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Post by Ramdas on Mar 8, 2020 12:46:39 GMT -6
Here is another idea altogether: What if we instead wish for Natyaraj to simply dance his dance of cosmic annihilation, bringing the whole construct to complete dissolution, unwinding all the DNA and spinning down all the particles, thus releasing all the jivas to enter the nitya-lila in their siddha dehas?
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 8, 2020 20:03:00 GMT -6
Here is another idea altogether: What if we instead wish for Natyaraj to simply dance his dance of cosmic annihilation, bringing the whole construct to complete dissolution, unwinding all the DNA and spinning down all the particles, thus releasing all the jivas to enter the nitya-lila in their siddha dehas? Ramdasji, Radhe Radhe! Wouldn't cosmic dissolution mean that we just go back to the unmanifest state along with the world until we've reached prem bhakti? We'd all get sucked back up in to the pores of Maha Vishnu or go back to the unmanifest of Brahma's night until manifested again? OR maybe just get reincarnated to a universe that isn't unmanifested? I guess it depends on if you're talking partial or full dissolution. But my point is that the dance of dissolution doesn't mean we all go back to Goloka, right? Just means we go back to the unmanifest state. |
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Post by Ldd on Mar 8, 2020 20:54:57 GMT -6
Radhe Shyam! sorry for the absence. i will be back regularly now.. Happy Gaura Purnima all!! Now trying to recover from some Gaura Leela readings..
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Post by Ramdas on Mar 9, 2020 12:28:30 GMT -6
OK, but we can always think outside the box and go off script.
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Post by JD33 on May 31, 2020 17:35:51 GMT -6
Yes, I agree, that was just the impresión I got from reading his statements in the ‘Awakening’ section (p.xxxix), I'm looking forward to see what else he says. Actually, this reminded me of something in the Foreword by P. Tarkabhusan (p. xiv), about the distinctive traits of the eternal names of the lord: “All objects have names. Objects can be roughly divided into three categories: 1) dull matter, 2) living beings, and 3) the supreme lord. Among them the supreme lord’s name in not different from the supreme lord. The other names are different from the objects named [this is what I think Kanupriya Goswami is referring to]. There is something more to be said on this matter. The supreme lord has so many modern names that are not mentioned in the scriptures. All those names are different from the eternal or scripture-evidenced names in that a modern name brings about the goal of human life by causing the one named to be remembered. But, when repeating an eternal name there is no need for remembering. Whether one remembers the one named or not, uttering the name alone brings about the highest human objective. There is such power in the eternal names of the lord.
Apart from this, there are other distinguishing traits of the immortal names of the lord. Take for instance this: 1) when one repeats other names, that is, when one repeats any name apart from the eternal names of the lord, since the name is different from the one named, remembering the one named only brings about some desired worldly objective. Or, if, even though one repeats the names of others, one agrees with the philosophy that “all names are the names of the lord,” then it is possible to achieve the highest goal. Nevertheless, in that case, it is still by means of remembering the lord that one achieves the highest goal of human life. In contrast, by repeating the names of the lord himself, without depending on remembering the one named (i.e., the lord), one will be cultivating the highest goal of human life in the form of bhakti.”Radha and Krsna would be both eternal names in this sense, sharing the same nature rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī śaktir asmād
ekātmānāv api bhuvi purā deha-bhedaṁ gatau tau
caitanyākhyaṁ prakaṭam adhunā tad-dvayaṁ caikyam āptaṁ
rādhā-bhāva-dyuti-suvalitaṁ naumi kṛṣṇa-svarūpam
rādhā-kṛṣṇa eka ātmā, dui deha dhari’
anyonye vilase rasa āsvādana kari’(CC. Adi lila 4.55-56) I think this is why Prabhodananda Saraswati says: यज्जप्तं सकृदेव गोकुलपतेराकर्षकं तत्क्षणाद् यत्र प्रेमवतां समस्तपूरुषार्थेषु स्फुरेत् तुच्छता। यन्नामाङ्कितमन्त्रजापनपरः प्रीत्या स्वयं माधवः श्रीकृष्णोऽपि तदद्भुतं स्फुरतु मे राधेति वर्णद्वयम्॥ yaj japtaṁ sakṛd eva gokula-pater ākarṣakaṁ tat-kṣaṇād yatra premavatāṁ samasta-pūruṣārtheṣu sphuret tucchatā | yan-nāmāṅkita-mantra-jāpana-paraḥ prītyā svayaṁ mādhavaḥ śrī-kṛṣṇo’pi tad adbhutaṁ sphuratu me rādheti varṇa-dvayam || May these two letters of Radha's wondrous name
become manifest for me:
This name, which on being muttered
immediately attracts the Lord of Gokula,
which would make all the goals of human life
seem as nothing to the loving premika,
and the mantra composed of which name
Krishna Madhava himself
is dedicated to chanting with love.कालिन्दीतटकुञ्जमन्दिरगतो योगीन्द्रवद्यत्पद ज्योतिर्ध्यानपरः सदा जपति यां प्रेमाश्रुपूर्णो हरिः। केनाप्यद्भुतमुल्लसद्रतिरसानन्देन सम्मोहितः सा राधेति सदा हृदि स्फुरतु मे विद्या परा द्व्यक्षरा॥ kālindī-taṭa-kuñja-mandira-gato yogīndravad yat-pada- jyotir-dhyāna-paraḥ sadā japati yāṁ premāśru-pūrṇo hariḥ | kenāpy adbhutam ullasad-rati-rasānandena sammohitaḥ sā rādheti sadā hṛdi sphuratu me vidyā parā dvy-akṣarā || Hari goes to the forest bower abode by the Yamuna's banks,
and there, like a great yogi with eyes full of tears,
devotedly meditating on the light from her lotus feet,
enchanted by some amazing excited joy of erotic flavors,
he constantly chants that two-syllable mantra rā-dhā.
May those two syllables manifest always in my heart.देवानाम् अथ भक्तमुक्तसुहृदाम् अत्यन्तदूरं च यत् प्रेमानन्दरसं महासुखकरं चोच्चारितं प्रेमतः। प्रेम्णाकर्णयते जपत्यथ मुदा गायत्यथालिष्व् अयं जल्पत्यश्रुमुखो हरिस्तदमृतं राधेति मे जीवनम्॥ devānām atha bhakta-mukta-suhṛdām atyanta-dūraṁ ca yat premānanda-rasaṁ mahā-sukha-karaṁ coccāritaṁ premataḥ | premṇākarṇayate japaty atha mudā gāyaty athāliṣv ayaṁ jalpaty aśru-mukho haris tad amṛtaṁ rādheti me jīvanam || This name that is so far from the experience of the gods,
[Vaikuntha] devotees, liberated souls and Krishna's friends.
This name, which upon being chanted with love,
confers the ultimate joy of tasting the bliss of prema.
It is this name that Hari listens to lovingly,
sometimes murmurs, sometimes joyfully sings aloud,
and chatters incessantly among Radha's sakhis,
his face covered with tears.The nectar of Radha's name is my life.(RRSN 95-97, trans. by Jagadananda Das) Aside from this, another thing I thought about was what Jiva Goswami says: “Yet, even a person who is so resolved needs to chant specific names of Bhagavān that nourish his or her particular devotional mood. By singing the names of Bhagavān that are dear to him [that are in accordance with his or her specific devotional mood], he or she acquires deep love for Bhagavān (anurāga).
Follow that alone does the devotee's heart melt, and this then gives rise to a variety of different corresponding emotions, exhibited externally in the form of laughter, tears and so on”(Bhakti Sandarbha, Anu. 263, trans. by Jagadananda Das) Mani Babu expands on this last point, quoting Visvanatha, who recommends the kirtana of the names that fit one's own type of bhakti, including those of Gaura and Radha for those following in the madhurya path ( Nectar of the Holy Name, Blazing Saphire Press 2005, chapter 1, p.8) Thanks, Ed, for all these lovely quotations. Even if the question is not quite resolved, reading through the citations you have presented is uplifting and bhakti-engendering. I have looked ahead in Kanupriya's Nama-cintamani and yet have not located where he discusses the status of Radha's name. Hopefully, it is there somewhere. I am mostly focusing on the first chapter of the book where Goswamiji sets the ground rules for the rest of the volume. I will be posting my translation of that chapter soon. Sadly, none of the texts you have cited say clearly that Radha is her name in the same way that Krsna is his. Krsna's tears at repeating Radha's name could be the result of remembering her, smarana, and/or the strong longing for someone who is not personally present, i.e., vipralambha or viraha. That is the most powerful emotion, the deepest feeling of love. I have often wondered if the belief that we will one day be with Krsna is a far too facile understanding of what lies ahead for us. The idea of serving him and Radha in a kunja for eternity as manjaris is a story made up by kind-hearted Vaisnavas to ease us into a deeper truth that involves an eternal condition of love-in-separation for Krsna. We are guided to a condition of deep love for Krsna in which his presence or absence becomes irrelevant. We reach a state of true selflessness that goes beyond even wanting only to give him pleasure, for in wanting to give him pleasure one still thinks of oneself as an agent, a doer, an ego, and in giving pleasure to someone it is impossible not to burden that person with an obligation to you. The roots of selfishness run deep. Vipralambha may be the only cure. Thank you Ed for such beautiful quotes - this is a part of Bhajan - reading these rasik texts. and Thank you N. Dassji again for guiding and reminding us to attain to self-less-ness - which helps us further on the path. |
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Post by JD33 on May 31, 2020 17:38:36 GMT -6
Here is another idea altogether: What if we instead wish for Natyaraj to simply dance his dance of cosmic annihilation, bringing the whole construct to complete dissolution, unwinding all the DNA and spinning down all the particles, thus releasing all the jivas to enter the nitya-lila in their siddha dehas? Ramdasji, Radhe Radhe! Wouldn't cosmic dissolution mean that we just go back to the unmanifest state along with the world until we've reached prem bhakti? We'd all get sucked back up in to the pores of Maha Vishnu or go back to the unmanifest of Brahma's night until manifested again? OR maybe just get reincarnated to a universe that isn't unmanifested? I guess it depends on if you're talking partial or full dissolution. But my point is that the dance of dissolution doesn't mean we all go back to Goloka, right? Just means we go back to the unmanifest state. This is the mis-understanding of IGM I think - that we come from Goloka Vrindavan and so we go back there. The CV tradition does not say this. Therefore with a disolution we go back to the unmanifest and try again - we hope - later. |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Jun 1, 2020 8:11:18 GMT -6
Ramdasji, Radhe Radhe! Wouldn't cosmic dissolution mean that we just go back to the unmanifest state along with the world until we've reached prem bhakti? We'd all get sucked back up in to the pores of Maha Vishnu or go back to the unmanifest of Brahma's night until manifested again? OR maybe just get reincarnated to a universe that isn't unmanifested? I guess it depends on if you're talking partial or full dissolution. But my point is that the dance of dissolution doesn't mean we all go back to Goloka, right? Just means we go back to the unmanifest state. This is the mis-understanding of IGM I think - that we come from Goloka Vrindavan and so we go back there. The CV tradition does not say this. Therefore with a disolution we go back to the unmanifest and try again - we hope - later. Dear Jagadish Dada, I think you've misunderstood me here. I didn't say, nor was I implying that we "go back there". I don't believe the IGM perspective of the 'fall vadis' from IGM. I was saying what you said, "with a dissolution we go back to the unmanifest and try again." While I spent some time in IGM, I've been doing my best to shed the misunderstandings implanted by IGM. I don't think I should be lumped in with IGM folks as one of your other posts implied, but maybe I'm wrong. What do you think? Thanks! Radhe Radhe! |
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Post by JD33 on Jun 1, 2020 21:57:04 GMT -6
Hi Nilamadhav,
You are not IGM - but you have come from them, you are ex-IGM. In the past you were attracted to this cult enough to join it, and somehow at that time you accepted them as a true spirituality or spiritual path. And then you went through a sort of brain-washing, etc which included foreign elements to Sanatan Dharmic / Vaisnav Dharmic practice - one example proselytization. Proselytization is not a practice of CV. Another might be humility. IGM does not practice humility as far as I know. Being offensive is something ingrained in IGM.
When we are brought up spiritually in such an environment it is hard to see that we still carry these things with us and still think it is spiritual or that they are spiritual qualities for CV. For some types of Christianity maybe.
I sincerely wish you Nila (and others here), who show an avid interest in CV Tradition, a fulfillment of your wishes of attaining Radha-Govinda Prem Bhakti. It is not easy and a little guidance can go a long way on such a specialized path.
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Post by madanmohandas on Jun 3, 2020 17:40:40 GMT -6
Why should anyone be bothered about all that sectarian business? Books are available for any literate individual. I think all these party rivalries and and loyalties should just be allowed fade away. I came through the Hare Krishna movement to Gaudiya Mission to Gadadhar pran das to finally reveling in the obscurity of a non aligned Bhagavatam reader, and adherent of Vaisnava doctrines which like me best. I hope that is not too disagreeable. I am very aware that such an independent attitude is generally disapproved of, and I've heard the usual objections. Still, it just seems to me too trivial to be overly concerned about divergent sects and opinions. Each according appetite and capacity I suppose.
Although, having said that, I do like to launch into some anti Christian invective.
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Post by JD33 on Jun 7, 2020 14:50:19 GMT -6
Nitai-Gaur, Radhey-Shyam; Hare Krsna, Hare Ram. Jai Nitai !
I think it depends on in what way a person loves Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Gosvamins of Vraja. The difference between eating plastic strawberries and organic home-grown strawberries ?
Either way one loves Mahaprabhu.
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Post by meeno8 on Jun 11, 2020 13:23:17 GMT -6
At least links are here for all the details on the philosophical differences between IGM and CV, so that those who left IGM can take advantage of that information. I suspect there are many, many people out there who just abandoned IGM with nowhere to turn and no access to CV, unless they somehow were able to find their way to the late mahant of Radhakund, Pandit Ananta Das Babaji or other CV gurus. I do not believe they are all bad people, and mostly sincere adherents to the sadhana they were taught to follow: In the case of Gaudiya Math 64 rounds of japa a day and in the case of ISKCON only 16 rounds a day. That has to count for something, despite their being misled about so many things. And they had the good sense to get out as opposed to those who have not yet done so. They do get instruction in the offenses while chanting the mahamantra, hopefully avoiding those at all costs. Perhaps some more than others, which I suspect is the case, unfortunately.
There I go again: Pointing out the obvious. Just in case this is not already obvious to anyone reading posts here.
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Post by JD33 on Jun 11, 2020 21:20:32 GMT -6
Nitai-Gaur, Radhey-Shyam; Hare Krsna, Hare Ram.
It is amazing that Western people became attracted to Radha-Krsna like that and many people joined Iskon and were fooled into a Christian-type system of contempt towards others, greed for conversion and financial gain: including the so called 'spiritual right' to lie, cheat and steal to get money for the organization, etc.
So it is righting the worldly attitudes and behavior, the mis-information, and life-style, but also the importance of Diksa that is not taken sincerely enough....??
Obviously it is a mix of things. I look at it karmically - those who have been duped into joining a cult - seem to keep being drawn to other cults and have not ever entered into the original RK Bhakti Prem stream of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. For what reasons.... I wish I knew.
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Post by meeno8 on Jun 12, 2020 16:49:48 GMT -6
People in my circle of friends pretty much took their lead from Beatle George Harrison to take up chanting and then join ISKCON.
I think most people here already know about that, even if they were not among our generation.
George did not like ISKCON using his name to collect money in airports.
You know about the institutional problems, JD33, having heard about them, and maybe had some first hand experience. Pandit Nitaidas Ji and I were there for at least a few years (he was there longer) and saw what you are talking about first hand, which was certainly a contributing factor in our resigning from our positions. It took some time to forget about the negative aspects of the overall experience and once and for all put it behind me.
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Post by JD33 on Jun 18, 2020 12:22:46 GMT -6
Nitai-Gaur, Radhey-Shyam; Hare Krsna, Hare Ram.
Very interesting about being influienced by Harrison about that. He later joined other Sanatan Dharma Tradition(s). It sounds like you were doing something another practice before you joined Isk.
Caitanya's Tradition is a wonderful, deeply experiential Tradition. There are examples of Sadhu Practioners of the Tradition who after deep Prem-Bhakti-moy acintya Realization experience from Darshan, etc give up all their books. There is a reason for this. LOL.... but such gems are for those clear enough to invest time into the various practices, observances, etc etc. Diksa being the start of actual connection. Do as much Holy Nam Japam, Kirtan, readings, etc to advance/ purify, etc. to get more "ready" for Holy Diksa.
If one does want Radha-Govinda Prem Bhakti seva there are several other genuine Rasik Traditions one can enter into. I had a client in Europe who received Diksa in the Nimbarka Tradition and was very happy with that. I have a few Sadhu friends in Vraja of that beautiful Tradtion.
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Post by meeno8 on Jun 19, 2020 11:21:00 GMT -6
What does 'Holy Diksa' refer to exactly?
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