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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 10, 2020 15:15:29 GMT -6
Nitaidas: It reminds me of a sociological observation that is sometimes heard and that seems to be experientially, if not experimentally, well supported, namely, that the people who are the most stupid, think that they are the most smart. Those who are the most intelligent constantly doubt themselves. Not so the dummies! What exactly do you mean by that, Nitadasji? I had in mind the IGMers who question nothing and are completely confident that they are right, even when they clearly mistranslate things. And I wondered a little bit about you. Did you even look at the Sanskrit that you posted along with the verse? And now you seem to have mistaken Caleb's work for Madanmohandas's?! Is everything okay, Malati? Why this animus towards Madanmohandasji and I suspect through him towards me? |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 10, 2020 15:17:20 GMT -6
That looks really cool Nitai, and the picture. I am assuming there is more of your introduction to come. Yes, I am working on it.  |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 10, 2020 15:38:11 GMT -6
Malatidasi, do you really think that just by bowing down you will learn the truth? Try it then for the next twenty years and let us know if it works. Just as with seva and pariprazna, pranipata means bowing down to a guru who is a jnani. That is discipleship. Caleb translated it that way so that idiots who take things too literally don't waste their time bowing down in the middle of the road instead of approaching a guru. The learned guru is the object of all three of those actions.
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Post by malati on Oct 19, 2020 13:12:50 GMT -6
Come on, Nitaidas, we're discussing ways of translating.
If a text in the original language says the car came to a screeching stop , why would you translate it to, the car came to a stop. No need for you change it if the text is very clear and especially if it conforms to the spirit of the text,
A philosophical discussion of the importance of taking initiation from a guru merits a book.
MadanMohandas
You are already doing service by your translation work. If you feel it in your heart , please approach someone to help you with initiation. There's something more than just you reading the texts. You can ask Advaitadas, Radhapadadas or even Nitaidasji or others here.
Just because you got burned by the environment of a particular group doesn't not undermine the importance of taking shelter of a guru in our tradition and it's benefits on a psychological and maybe even metaphysical levels.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 19, 2020 13:51:17 GMT -6
Come on, Nitaidas, we're discussing ways of translating. If a text in the original language says the car came to a screeching stop , why would you translate it to, the car came to a stop. No need for you change it if the text is very clear and especially if it conforms to the spirit of the text, A philosophical discussion of the importance of taking initiation from a guru merits a book. All I can say here, dear Malati, is bullshit! A translation should stick to what the original text really says with small additions to make the original make sense in the target language. Whole new topics should not introduced. What we want to hear is what Rupa has to say in that verse not what some jackass thinks he ought to be saying. Poetic license should not turn into a miscarriage of translation. What you have in that ISKCON translation is a bunch of uninitiated asses braying about the importance of initiation. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 19, 2020 14:08:07 GMT -6
You really don't understand the lengths to which Nilamadhavadasji has gone to try to find shelter with an authentic guru. He is not being slack about it in any way. You are starting sound a bit like that censorious simian Subrato who thinks because he is initiated he can tell those who aren't initiated to shut their mouths. This is a kind of ad-hominem argument. It puts down the speaker without attending to the truth or validity of what they have to say. It is not so easy to find a good guru, these days, but Krsna will certainly bless them with proper guides when the time is right.
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Post by malati on Oct 19, 2020 19:44:10 GMT -6
Nitaidas
I didn't mention NilaMadhavadas. I'm talking to Madanmohandas.
Seriously, Nitaidasji, giving my opinions in your world means shutting down other people. The thread is still open for them to respond!
I'm not talking of poetic license. I'm bilingual., I speak English and Tagalog and in college I did Spanish for 2 semesters as it's a curriculum requirement; we were once a colony of Spain.
My son is learning Tagalog. Although my son went to a language school every Saturday for 2 years to learn Tagalog, still when I translate or interpret for him, I sometimes give him the context by which certain sentences mean differently from what he thinks they mean. Context means the cultural rooting of those ideas and the connotation some words entail, not to mention that some Tagalog words just don't have a one word counterpart in English.
That's why I said translating is hard if you really want to give a full picture of the idea. What to say of translating philosophical ideas which were written in a language we don't speak at all.
Nitaidasji, don't get mad at me. I love you dada.
Btw, I' saw a picture of an old painting on the internet of the 6 goswamis. Although I'm developing an impressionistic style It is in my queu to paint.. When I finish I'll show it to you and if you like you can use it in any of your work, as you like for free.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 19, 2020 21:11:48 GMT -6
Nitaidas I didn't mention NilaMadhavadas. I'm talking to Madanmohandas. Seriously, Nitaidasji, giving my opinions in your world means shutting down other people. The thread is still open for them to respond! I'm not talking of poetic license. I'm bilingual., I speak English and Tagalog and in college I did Spanish for 2 semesters as it's a curriculum requirement; we were once a colony of Spain. My son is learning Tagalog. Although my son went to a language school every Saturday for 2 years to learn Tagalog, still when I translate or interpret for him, I sometimes give him the context by which certain sentences mean differently from what he thinks they mean. Context means the cultural rooting of those ideas and the connotation some words entail, not to mention that some Tagalog words just don't have a one word counterpart in English. That's why I said translating is hard if you really want to give a full picture of the idea. What to say of translating philosophical ideas which were written in a language we don't speak at all. Nitaidasji, don't get mad at me. I love you dada. Btw, I' saw a picture of an old painting on the internet of the 6 goswamis. Although I'm developing an impressionistic style It is in my queu to paint.. When I finish I'll show it to you and if you like you can use it in any of your work, as you like for free. You are right, Malati dasi. I beg your pardon. Somehow I got a wire crossed in my brain and thought you were talking about Nilamadhavadasji. I am getting old and my mind is weakening. Some days are better than others. But Madanmohan, too, is diksita, I think, through Gadadhar Pran Das and Lalita Prasad Thakur and Bhaktivinode. It would not surprise me to find out that Bhaktivedanta himself made that weird translation of Sri Rupa's verse. I used to work as an editor at BBT on his translation of the Bhagavata. I was supposed to just put in diacritics, but I could not help but spot other mistranslations or words broken down improperly. He got very sensitive sometimes. Accused me of always trying to change him. Perhaps he was right. I wanted him to be more learned and scholarly than he was and less of a slightly crooked businessman. But, he was just doing the best he could, I feel. I am sorry for the irritation I felt toward you, Malati. I admire you very much and your service to Mahaprabhu and Radha and Krsna. I look forward to seeing your painting when it is done. Please do share it with us. You are probably the longest-standing member of this forum and have contributed many great things. I hope you continue to for many years. Much of what I said about ad hominem I realized was true about what I was doing. To put someone down for being in IGM and to discount his or her argument right off the bat is also a form of ad hominem. They might have a valid point. It is what a person says or argues that should be examined not who they are. Krsna or the guru can speak to us through anyone. It is something I keep forgetting. राधे राधे ! |
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Post by meeno8 on Oct 20, 2020 9:56:25 GMT -6
Time for a food fight time out? Watch out, I am very accurate at lobbing gulab jamuns, and they are very syrupy and sticky.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 20, 2020 12:56:27 GMT -6
Time for a food fight time out? Watch out, I am very accurate at lobbing gulab jamuns, and they are very syrupy and sticky. So do you want a time out, or want to join in? Malati and I have made up (I hope). No more food fighting between us. You are welcome to start your own, however. If you throw a gulab jamun at me I will simply open my mouth and then probably die of diabetes, you murderer you!  |
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Post by meeno8 on Oct 20, 2020 13:47:36 GMT -6
It has to be prasad. No throwing of bhog. That's the rules. And you have to catch it with your mouth to avoid prasad-aparadh.
I murder many micro-organisms inadvertently all day long, as does every other human on the planet (ostensibly?).
"We hold these truths to be self-evident". I thought that applied to mantra-diksha in one of our genuine lineages as a prerequisite. To mistranslations of foreign language texts as well. Me llamo meeno8. One of those Spanish idioms, because there is no exact translation from the English, "My name is meeno8." From the point of view of the native speaker of Spanish, our version is actually the idiom.
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Post by meeno8 on Oct 20, 2020 14:05:27 GMT -6
Spanish: Como te llamas?
English: What is your name? [literal translation from the Spanish would be the idiomatic 'how are you called?']
Google translate is somewhat adequate, but does not catch that particular nuance between those 2 languages. In other words, whatever it generates needs to be double checked.
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 21, 2020 2:35:29 GMT -6
There is in the biography of Madhusudana Dasa Babaji of Surya kunda, some exception to the truths we hold as self evident.
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Post by madanmohandas on Oct 21, 2020 12:38:20 GMT -6
Spanish: Como te llamas? English: What is your name? [literal translation from the Spanish would be the idiomatic 'how are you called?'] Google translate is somewhat adequate, but does not catch that particular nuance between those 2 languages. In other words, whatever it generates needs to be double checked. How are you known? or how are you addressed? might be closer to your Spanish. It seems more polite to inquire how someone is addressed rather than the blunt, 'What's your name?'. It's like 'In what manner should I address you? your majesty, your honour, your magnificence? your divine grace?  Or one might inquire in a surly and churlish manner, 'What do they call you then?' or 'What art thou?' |
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Post by malati on Oct 27, 2020 14:30:44 GMT -6
Language is not just using a google translator. You have to "live" the language. That's why however long you go to a language school you will never be speaking or understanding the many shades of meaning or nuances of a language unless you live it, eg. physically living in the culture of the natives and interacting with them. It's like not getting the joke because you don't know the cultural experience of the native people, from which the joke arose.
Como te llamas, in the english equivalent is, pure and simple "What is your name?" If I will translate literally your "How are you known? or How are you addressed?, in Tagalog, for example, as I'm not that proficient in Spanish, it will be asked in a different way, because it could mean, what's your job title or the more nuanced, your civil status, like if you are married or single.
Maybe in the British language you can say those questions when you mean to ask their name, though I've never heard a British to muddy the circumstance if the person just wants to know the name of the other person.
I'm sure some of you can translate CV texts because other Indians have translated them before, then you use a software translator and then check out other work of other translator. We have to be humble enough to admit that. That's why I pointed out the words "bhajan kriya" in the quote in the OP. It just not mean doing bhajan, with your own effort. In our tradition it has to be instructed by a guru, otherwise it's just like pretending. I heard that from someone.
Anyone can philosophize not taking initiation from a guru and claim being a part of the CV lineage, however its very clear from the shastras (eg. guru a personification of Krishna) and the practice of the tradition, that to be part of the traditional CV line you have to have empowerment (shakti) in the form of initiation from a guru to jump start your connection to the line.
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Or one might inquire in a surly and churlish manner, 'What do they call you then?' or 'What art thou?'