Upadesa-sara (Essence of Instruction)

[meeno8]

Good points Malati. However, if one has enough proficiency in Sanskrit and/or Bengali, they should not have to rely upon some other translation into English (or some other European language), to do competent translations. They may not be entirely perfect, but that is why we have editors to check the work before it goes to press.

Nitai ji's point is that you have all those IGMers trying to pass off their mistranslations, let alone the 'purports' chock full of apasiddhanta. There is not dearth of bilingual people on the planet, and they are paid very well to work at the United Nations as real-time translators in sessions.

[Nitaidas]

Dear Malati, you are very persistent, but it is still a bad translation. If one wants to write a commentarial note on the verse and say " oh, by the way you should learn from a guru," that would be fine, but to pass it off as part of the verse itself is simply mistranslation. Why stop there? In order to do bhajana-kriya one needs to be alive, so one needs to have a mother and a father, and to stay alive one needs a cook and food, and so on and so forth. The words sadhu-sanga in the verse are more likely to include a connection to the guru. I wish you would let it go. If I embarrassed you, I am sorry. As I said in my comments then Rupa stressed the importance of having a guru in another place in the same work. Why should he have to mention it in every verse?

[madanmohandas]

"I'm sure some of you can translate CV texts because other Indians have translated them before, then you use a software translator and then check out other work of other translator. We have to be humble enough to admit that. That's why I pointed out the words "bhajan kriya" in the quote in the OP. It just not mean doing bhajan, with your own effort. In our tradition it has to be instructed by a guru, otherwise it's just like pretending. I heard that from someone."

That's a bit mean. Humble enough to admit using software, God forbid.

bhajana kriya does just mean 'doing bhajan', no more no less, who are you to improve on the original?

Anyway your low opinion of me but confirms my non affiliation. You make me feel so miserable because I do not understand why you make such an issue of it. Do you really feel so strongly that you can not read my metric renderings otherwise than ill favouredly? There is not much I can do about that.

Perhaps you allude to Caleb's Gita, yes I have relied and been inspired by his rendering, in fact it was me, I think that first introduced it to Natai. However Caleb, I believe was following Arnold who fist did the Gita in metric or poetic idiom. As for previous translations of other stuff it goes without saying they would be referenced, Indian or otherwise, whatever that has to do with it.

As for what's your name and how are you addressed, it was just idle chat, not be taken seriously.

And what is British language? Hahahahahaha, it's English. British language would be Celtic. Hahahaha

Also, if you see the Manah Siksa, there is reference to Guru there. I was not trying to exclude Guru or in any way diminish the importance of having one.

[meeno8]

I disagree on one point, Madanmohandas Ji, and that is about the discussion of literal translations being just idle chat. If we want to take the Bengali language, instead of Spanish, there is the double verb for the phrase 'niye jachi', which literally would translate (using the Bengali 'to take' plus 'to go') as 'taking I go' (niye = taking; jachi = I go). In English we just say 'I am carrying' or 'I carry', using a single verb, which is 'to carry'. We do not generally have that Bengali construct, although one may engage in multiple activities simultaneously.


I think if we go on about this whole translation/mistranslation business, we are going to get sidetracked from what is really important, which is studying the texts, and even more importantly figuring out how to fit them into the context of our current environment, which has been mentioned more than once on multiple threads here.

[madanmohandas]

Oct 28, 2020 15:51:17 GMT -6 meeno8 said:

I disagree on one point, Madanmohandas Ji, and that is about the discussion of literal translations being just idle chat. If we want to take the Bengali language, instead of Spanish, there is the double verb for the phrase 'niye jachi', which literally would translate (using the Bengali 'to take' plus 'to go') as 'taking I go' (niye = taking; jachi = I go). In English we just say 'I am carrying' or 'I carry', using a single verb, which is 'to carry'. We do not generally have that Bengali construct, although one may engage in multiple activities simultaneously.


I think if we go on about this whole translation/mistranslation business, we are going to get sidetracked from what is really important, which is studying the texts, and even more importantly figuring out how to fit them into the context of our current environment, which has been mentioned more than once on multiple threads here.

Yes indeed. The idle chat was in reference to me. Of course literal and idiomatic are vital considerations. I was just speculating on 'how are you named' whether it implies a deferential tone, as it seems to say, 'in what manner and how should you prefer to be known? Perhaps with the consideration that it might be rude to ask, and a person may not wish to say or divulge their name. Over against that, 'what is your name'? sounds more peremptory,and to make more polite, 'May I know your name?' or even 'good name'.
Thank heavens it's only one thing you disagree on there.

PS. What about, 'I carry away', 'I'm carrying off' or I take away? or I take/carry forth? (that's what I mean by idle chat)

[madanmohandas]

Here's a nice verse.

adiksitasya murkhasya
niskrti naasti niscita/
sarvakarmasvanarhasya
narake tatpasoh sthitih//

Which might go something like this,

The fool uninitiated doth remain,
Sans conviction, and all his merits vain.
His practice is of no worth, and must dwell,
For his sin, like a brute in horrid hell.

Brahma Vaivarta. KJK. 59.248

[meeno8]

Yes, I got your point about the nuance in asking for someone's name, and the more polite way to go about it, at some social gathering as opposed to appearing before a judge in court that asks you for it, and even then a polite way. If some child on the playground is misbehaving, then a teacher might just get right to the point without any protocol, but the situation dictates that. In high school Spanish class we just started with some basics, and asking for someone's name was under that category. Hence, 'Como se llama, por favor', would be more polite (se being the honorific for 'you', along with llama instead of llamas).

As far as the double verb construct in Bengali, it requires 2 different verbs (niye and jachi) to mean 'carry'. It does not mean that all actions in the language require combining different ones. My point was just another example of what would not translate literally into English, without being too awkward.

[malati]

Oh Nitaidas, I'm not embarrassed at all. You have your opinions, I have mine. And sorry to say, I prefer Bhaktivedanta Swami's translation over Madanmohandas'. I'm done with this thread.

I'm now back having gone to another state to visit my daughter. My absence here saved me from unnecessary argumentation during Kartik, a holy month.

[Nitaidas]

Nov 30, 2020 23:53:47 GMT -6 malati said:

Oh Nitaidas, I'm not embarrassed at all. You have your opinions, I have mine. And sorry to say, I prefer Bhaktivedanta Swami's translation over Madanmohandas'. I'm done with this thread.

I'm now back having gone to another state to visit my daughter. My absence here saved me from unnecessary argumentation during Kartik, a holy month.

Dearest Malati, you know not all opinions are the same or even equal. Some opinions are supported by evidence and some are not. If I said that in my opinion the earth is flat and you said in your opinion the earth is a globe, one of us would be right and the other wrong. Our opinions would not be equal. Your preference for Bhaktivedanta's translation is truly sad, especially on this point of diksa. It is like you are rubbing it in his face. He was one of the unfortunates who never got proper diksa and thus was never able to give it to anyone. His insistence on it rings hollow, therefore. Moreover, he was not a very good Sanskritist. He only studied it for two years at Scottish Churches College. No one learns Sanskrit well in two years. When I was an editor for his works I found many mistakes and inconsistencies. All of his translations end up sounding the same, even though different verses are being translated. That is why he did not want any of his disciples to study Sanskrit. He knew he would be found out. He could not even divide the sandhis between words properly sometimes. I feel sorry for him. He was not fortunate like you and me. We managed to see through IGM and get proper initiation into living and vibrant lineages that are supercharged by direct connection to Sri Caitanya or his close disciples. Others in IGM did manage to figure it out and leave the company of the Kapata Vaisnavas. They eventually found shelter in the real tradition. Ananta Vasudeva Das tried his best to save his guru-bhais and he succeeded in several cases. But, many more were greedy and comfortable with their positions in GM (there was no Isckon then). They were the unfortunate ones, the ones who were well fed and had people bowing down to them and calling them "Maharaja," but who never got real diksa. In addition, Bhaktivedanta like so many of his gurubhai was a Vaisnava aparadhi. Your own guru was condemned by him and his cohort, as was mine. Your preference for his work or the work of anyone in IGM is a tacit acceptance of their offenses to your guru. I would avoid their work like the plague.

[Nitaidas]

I am happy to announce that we are almost done with this work. Madanmohandasji has approved and the only hold up is in the appendix. I decided to include translations of two poems by Raghunatha Dasa Goswami: the Sri Caitanyastaka (aka Sri Sacisunvastaka) and the Gauranga-stava-kalpa-taru. These are poems upon which much the description of the activities of Mahaprabhu in Puri in the Caitanya-caritamrta is based. Sri Raghunatha Das Goswami was an intimate companion of Mahaprabhu for the last 16 years of his life. Compared to the other Goswamis Raghunatha Das had the most first-hand and intimate experience of Sri Caitanya. His works are the best windows into the life of Mahaprabhu as he experienced and demonstrated Krsna prema in action.

Here is a preview of the cover:



There are still a few edits needed for the back cover, but for the most part it is done.

Any comments?

[meeno8]

Cover looks great.

[Nitaidas]

Thanks, Babu.

[service to Radha's feet]

Very nice!

[Nitaidas]

Well, I am happy to announce that The Essence of Instruction is finally done. I have uploaded it to Ingram, but not signed off on it yet. They are still fitting it to their system, so there is still time for corrections. I am uploading it here so that the members of this symposium can view it and help with proofreading it. Twenty eyes are better than two. It now comes to 105 pages with the appendices and has three lovely pictures which I found that are creative commons, that is, public domain. I will post those in the Krsna pictures thread of this forum. These pictures are so much more beautiful than anything IGM ever produced. You will see what I mean. So, please have a look and let me know if you spot anything that needs attention or correction. Thank you! And thank you Madanmohandasji for your extraordinary patience!

upadesasara-trans-main-opt-ebook.pdf (607.77 KB)

[Nitaidas]

Anyone found anything to fix, so far? I have found a few small things here and there. And for some reason that I have not yet figured out there appears the occasional page number in Devanagari. I have noticed that happening with a few of the recent books like the Mahamantra book, for instance. I need to consult the community that uses the typesetting tools that I use to see if there is a work-around. Anyway, thanks for the help.