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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 5, 2020 18:09:55 GMT -6
This short work is almost complete. It's full title will be The Essence of Instruction (Upadesa-sara): three works of guidance from early Caitanya Vaisnavism. It needs an introduction, but the rest has been edited and checked. All the references have been given (except in the case of one or two). Once the introduction has been completed, I will send it off to our graphics designer to create a suitable cover. All told, we are about two weeks away from its release. Please point out any errors or typos or other problems. You can read the latest version here. |
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Post by malati on Oct 5, 2020 20:05:11 GMT -6
Someone might object to that, Just a small one, word "to" is missing. Second paragraph, page 1.
I've only read 2 pages but I've got a big one for you, Nitaidasji.
After the verses on page 2, are those annotations from Madan Mohan das? I'm not planning to critically review it but as if my mind told me to check it against other translations.
If he did, I have to ask you Nitaidasji to please check the BRS 1.4.15-16 for me. I checked the paraphrasing that Modanmohandas did against what I found on the internet, a translation of the BBT. What I notice is that in MMdas paraphrasing, I suppose he's not translating it literally, initiation by a guru is omitted.
I pasted the original verse and BBT translations below:
ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo’tha bhajana-kriyā |
tato’nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ ||1.4.15||
athāsaktis tato bhāvas tataḥ premābhyudañcati |
sādhakānām ayaṃ premnaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ ||1.4.16||
English translation
“In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. This taste
leads one further forward to attachment for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is matured in bhāva, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life.”
I don't know how they're translated in the Jiva Inst.'s work.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 6, 2020 1:05:39 GMT -6
Someone might object to that, Just a small one, word "to" is missing. Second paragraph, page 1. I've only read 2 pages but I've got a big one for you, Nitaidasji. After the verses on page 2, are those annotations from Madan Mohan das? I'm not planning to critically review it but as if my mind told me to check it against other translations. If he did, I have to ask you Nitaidasji to please check the BRS 1.4.15-16 for me. I checked the paraphrasing that Modanmohandas did against what I found on the internet, a translation of the BBT. What I notice is that in MMdas paraphrasing, I suppose he's not translating it literally, initiation by a guru is omitted. I pasted the original verse and BBT translations below: ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo’tha bhajana-kriyā | tato’nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ ||1.4.15|| athāsaktis tato bhāvas tataḥ premābhyudañcati | sādhakānām ayaṃ premnaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ ||1.4.16|| English translation “In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is matured in bhāva, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life.” I don't know how they're translated in the Jiva Inst.'s work. Malatidasi, thanks for your concern. I think Madanmohandasji has done a fine job of representing in poetic language those two verses from the Brs. Do you see anything in the Sanskrit that indicates guru-diksa? That is because there isn't anything. BBT has continued the fine tradition started by Bhaktivedanta Swami of mistranslating Sanskrit texts. Ironically, the mistranslation is precisely on IGM's weakest point: guru-diksa which they completely lack. It reminds me of a sociological observation that is sometimes heard and that seems to be experientially, if not experimentally, well supported, namely, that the people who are the most stupid, think that they are the most smart. Those who are the most intelligent constantly doubt themselves. Not so the dummies! This is not to say that guru-diksa and siksa are not important. But, Rupa does not mention it here. He mentions it as the first anga or limb of the 64 limbs of bhakti. At Brs. 1.2.74 he says gurupAdAzrayas and then tasmAt krsnadIkSAdi-zikSaNam. He expands on those at Brs. 1.2.97 and 98 |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 6, 2020 22:09:13 GMT -6
I really don't recommend that anyone read BBT books. It is the old poison mixed with nectar metaphor. Only the poison will kill you. or, at least kill your chances for bhakti.
What poison, you ask? Vaisnava-aparadha.
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Post by Ed on Oct 9, 2020 9:48:20 GMT -6
This short work is almost complete. It's full title will be The Essence of Instruction (Upadesa-sara): three works of guidance from early Caitanya Vaisnavism. It needs an introduction, but the rest has been edited and checked. All the references have been given (except in the case of one or two). Once the introduction has been completed, I will send it off to our graphics designer to create a suitable cover. All told, we are about two weeks away from its release. Please point out any errors or typos or other problems. You can read the latest version here.Hi, Nitai Thank you for sharing this. I thought it was great, and I liked the commentary: short, straightforward and rich with many relevant and beautiful citations, seems a little more aimed at seasoned practitioners but even an “outsider” wouldn’t feel so lost thanks to the explanations. I’m more accustomed to the blank verse style of translations, but reading it I found the rendering charming and equally accurate, I can only imagine the hard work that was put into it. Thank you, Madanmohandasji, for sharing it with us, both in this book and on this Symposium. I noticed just a few minor things: In page 5, second quoted verse, from the BhP, third line: “ Byt singing Krsna’s holy name and fame” In page 9, the footnote for the reference of the citation, I think the verse number missing there is the 7th. In page 22, in the last two lines of the quoted verse: Like some potent simple it cures all ills, Captures the ear, the mind with rapture fulls. Is that correct, or should it be fills? In page 25, second line of the first text paragraph, it says: “where he dwells with his Goddess consorts and attendants.” Sounded kind of strange to me, but not sure if it is meant to be so, or is there maybe a comma missing between Goddess and consorts, signifying the one and the many others? In page 28, the page number is still in Devanagari as well as the title of the section. In that same page, second quoted verse: “And with a flimy silk…” is flimy a word? Or is it flimsy, or filmy? In page 32, and this might be by choice, but in the first verse of the translated text, the words Brahman and Mantra in the 5th and 6th lines are in italic to differentiate them but they are not in bold, while the rest of the verse is, it still works of course, I just don't know if it was meant to be like that. In page 35, page number and title of the section are still partially in Devanagari. In page 39, after the title “Verse Six: Avoidance…” Second line has “molified”, I guess an “L” is missing there. In page 40, the closure of the transliterated verse usually fits the same line, while here it falls into the next line/space, and looks a little strange, but maybe that's unavoidable: "... ca sukhaya ll 6 ll" In page 46, second line: “…comprised of knowledge. bliss, and truth” There's that period instead of a comma. That's about all that I noticed. Again, thanks for sharing. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 9, 2020 12:28:53 GMT -6
Thanks, Eduardo. This is great. Something always slips through. Evidence of karaNApAtava,faultiness of the senses and of the way around this flaw, having others check one's work.
राधे राधे!
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 9, 2020 16:58:44 GMT -6
Well, I went through and made all the corrections I could. I still have no idea how two headings in the book are appearing in Devanagari. I mostly fixed them except that, for some reason, the page numbers on those two pages are still being set in Devanagari. I noticed something like this before in the Mahamantra book and in the translation of Kanupriya Goswami's Nama-cintamani . There must be an issue with the software. I will continue to pursue it. I will post a revised version of the Upadesa-sara shortly.
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Post by malati on Oct 9, 2020 23:09:37 GMT -6
Well, I can see the words "bhajan kriya" there. Modan Mohan dasji When reading the work, I did not set out to criticize your translations, even as you admitted that you are not initiated into the traditional line. Like the site owner, I welcome everyone here because I learn from non-initiated too. Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu Bindu is one of the body of work I would like to acquire and read in full before I leave this planet, so I when I saw that you quoted Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu Bindu in the manner that you did, my mind directed me to find out how others translated the verse. I only found BBT translation. And the omission about the guru is so glaring. When I left the site I recalled one of the most important verses in the Gita, 4.34. And I wondered how you translated it, in The Song Divine, the Bhagavad Gita by C C Caleb knowing that you said in one of your recent posts that you think taking initiation can encourage sectarianism and so you're now, as you call yourself a "Bhagavatam reader" . Now, I wonder if you ever took initiation from any GV or IGM group. You seem to have a very strong opinion against initiation, when initiation from a sampradaya is a very important stop in the GV journey. Initiation by a guru is one of the elements that differentate Eastern belief system from the Western system. Did your strong position against initiation influence your translation of 4.34. ( I wonder if Nitaidas, had a part in the translation of the whole book). I'll be frank, I think your translations of BG 4.34 is pale and I believe lacking the spirit of the verse. I'm quite disappointed . I must admit even though I have the book since 2011, I've only just started reading it . Translation work is hard , you have to balance literal accuracy with the spirit of the verse. Probably, I think you were limited by the form you used, through a poem and C C Caleb's poetic rendering of the original text. But I don't know how Caleb actually paraphrased the verse. I quote your translations below ,along with the others. You use the term" discipleship" and "guide". While the others use "approach in prostration" and "teach or instruct". And their tone has a sense of urgency. Pranipatena means prostration. tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah This learn thou by discipleship By service and by questionings The wise who have perceived the truth Will guide thee unto wisdom's ways. The Song Divine, Blazing Sapphire, 4.34 mahabharatham.arasan.info/2000/09/Bhishma-Parva-Section-028.htmlLearn that (Knowledge) by prostration, enquiry, and service. They who are possessed of knowledge and can see the truth, will teach thee that knowledge, knowing which, O son of Pandu, thou wilt not again come by such delusion, and by which thou wilt see the endless creatures (of the universe) in thyself (first) and then in me. BG 4:34-35 www.origin.org/ucs/ws/theme115.cfm Approach someone who has realized the purpose of life and question him with reverence and devotion; he will instruct you in this wisdom BG 4.34 A Project of the International Religious Foundation, Paragon House suryasatya.wordpress.com/tag/tad-viddhi-pranipatena/For knowledge we have got to go to the right person, one who has actually seen or experienced the Absolute Truth. Unless we find such a person who has actually seen the Absolute Truth or who has in his experience what is Absolute Truth, there is very little chance of our spiritual advancement. BG 4.34 advaitasadhana.wordpress.com/category/bhakti-texts/Know that by long prostration, by question, and service, the ‘wise’ who have realized the Truth will instruct you in (that) ‘Knowledge’ . BG 4.34, Advaita Vedanta The Advaita Vedanta explains how important it is to have a guru, thus: We think “I am a devotee of the Lord. I don’t need any other Teacher. I will buy some books like Geeta and that is enough !” However, we can see that Lord himself has said that – we do, in fact, need a Teacher (Guru) ! |
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Post by malati on Oct 10, 2020 0:07:35 GMT -6
Nitaidas: It reminds me of a sociological observation that is sometimes heard and that seems to be experientially, if not experimentally, well supported, namely, that the people who are the most stupid, think that they are the most smart. Those who are the most intelligent constantly doubt themselves. Not so the dummies!
What exactly do you mean by that, Nitadasji?
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 10, 2020 5:42:53 GMT -6
Well, I can see the words "bhajan kriya" there. Modan Mohan dasji When reading the work, I did not set out to criticize your translations, even as you admitted that you are not initiated into the traditional line. Like the site owner, I welcome everyone here because I learn from non-initiated too. Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu Bindu is one of the body of work I would like to acquire and read in full before I leave this planet, so I when I saw that you quoted Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu Bindu in the manner that you did, my mind directed me to find out how others translated the verse. I only found BBT translation. And the omission about the guru is so glaring. When I left the site I recalled one of the most important verses in the Gita, 4.34. And I wondered how you translated it, in The Song Divine, the Bhagavad Gita by C C Caleb knowing that you said in one of your recent posts that you think taking initiation can encourage sectarianism and so you're now, as you call yourself a "Bhagavatam reader" . Now, I wonder if you ever took initiation from any GV or IGM group. You seem to have a very strong opinion against initiation, when initiation from a sampradaya is a very important stop in the GV journey. Initiation by a guru is one of the elements that differentate Eastern belief system from the Western system. Did your strong position against initiation influence your translation of 4.34. ( I wonder if Nitaidas, had a part in the translation of the whole book). I'll be frank, I think your translations of BG 4.34 is pale and I believe lacking the spirit of the verse. I'm quite disappointed . I must admit even though I have the book since 2011, I've only just started reading it . Translation work is hard , you have to balance literal accuracy with the spirit of the verse. Probably, I think you were limited by the form you used, through a poem and C C Caleb's poetic rendering of the original text. But I don't know how Caleb actually paraphrased the verse. I quote your translations below ,along with the others. You use the term" discipleship" and "guide". While the others use "approach in prostration" and "teach or instruct". And their tone has a sense of urgency. Pranipatena means prostration. tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah This learn thou by discipleship By service and by questionings The wise who have perceived the truth Will guide thee unto wisdom's ways. The Song Divine, Blazing Sapphire, 4.34 mahabharatham.arasan.info/2000/09/Bhishma-Parva-Section-028.htmlLearn that (Knowledge) by prostration, enquiry, and service. They who are possessed of knowledge and can see the truth, will teach thee that knowledge, knowing which, O son of Pandu, thou wilt not again come by such delusion, and by which thou wilt see the endless creatures (of the universe) in thyself (first) and then in me. BG 4:34-35 www.origin.org/ucs/ws/theme115.cfm Approach someone who has realized the purpose of life and question him with reverence and devotion; he will instruct you in this wisdom BG 4.34 A Project of the International Religious Foundation, Paragon House suryasatya.wordpress.com/tag/tad-viddhi-pranipatena/For knowledge we have got to go to the right person, one who has actually seen or experienced the Absolute Truth. Unless we find such a person who has actually seen the Absolute Truth or who has in his experience what is Absolute Truth, there is very little chance of our spiritual advancement. BG 4.34 advaitasadhana.wordpress.com/category/bhakti-texts/Know that by long prostration, by question, and service, the ‘wise’ who have realized the Truth will instruct you in (that) ‘Knowledge’ . BG 4.34, Advaita Vedanta The Advaita Vedanta explains how important it is to have a guru, thus: We think “I am a devotee of the Lord. I don’t need any other Teacher. I will buy some books like Geeta and that is enough !” However, we can see that Lord himself has said that – we do, in fact, need a Teacher (Guru) ! Well first of all I should say the Gita 4.34 you have there is not mine but Caleb's. I have done the whole Gita in heroic couplets myself, and my rendering of the verse goes like this, To learn of this 'tis meet you should repair, And with prostration, serve with pious care And question those who are in wisdom wise, And they will guide and teach you wisdom's ways. You may not think it any less pale, but that is my one. Now, addressing some of your other observations, first I have not cited any verse from Visvanatha's Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu Bindu, but from Rupa's Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu. As you may observe there is no mention of guru in the original. I would have thought that examining the verse minutely it would have been noticed that I have made a glaring omission (that even Nitai might have overlooked), but I will leave to see if any one can discover it. As for guru, I do not have a strong opinion against gurus or initiation, but I react too much perhaps to the extravagance of guru cults. I was initiated, first by Bhagavan Dasa in ISKCON, then by Bhakti Srirupa Bhagavat Maharaja in GM. I also received siddha pranali and ekadasa bhava from Gadadhara Prana Dasa. Now you know why I am so messed up.  I'm a bit sorry that you find me something of an itarajan outsider, but you have every right to doubt my sincerity I suppose. |
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 10, 2020 5:50:55 GMT -6
That looks really cool Nitai, and the picture. I am assuming there is more of your introduction to come.
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 10, 2020 9:49:16 GMT -6
Someone might object to that, Just a small one, word "to" is missing. Second paragraph, page 1. I've only read 2 pages but I've got a big one for you, Nitaidasji. After the verses on page 2, are those annotations from Madan Mohan das? I'm not planning to critically review it but as if my mind told me to check it against other translations. If he did, I have to ask you Nitaidasji to please check the BRS 1.4.15-16 for me. I checked the paraphrasing that Modanmohandas did against what I found on the internet, a translation of the BBT. What I notice is that in MMdas paraphrasing, I suppose he's not translating it literally, initiation by a guru is omitted. I pasted the original verse and BBT translations below: ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhu-saṅgo’tha bhajana-kriyā | tato’nartha-nivṛttiḥ syāt tato niṣṭhā rucis tataḥ ||1.4.15|| athāsaktis tato bhāvas tataḥ premābhyudañcati | sādhakānām ayaṃ premnaḥ prādurbhāve bhavet kramaḥ ||1.4.16|| English translation “In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is matured in bhāva, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life.” I don't know how they're translated in the Jiva Inst.'s work. Someone may object that (not to that) because it would be an objection to the previous passage, but from what follows, 'someone may object that this or that is etc. |
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 10, 2020 10:24:10 GMT -6
On page 4 Of all things sweet this is the purest sweetness. If you make 'purest' there is half a foot too many. You can drop the 'est' or 'the' or the 'is' to fit the measure. Of all things sweet this is purest sweetness. Also in the same 'Uttered' 'uttered' Page 5 'It ravishes the senses with delightS'. to rhyme with 'alights' 'Since by THE word a creature may atone' 'And plunge IN the sea of beatitude. not 'into' again for the measure. page 6 'Endowed' I had 'endued'. Why change that? page 7 'Quite unabashed, in humility bends' not 'he' bends. again for the measure. 'erst' not 'once'. page 9 first line at the top lacking half a foot. I think you must have changed 'nothing' for 'naught'. 'Sans motive and which nothing might impede'. deDUM deDUM deDUM deDUM deDUMM Ok I hope you don't mind, I shall not say anything on the last couplet of the Jagannastakam verse except 'Upon the optic pathway of my sight' Strange as it may sound is closer to 'nayana patha gaami' ? Of course I think most of the alterations so far are fine. I will come back later. |
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 10, 2020 10:43:19 GMT -6
Oh. on page 11, what happened to Imbibing the narratives through the ears, Of him whose hand the sign of cartwheel bears; That of his names and births and deeds relate, When in the world he deigns to incarnate; Thus one should wander unattached and free, And unabashed sing of his high glory. On page 13 you have This verse of rapturous poems is the best with rapt'rous would be needed unless you drop the 'the' If I may suggest, although I'm sure you know, when scanning lines it is better to count the feet and not the syllables. If the feet are right the syllables will follow, but just counting syllables will not give the true rhythm of the meter. further on page 13 'No fourth person beside Gaura THERE IS'. Why 'exists' why drop a near perfect rhyme for less perfect one. There is nothing wrong with an 'is' occasionally at the end of a line. on page 14 'begun' has been replaced by 'began', but it has to rhyme with 'run' a minor grammatical anomaly I would abide for the sake of a rhyme, especially as it would be the only line that did not rhyme, which makes it more conspicuous that the grammar flaw. But you must be getting exasperated with me now. |
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 10, 2020 14:46:09 GMT -6
Page 15 should be 'whoso' not 'he who's' I do not think it is right to be making such changes as they are simply a matter of taste. I want to increase diction rather than diminish it.
page 16.
the first line of the Gita quote is wrong metrically, my original line was exactly how I intended it,
'But, who can here endure and tolerate'
page 18
An alteration has been made
'To serve him and seek friendship sublime' here half a foot is missing, if you prefer this reading an extra 'to' would need to be inserted, such as,
'To serve him and TO seek service sublime.
My original line again was not wrong and so I do not see why it was altered.
'Divine servitude and friendship sublime.'
page 19
an extra 'most' has been inserted as,
'Is the best and most desired company'
Should be,
Is the best and de-si-erd company.
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I'm a bit sorry that you find me something of an itarajan outsider, but you have every right to doubt my sincerity I suppose.