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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Dec 26, 2019 19:51:55 GMT -6
As many of us are aware, there is quite a lot of people out there claiming to teach and/or represent Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings. I'm sure at any given time there is some sort of IGM class happening  What about actual, real Caitanya Vaishnava teaching/preaching? Yet it also seems somewhat of a dichotomy. For example, I would like to start some sort of podcast, website, and or regular phone call study/discussion. It seems that CV desperately needs some kind of public presence in order to develop, attract new people, and create a greater sanga. But sadly because I know I have many unresolved anarthas, would it be good for me to try to start something? Or would that just be watering the anarthas of name, fame, profit, adoration, distinction, self-importance, etc.? |
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Post by meeno8 on Dec 28, 2019 15:46:26 GMT -6
I think we have to just decide if we are bhajananandis or something else. If we are cultivating our own madhurya-rasa, where is the time to do anything else? Certainly the mahamantra has already been spread far and wide thanks in no small part to George Harrison and John Lennon, and ISKCON used George's name all the time to collect funds in airports (and he did not really appreciate that very much). George had more than one Indian guru, and was not exclusively supporting ISKCON, but he was chanting the mahamantra on his japa mala when he passed. Those who want to be 'missionaries' will find their place in IGM for that purpose, and granted that is not genuine CV. Getting the word out about genuine CV is being done in large part by Blazing Sapphire Press and its publications. Dr. Kapoor wrote a magnificent treatise on the basics, which should have been a standard text in ISKCON, but because it was not published by BBT, it was not condoned. Some day there may be genuine CV mandirs in the West, but Rupa wrote that we should not be building big temples. I am sure he had his reasons for saying that. To date it has been people that were in IGM or that had just hung around IGM centers, then went to various gurus in India for reprogramming and instruction. We can assume that trend will continue, and perhaps some wealthy patron like George will decide to establish some mission for our movement.
I know that may not really answer your question. I think it just depends on what you have in mind, Nila. Social media? Writing your story and getting Blazing Sapphire Press to publish that? And what exactly is your motivation in the first place? Nitai and I put up more than one website and established a non-profit (Temple of the Sacred Bower), but outside of Blazing Sapphire Press, nothing came of those entities.
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Dec 28, 2019 18:57:38 GMT -6
Thanks Ramdasji!
What I'm striving for in one way or another is to increase the CV sanga. We don't want a sanga like IGM, where there's always so much fighting and stress upon our differences and using sastra and the words of our acaryas to beat one another into submission to our particular individual understanding of things. Nor do we want continued permutations of apasiddhanta. None of all that garbage.
Rather, it would be fantastic for us in the CV community to develop and refine our tradition, modernizing it without departing from principles, but adjusting the details.
I think that Blazing Sapphire Press as well as any of the other websites need to be remodeled and modernized as well as advertised. I think that would bring a lot more traffic to them. Of course that costs money. I'd like to get up to speed with web design, but that's just one of many things I want to do and haven't had the time to get to.
I also think that it would be really great to begin/establish some kind of annual festival where all of us CV folks can get together. Maybe for Janmastami, Gaur Purnima, Kartik, or some other time of the year where we can focus on practicing our bhakti with one another. Daily kirtan, meditations (smaranam), prasad, japa, puja, etc.
This forum is a great place to develop a modernized sadacar practice or at least give a range of sadacar practice that spans from a more strict, traditional, conservative style to a more modernized one that again still fits the principles of sadacar.
And lastly, I think it would be great to establish a regular CV sanga phone call wherein we can either read a text and discuss or do questions and answers with a senior member such as Nitai Dasji. But obviously something moderated well so that we don't get off track and start talking about football or Trump or crap like that.
Things need to be put into place where there are more elements that can grow CV in the west. This also will help to support the stealing of Radha Krishna, bringing Them here. Strength in numbers, right? :-)
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Dec 28, 2019 21:12:18 GMT -6
Getting the word out about genuine CV is being done in large part by Blazing Sapphire Press and its publications. Dr. Kapoor wrote a magnificent treatise on the basics, which should have been a standard text in ISKCON, but because it was not published by BBT, it was not condoned. Radhe Radhe Ramdas-ji! Which book are you referring to by Dr. Kapoor? |
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Post by Īśvaradāsa on Dec 29, 2019 8:35:42 GMT -6
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Post by Ldd on Dec 31, 2019 11:27:43 GMT -6
When the guru initiates one, he gives Krishna. But if somehow one loses Krishna, then unnecessary prajalpa begins : talking discussing, canvassing, preaching - are all visible signs - and we live in an age where the mindset is - this is Krishna consciousness. As you close in one these sangas - it's all about promoting an agenda or personality figurehead - which is useless if one already has Krishna (from ones guru) and simply want to cultivate him.
What does a figurehead guru really need with thousands of useless disciples? Ram Krishna das Pandit did not have one disciple - which fits into the mood of Mahaprabhu himself. (This info about baba is from direct source ) The point is the canvassing spoils everything. It involves brutal competitiveness - which is offensive to bhakti. Hindu dharma or bhakti had never ever been imposed like this. Of course in this age of attention deficiency - it may have to be done on a small scale, but again what kind of disciples come off it?
Krishna comes via guru - that's it. Oneness with him, serving him, executing your practices as given by him/her - not picking up stuff here and there. Now some of the new figureheads are recruiting people as siksha disciples and using them to expand preaching. Not exactly in the footsteps of Ram Krishna baba or siddhas of his class.
In the name of this materialistic preaching, ranks have been joined with Vishawadhama - raving new messiah of Vrindavan a guy from Fiji so call disciple of Sai baba. Because to canvas one needs a means of attraction, rank and file and money. Everyone is cashing in on the prem bhakti of Mahaprabhu to the point of making it ugly.
Now to share some of the things I'm reading ( a sadhu must offer what he has experienced, as opposed to canvas ) And it addresses the ideas that Krishna is no longer in India. Yes I know India is horrible as hell. There are good places - where foreign tourism is absent. I've been very attracted to Udupi and seeing the footage of the priest who just died - Sri sri Vishvesh Tirtha Maharaja makes my faith come back in India and its religiosity. It's not Gaudiya - but who can really do proper Gaudiya these days? I am a striving Gaudiya but still looking for good living examples - and if there is none - I simply read.
Something from 11 canto of the Bhagawat. Krishna: "Devotion to me consists in beholding, touching, and worshipping my images - and those sadhus devoted to me - rendering bodily service like kneading their feet, extolling and bowing to them. (I think this refers to one's guru, puja is very recommended like this.) Developing reverence for hearing my stories, practicing contemplation of me. Offering all one's gains to me. Offering one's body to me. Narrating the stories of my advent. Recounting my deeds. Celebrating festivals connected with me. Conducting festivals in my temples with songs instruments dance and discourses. Visiting holy places in processions. Conducting special worship with flowers on annual festivals, Ekadasi, esp in the four rainy months. Initiating men into forms of Vedic and Tantrik worship. Enthusiasm in installing my images in specially constructed temples. Laying out gardens, orchards and pleasances. Keeping my temple tidy and clean, like a servant does, removing dust and plastering with cow dung. Washing the floor and decorating with ornamental designs (in a guileless way) Absence of pride and hypocrisy about the service one has done (not making it known). One should not use even the light of a lamp for oneself that is offered to me. One should not offer me a lamp that's already offered to me or any other god. One should offer me whatever he likes himself. Such an offering can yield immortality."
Over milleniums these Krishna practices have only been native to India. You can't implant it here or maybe even bring it back to India - in the way it was intended. At least not in cities or tourist centers. You can't modernize any of it either, I think adjustment is ok, in a way that does not conflict with the original idea.
But one can desire to get a better birth to practice, for it's only karmic desires that separates one from good sanga. In this birth one has to tolerate till karma of this body ends, then next life things will be much easier. That's the beauty with reincarnation.
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Post by Ldd on Dec 31, 2019 12:05:57 GMT -6
I'm saying it's better to be honest vaidhi bhakti - get your own sadhana and behavior together. Than a Radha das bhakta canvassing something he/she hasn't experienced. We can speak about prem - and bring people to the feet of a guru who might not even have the desired prem. Its cheating. Krishna's words is the truest and trustworthy sanga. Look there for it.
There are people coating agendas with chanting and katha. First uplift oneself then give sanga and preach I would advise. It may not happen in one birth. It's ok. Things take hundreds of years, even thousands to fructify. Krishna sanga is not a very easy thing to create or get.
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Post by meeno8 on Dec 31, 2019 15:15:47 GMT -6
Nice to see you back here adrs. I trust all is well with you and yours.
What makes vaidhi bhakti any more honest than raganuga bhakti? I don't get that. It appears to smack of IGM apasiddhanta, and I am certain that is not your actual intent.
Our doctrine comes directly from CC and the writings of Rupa, Sanatana, Jiva et al. We have all experienced the effects of individual chanting on malas and group chanting. Good kirtaniyas have power. I say we follow them if we need to follow anyone, rather than so-called 'preachers'. Whatever... We all have daily routines, whatever those may be.
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Post by Ldd on Dec 31, 2019 20:04:26 GMT -6
Nice to see you back here adrs. I trust all is well with you and yours. What makes vaidhi bhakti any more honest than raganuga bhakti? I don't get that. It appears to smack of IGM apasiddhanta, and I am certain that is not your actual intent. Our doctrine comes directly from CC and the writings of Rupa, Sanatana, Jiva et al. We have all experienced the effects of individual chanting on malas and group chanting. Good kirtaniyas have power. I say we follow them if we need to follow anyone, rather than so-called 'preachers'. Whatever... We all have daily routines, whatever those may be. |
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Post by Ldd on Dec 31, 2019 21:10:30 GMT -6
Raganuga is superior to vaidhi if it's real.
It's not just IGM that's responsible for looting of the Chaitanya image. There are traditionalists who have fallen to ambition, aparadh etc and gave it a bad name.
But I give IGM credit for staying true to Prabhupad etc. Or trying. (Even as I know they do not have "proper initiation")
Proper initiation does not guarantee anything. Only if people, westerners or Indians become seriously committed to guru seva, they will get raganuga.
I've seen in my mutt many unknown Baba's seemingly enjoying the Bliss of prem. They own nothing like good ascetics. No one is canvassing on their behalf and they don't seem to care for it either.
India is full of people like this. I think these are the real saints.
such people are everywhere in holy places
I never fail to see them
Grhastha too can achieve if practice is consistent and guru graces.
If one stays true one will get proper opportunity next life. Till then we have to contend with samskaras and wait.
I think serious commitment and test is important before one takes diksha. I'm listening now to Sri Vishvesh Tirtha.
He ran a school on Vedanta for over 60 yrs. And only gave vaishnava diksha after training disciples for fourteen years. That means they were in his gurukula.
He said he wanted to organise the birthday festival of Chaitanya and invite all vaishnavas.
There is hope for the future. Trust Krishna.
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Post by Ldd on Jan 1, 2020 7:54:23 GMT -6
Too much preaching is actually hurting the cause of Chaitanya-ism. It's feeding a snake. Snakes take nice goods and pretend I am the one who made it up. What's needed (and the only thing in my view) is to expose the non-initiation aspect of those parading as bonafide reps of Chaitanya and misleading society. Give the public a chance to know, they will be able to see logic, for logic is a real way of getting knowledge and checking things. We also have testimony.
I think this service will be very pleasing to Krishna. For some reason it has been held back. Its a matter of of social concern, Remember that we live in a land of free speech. No one will be jailed,(real)sadhus will not be offended.Social media will be the means, Utube also. It should not provide debate and argument for anyone's gratification.. Just flatly lay and spell out logic with names (of offenders) and references and all that we know. I've seen that as an upfront strategy, it really works.
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Jan 1, 2020 11:27:15 GMT -6
Radhe Radhe!
Many thanks Adrs for your posts! I do understand the negatives of preaching as you have mentioned and I agree with them. I understand that our spiritual progress is not limited to or dependent upon sanga, but sastra says that sanga does assist, no? I have asked various senior Vaishnavas about sanga and essentially they've said that the books are the best sanga. I get that. I guess I have some romantic idea of living by at least someone or some family of like-minded aspirants to Bhakti so that we can get together for kirtan, prasad, japa, etc. But maybe it's a pipe dream. I really don't want to hang with IGM folks, but sadly, they're everywhere. Where are all the CV folks???
Nor do I want to grow my ego and anarthas by trying to preach or get a following. I just want someone to do kirtan with. Maybe I'm being too narrow. Clearly there are wonderful people here on the symposium, some whom I've met in person. We can talk on the phone, send email, etc. I don't mean to minimize that. It would just be nice for there to be something more... a push for more personalism, more interaction. I don't know if I'm making sense. Is 'strength in numbers' a good thing or a fallacy? Gaura Haribol!
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Post by Īśvaradāsa on Jan 1, 2020 12:28:13 GMT -6
As many of us are aware, there is quite a lot of people out there claiming to teach and/or represent Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings. I'm sure at any given time there is some sort of IGM class happening What about actual, real Caitanya Vaishnava teaching/preaching? Yet it also seems somewhat of a dichotomy. For example, I would like to start some sort of podcast, website, and or regular phone call study/discussion. It seems that CV desperately needs some kind of public presence in order to develop, attract new people, and create a greater sanga. But sadly because I know I have many unresolved anarthas, would it be good for me to try to start something? Or would that just be watering the anarthas of name, fame, profit, adoration, distinction, self-importance, etc.? Along the lines of what Ramdas said, I think it all boils down to your motivations. Doing outreach in the form of forums and group calls for study and discussion sounds good for sanga development and seems fairly harmless in the context of your question (watering the anarthas...). Creating websites or podcasts might seem trickier in that sense, but again it depends on where your heart is. It could help connect you with likeminded people, some of whom might be close to you enough to have personal association. And I agree with you, I'd like to see more of a CV presence online. I got specially interested in your idea for a regular festival we could all attend to, maybe once or twice a year. That would be great. Anyway, for whatever's worth, I think that focusing on presenting CV is preferable, once people become familiar with it they'll be able to distinguish it from the other sub-groups by themselves and decide what to follow. I also feel that being mindful of historical discipline and accuracy (e.g., checking and quoting one's sources and references) could contribute in this sense, as it helps others do their own research and study. |
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Post by meeno8 on Jan 1, 2020 12:51:27 GMT -6
I forgot to mention the efforts of Srivatsa Goswami of Vrindanan who comes in a South Indian lineage of the CV tradition. He has an institute of higher learning (Sri Caitanya Prema Samsthanta at Jai Singh Ghera - www.gambhira.com/) and takes drama troupes from Braj Mandal to Europe and North America where he intiates people. He has been a good friend to me and my guru-bhais of the Nityanadana-parivara, providing rooms for us to stay in and the use of his portable dark room for my camera. His family publishes the work of the famous scholar that came out of Gaudiya Math, such as Ujjvala Nilamani, Puridas Pandit. Here is one point of view: The global society on this planet is made up of what the historians of religion call 'homo religiosus', as opposed to homo sapiens. So, putting sadhu-sanga into context, does it really make a difference if the sadhus are in the CV tradition or adherents of any other tradition among the Judeo-Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, American Native Church, et al? I personally have no problem feeling comfortable surrounded by people of all faiths, not just our tradition. And let us remember one thing on this topic: The great contributions that came out of ISKCON: Beautiful paintings, music recordings, architecture like the Krishna-Balaram mandir in Vrindavan, and yes the books. Despite some Vaishnava aparadha in some purports, they did provide a basic education of siddhanta (and apasiddanta, granted) for so many of us. I owe my knowledge and practice of chanting the mahamantra to that organization and its founder/acharya, who was kind to me when I requested to be able to resign my position as secretary to Akshayananda Swami to be a full time pujari at the temple in Vrindavan. |
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Post by adrs (lalita dd) on Jan 2, 2020 6:36:32 GMT -6
My observation is the public has not been exposed to all the sides of the equation and its destroyed their ability to recognize a vaishnava. So why would they listen to a preson who has nothing to show.
Eg. Pejawar swami did not know that Radhanath landed in India to hideaway from a crime, nor about the initiation problem, and he thinks Radhanath is like a brother saint /swami, and like this they are convincing all the big leaders and public.
We know that bhakti is simply an experience. It may or my not be preached, according to what Krishna wants. The public keep getting fooled by external accomplishments. And these scamps are very good pretending pure unalloyed devotion. They read the 'Lives of the Saints' and pretend it damn good. Plus with their publicity and websites, its very hard to help a sincere soul who does not have reference to the darker aspects.
You can appreciate positive conributions also. But there is no room for dishonesty in bhakti. What to speak of prem? Do they tell where they get their material? Ive learned a lot from them, but their preaching wasn't carried on by one leader only. Their followers do 99 percent of the work. Inspiration came from words of Krishna and chanting Naam which had been around for milleniums, but exchanged for material things in recent times. See things in the proper perspective please.
Personal sanga is very imp to help each other. We can message phone numbers, or email, for vaishnava are personal and sweet. There is no upper and lower like in caste conscious communities.
Back to seva and reading, I will share more shortly.
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