideas of CV, especially the peculiar psycho-phenomenon of manjari-bhava, which I don't in any way profess to understand yet, but also for helping CV move beyond its dogmatic and culture-bound wrappings into a truly universal and modern period of development and evolution. Manjari-hood doesn't make a lot of sense to me, even theoretically. Who was it who said: "I believe because it is absurd?" That is pretty much my condition at present, truth be told. But one shouldn't go around telling the truth, right? Especially in this company. There are a lot of folks around who "think" they know. All we who "ought" to know can do is sit quietly and smile. Anyway, no manjari practice yet for you? You should get yourself a siddha-deha and take it out for a spin. It is an interesting experience.
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