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Post by Ramdas on Feb 21, 2020 17:54:23 GMT -6
So, let me get this straight: You were asked if you wanted diksha at our Baba's mandir? I think you should consider yourself extremely fortunate, since some Westerners that approached our Baba for diksha were rejected. I think you should be kicking yourself for not taking advantage of the opportunity. Any of us could die at any time, and being initiated in a valid lineage means then you have passage on the boat to sail beyond the vast ocean of samsara.
So, if that is your inclination: To keep looking around for a diksha guru. Well, that is your business, but is that really wise, bro?
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Post by Ramdas on Feb 21, 2020 18:16:36 GMT -6
Re: Teachers in general
I had the great fortune of having a flute teacher that was with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, because we were both from the same home town, that was a student of the late Jean Pierre Rampal, and he was considered by many to be the best flautist on the planet while he was alive.
When I took golf lessons, I took them from a PGA member that was certified as an instructor.
I guess my point is when settling on a guru, having the qualifications of that person as the main criterion as opposed to some warm and fuzzy about them. Certainly if they are too rough around the edges, then that may not work out in the long run.
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Feb 21, 2020 18:39:58 GMT -6
So, let me get this straight: You were asked if you wanted diksha at our Baba's mandir? I think you should consider yourself extremely fortunate, since some Westerners that approached our Baba for diksha were rejected. I think you should be kicking yourself for not taking advantage of the opportunity. Any of us could die at any time, and being initiated in a valid lineage means then you have passage on the boat to sail beyond the vast ocean of samsara. So, if that is your inclination: To keep looking around for a diksha guru. Well, that is your business, but is that really wise, bro? Thank you Ramdasji. Certainly if I could or was offered diksa from Siddha Tinkodi Baba there would be no question. I would absolutely take advantage of that. But as it turns out, I believe the mahant there, Vrindavan Candra Goswami, wasn't there. Nitai Dasji said that he is the grandson of your gurudev. When I was there, there was one very young devotee along with another older man. I'm guessing they were both the pujaris at the time. So when they asked if I wanted diksa I don't even know who would have been giving diksa if I said yes. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that some are anxious to get western disciples because it means cash. I've heard that the money motive has been present in some of the other more popular diksa gurus of various places. I would feel pretty devastated if I received diksa only to later find out that my gurudev accepted me with the aim of getting a bit more dough in his or her pocket. I also know some younger babas (as mentioned prior) who might give me diksa. But again, a younger baba reminds me too much of the young ISKCON sannyasis. And we all know what has happened and usually happens to a younger vairagi. And again, I would be pretty upset if my younger baba gurudev all of a sudden decided he wanted to be a grihastha. Of course, I don't think that would go well for one in India, but I could be wrong. What do you think? |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Feb 21, 2020 18:58:45 GMT -6
Here is a photo of the sadhus I met at your Gurudeva's mandir. The younger one's name is Krishnakantha Subudhi. I don't remember getting the name of the older one. They only spoke Bengali and I was using my Google Translate app to talk with them. It was the younger one asking if I wanted diksa if I recall correctly. Very nice devotees. They gave me prasad and also went and found copies of that biography of Sri Tinkodi Baba, which he is holding in his hand. It's not the lengthy biography I was looking for, but maybe next time I'll be able to find that one. Jai Nitia! Jai Gaur!  |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Feb 21, 2020 19:07:33 GMT -6
The major flaw in my sadhana is inattentiveness. Sometimes I will finish all my mantras and not be sure that I have really done them all. Did I skip the Gadadhara mantra? Did I really do all of the Nityananda mantra? I have caught myself doing two repetitions of the Guru mantra and suddenly switching to the Guru gayatri. So one thing is to become fully attentive to the mantra as one recites them in one's mind. If your mind wanders, pull it back. Buddhist vipassana is a good practice for this. I learned this in Boulder at a weekend session of sitting focusing only on the breath. When the mind wanders, touch the thought and let it go. Bring the mind back to the mantra. Gradually I find that I am able to focus much better on the mantra and be sure be the end that I have been aware of every syllable. Set aside time for Harinama japa, time for mantra jap, and time for kirtan. Those are the three pillars of sadhana for us and we can throw in some reading. Have you read the Tattva-sandarbha lately, or one of Rupa's plays or the Bhaktirasamrta-sindhu or Brhad-bhagavatamrta? Here I am approaching the end of my life and there are so many CV classics that I have not read. My guess would be that I have read 5% of our CV works. How can one pass into the great unknown not having read most of these delights? It is like living in a sweet shop and not eating any of the sweets. You can read Bengali and I suppose some Sanskrit. Read bro read! Read for your own edification, no need to translate, but share your insights as they arise with the rest of us. Another great post Dada. Thank you! This brought up a question in my mind. If we were to make a list of the major granthas for us in the CV tradition and then list them perhaps in a way of progressive study, what might that list look like? Personally I've read a 'summary study' of Tattva Sandarbha, which was so so. The source definitely so so at best. But I'd like to get into the sandarbhas. I have all of what Satyanarayan has done thus far and I'd like to find the English Tattva Sandarbha done by Stuart Elkman. So many books and so little time! I've also been chipping away at some of the more smarana aimed texts. Up next in that department is Sri Krishna Bhavanamrita. Jai Sri Radhe! |
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Post by Īśvaradāsa on Feb 21, 2020 22:56:06 GMT -6
Yes, I agree, that was just the impresión I got from reading his statements in the ‘Awakening’ section (p.xxxix), I'm looking forward to see what else he says. Actually, this reminded me of something in the Foreword by P. Tarkabhusan (p. xiv), about the distinctive traits of the eternal names of the lord: “All objects have names. Objects can be roughly divided into three categories: 1) dull matter, 2) living beings, and 3) the supreme lord. Among them the supreme lord’s name in not different from the supreme lord. The other names are different from the objects named [this is what I think Kanupriya Goswami is referring to]. There is something more to be said on this matter. The supreme lord has so many modern names that are not mentioned in the scriptures. All those names are different from the eternal or scripture-evidenced names in that a modern name brings about the goal of human life by causing the one named to be remembered. But, when repeating an eternal name there is no need for remembering. Whether one remembers the one named or not, uttering the name alone brings about the highest human objective. There is such power in the eternal names of the lord.
Apart from this, there are other distinguishing traits of the immortal names of the lord. Take for instance this: 1) when one repeats other names, that is, when one repeats any name apart from the eternal names of the lord, since the name is different from the one named, remembering the one named only brings about some desired worldly objective. Or, if, even though one repeats the names of others, one agrees with the philosophy that “all names are the names of the lord,” then it is possible to achieve the highest goal. Nevertheless, in that case, it is still by means of remembering the lord that one achieves the highest goal of human life. In contrast, by repeating the names of the lord himself, without depending on remembering the one named (i.e., the lord), one will be cultivating the highest goal of human life in the form of bhakti.”Radha and Krsna would be both eternal names in this sense, sharing the same nature rādhā kṛṣṇa-praṇaya-vikṛtir hlādinī śaktir asmād
ekātmānāv api bhuvi purā deha-bhedaṁ gatau tau
caitanyākhyaṁ prakaṭam adhunā tad-dvayaṁ caikyam āptaṁ
rādhā-bhāva-dyuti-suvalitaṁ naumi kṛṣṇa-svarūpam
rādhā-kṛṣṇa eka ātmā, dui deha dhari’
anyonye vilase rasa āsvādana kari’(CC. Adi lila 4.55-56) I think this is why Prabhodananda Saraswati says: यज्जप्तं सकृदेव गोकुलपतेराकर्षकं तत्क्षणाद् यत्र प्रेमवतां समस्तपूरुषार्थेषु स्फुरेत् तुच्छता। यन्नामाङ्कितमन्त्रजापनपरः प्रीत्या स्वयं माधवः श्रीकृष्णोऽपि तदद्भुतं स्फुरतु मे राधेति वर्णद्वयम्॥ yaj japtaṁ sakṛd eva gokula-pater ākarṣakaṁ tat-kṣaṇād yatra premavatāṁ samasta-pūruṣārtheṣu sphuret tucchatā | yan-nāmāṅkita-mantra-jāpana-paraḥ prītyā svayaṁ mādhavaḥ śrī-kṛṣṇo’pi tad adbhutaṁ sphuratu me rādheti varṇa-dvayam || May these two letters of Radha's wondrous name
become manifest for me:
This name, which on being muttered
immediately attracts the Lord of Gokula,
which would make all the goals of human life
seem as nothing to the loving premika,
and the mantra composed of which name
Krishna Madhava himself
is dedicated to chanting with love.कालिन्दीतटकुञ्जमन्दिरगतो योगीन्द्रवद्यत्पद ज्योतिर्ध्यानपरः सदा जपति यां प्रेमाश्रुपूर्णो हरिः। केनाप्यद्भुतमुल्लसद्रतिरसानन्देन सम्मोहितः सा राधेति सदा हृदि स्फुरतु मे विद्या परा द्व्यक्षरा॥ kālindī-taṭa-kuñja-mandira-gato yogīndravad yat-pada- jyotir-dhyāna-paraḥ sadā japati yāṁ premāśru-pūrṇo hariḥ | kenāpy adbhutam ullasad-rati-rasānandena sammohitaḥ sā rādheti sadā hṛdi sphuratu me vidyā parā dvy-akṣarā || Hari goes to the forest bower abode by the Yamuna's banks,
and there, like a great yogi with eyes full of tears,
devotedly meditating on the light from her lotus feet,
enchanted by some amazing excited joy of erotic flavors,
he constantly chants that two-syllable mantra rā-dhā.
May those two syllables manifest always in my heart.देवानाम् अथ भक्तमुक्तसुहृदाम् अत्यन्तदूरं च यत् प्रेमानन्दरसं महासुखकरं चोच्चारितं प्रेमतः। प्रेम्णाकर्णयते जपत्यथ मुदा गायत्यथालिष्व् अयं जल्पत्यश्रुमुखो हरिस्तदमृतं राधेति मे जीवनम्॥ devānām atha bhakta-mukta-suhṛdām atyanta-dūraṁ ca yat premānanda-rasaṁ mahā-sukha-karaṁ coccāritaṁ premataḥ | premṇākarṇayate japaty atha mudā gāyaty athāliṣv ayaṁ jalpaty aśru-mukho haris tad amṛtaṁ rādheti me jīvanam || This name that is so far from the experience of the gods,
[Vaikuntha] devotees, liberated souls and Krishna's friends.
This name, which upon being chanted with love,
confers the ultimate joy of tasting the bliss of prema.
It is this name that Hari listens to lovingly,
sometimes murmurs, sometimes joyfully sings aloud,
and chatters incessantly among Radha's sakhis,
his face covered with tears.The nectar of Radha's name is my life.(RRSN 95-97, trans. by Jagadananda Das) Aside from this, another thing I thought about was what Jiva Goswami says: “Yet, even a person who is so resolved needs to chant specific names of Bhagavān that nourish his or her particular devotional mood. By singing the names of Bhagavān that are dear to him [that are in accordance with his or her specific devotional mood], he or she acquires deep love for Bhagavān (anurāga).
Follow that alone does the devotee's heart melt, and this then gives rise to a variety of different corresponding emotions, exhibited externally in the form of laughter, tears and so on”(Bhakti Sandarbha, Anu. 263, trans. by Jagadananda Das) Mani Babu expands on this last point, quoting Visvanatha, who recommends the kirtana of the names that fit one's own type of bhakti, including those of Gaura and Radha for those following in the madhurya path ( Nectar of the Holy Name, Blazing Saphire Press 2005, chapter 1, p.8) Thanks, Ed, for all these lovely quotations. Even if the question is not quite resolved, reading through the citations you have presented is uplifting and bhakti-engendering. I have looked ahead in Kanupriya's Nama-cintamani and yet have not located where he discusses the status of Radha's name. Hopefully, it is there somewhere. I am mostly focusing on the first chapter of the book where Goswamiji sets the ground rules for the rest of the volume. I will be posting my translation of that chapter soon. Sadly, none of the texts you have cited say clearly that Radha is her name in the same way that Krsna is his. Krsna's tears at repeating Radha's name could be the result of remembering her, smarana, and/or the strong longing for someone who is not personally present, i.e., vipralambha or viraha. That is the most powerful emotion, the deepest feeling of love. I have often wondered if the belief that we will one day be with Krsna is a far too facile understanding of what lies ahead for us. The idea of serving him and Radha in a kunja for eternity as manjaris is a story made up by kind-hearted Vaisnavas to ease us into a deeper truth that involves an eternal condition of love-in-separation for Krsna. We are guided to a condition of deep love for Krsna in which his presence or absence becomes irrelevant. We reach a state of true selflessness that goes beyond even wanting only to give him pleasure, for in wanting to give him pleasure one still thinks of oneself as an agent, a doer, an ego, and in giving pleasure to someone it is impossible not to burden that person with an obligation to you. The roots of selfishness run deep. Vipralambha may be the only cure. Thanks, Nitai, I’m glad you also found them uplifting, I thought these were very endearing as well. Yes, the question is not settled, I’m looking forward to reading Prabhupada Kanupriya Goswami’s elaborations, I’m following that thread for updates, as with Siddha Baba’s book. For a while now I’ve been reciting daily his Twelve Names of Nityananda. I appreciate your insights on that last part of your post, ive wonder about this thinking about Gambhira or that final verse of the siksastaka (or the situation in the BhP for that matter), and about Rupa’s dramas and how those reflect on the inner world and desires of Mahaprabhu. Though wondering about this might be pointless for me, it can’t be helped. |
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Post by Īśvaradāsa on Feb 22, 2020 0:10:01 GMT -6
So, let me get this straight: You were asked if you wanted diksha at our Baba's mandir? I think you should consider yourself extremely fortunate, since some Westerners that approached our Baba for diksha were rejected. I think you should be kicking yourself for not taking advantage of the opportunity. Any of us could die at any time, and being initiated in a valid lineage means then you have passage on the boat to sail beyond the vast ocean of samsara. So, if that is your inclination: To keep looking around for a diksha guru. Well, that is your business, but is that really wise, bro? Thank you Ramdasji. Certainly if I could or was offered diksa from Siddha Tinkodi Baba there would be no question. I would absolutely take advantage of that. But as it turns out, I believe the mahant there, Vrindavan Candra Goswami, wasn't there. Nitai Dasji said that he is the grandson of your gurudev. When I was there, there was one very young devotee along with another older man. I'm guessing they were both the pujaris at the time. So when they asked if I wanted diksa I don't even know who would have been giving diksa if I said yes. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that some are anxious to get western disciples because it means cash. I've heard that the money motive has been present in some of the other more popular diksa gurus of various places. I would feel pretty devastated if I received diksa only to later find out that my gurudev accepted me with the aim of getting a bit more dough in his or her pocket. I also know some younger babas (as mentioned prior) who might give me diksa. But again, a younger baba reminds me too much of the young ISKCON sannyasis. And we all know what has happened and usually happens to a younger vairagi. And again, I would be pretty upset if my younger baba gurudev all of a sudden decided he wanted to be a grihastha. Of course, I don't think that would go well for one in India, but I could be wrong. What do you think? i was thinking about this, and maybe I’m wrong, Nila, but could it be that their offering diksa doesn’t imply “instant” diksa, perhaps they’re assessing your intentions at coming there and once they understand this they’ll guide you into becoming familiar with a Guru in due course of time? On the other hand, perhaps age is not always an indicator of wisdom, think of Kanu Thakur, Kavi Karnapura or Raghunandan Thakur (or Prahlad and Sukadev) It might be that some of those younger Babas have already performed a ton of bhajan in this life or past lives in the company of sincere and advanced sadhus and are now reaping those rewards, who knows? It’s hard to tell without getting to know them more closely. Anyway, this doesn’t matter if you feel no inspiration from them, and I don’t mean to diminish the importance of having a relationship with a Guru figure that understands you both from the material and spiritual perspective from experience, and a closeness in age or having someone more advanced in age no doubt could be more beneficial in that sense. One last note, Vrindavancandra Goswami was Baba’s son. His grandson is Navadvipcandra Goswami, who is probably the current Mahanta, but it did made me curious about Vrindavancandra Goswami and if he ever wrote anything? Maybe that larger book on Baba Tinkudi Goswami that you mentioned? |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Feb 22, 2020 7:28:59 GMT -6
i was thinking about this, and maybe I’m wrong, Nila, but could it be that their offering diksa doesn’t imply “instant” diksa, perhaps they’re assessing your intentions at coming there and once they understand this they’ll guide you into becoming familiar with a Guru in due course of time? On the other hand, perhaps age is not always an indicator of wisdom, think of Kanu Thakur, Kavi Karnapura or Raghunandan Thakur (or Prahlad and Sukadev) It might be that some of those younger Babas have already performed a ton of bhajan in this life or past lives in the company of sincere and advanced sadhus and are now reaping those rewards, who knows? It’s hard to tell without getting to know them more closely. Anyway, this doesn’t matter if you feel no inspiration from them, and I don’t mean to diminish the importance of having a relationship with a Guru figure that understands you both from the material and spiritual perspective from experience, and a closeness in age or having someone more advanced in age no doubt could be more beneficial in that sense. One last note, Vrindavancandra Goswami was Baba’s son. His grandson is Navadvipcandra Goswami, who is probably the current Mahanta, but it did made me curious about Vrindavancandra Goswami and if he ever wrote anything? Maybe that larger book on Baba Tinkudi Goswami that you mentioned? Radhe Radhe Eduardo-ji! Thanks for the post! Most certainly I'm prone to misunderstanding things. And I'm probably overly cautious due to being burned by IGM and majorly skeptical because of the 99% failure rate of their so-called sadhus. I guess I tend to trust my intuition. As has been described in this thread some, not all Indians have the purest motives. And of course neither does anyone else. It goes back to our discussion of giving the benefit of the doubt. We should fluff out that topic some more. Giving the benefit of the doubt... With Satyanarayan specifically (as that was what brought up that topic), I've been provided more information on him that makes me more doubtful about him. I appreciate his vast learning of course, but as we know even the devil can quote scripture. I'm absolutely not saying he's a devil. Just making the point that even if one is a great scholar of bhakti texts, that doesn't make one holy or advanced. Just means you're smart. You're also correct that the current mahant is Navadvipcandra Goswami, not Vrindavancandra Goswami as I had written. Thanks for pointing that out. I do hope to meet Navadvipcandra Goswami soon. We'll see what is in store for me on the next trip to Navadvip. And lastly about the 'larger' biography, this text was mentioned to me by Nitai dasji and Jagadish Dasji. They said that it was written by one lady disciple of Tinkodi Baba if I recall correctly. We're just not certain if it was ever published. I'll have to inquire about it again. I'm not sure who wrote the small biography that I found, which the younger sadhu is holding in the photo. |
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Post by Ldd on Feb 22, 2020 7:46:34 GMT -6
I don't think one should feel defeated if he hasn't received diksha so far. There is adhikar to receive Krishna Prem. One can continue to build adhikar nicely - maybe a lifetime or two  I don't condemn people who are trying to reach there. That's my thinking on this. I'm saying one must be prepared to surrender to Guru/Krishna and receive the treasure. For brahmachari, the payback is lifelong dedication to guru seva as we have seen in India. For householder he renders family and wealth. (if he is surrendered it's possible) One will not become an animal if he hasn't yet received diksha but chanting of Hari's name and sincerity is present. That statement is a kind of pressure or warning - if you don't do it, bad things will happen. (for those who are very sinful yes) Opportunity will be given later on for those who are trying to chant Hari's names nicely, or giving some service. However a diksha devotee who rebels against a good guru will not get a chance in the future. That's why caution and preparation is req'd. And --if guru turns out to be bad, disciple can always leave and chose another (he will not lose or fall down for doing so) But he must not stick out with a bad guru. (we tend to undermine the rules and do the wrong things) It takes time, contemplation sincerity to situate - no desperation and pressure. Lastly, to know if a guru has attained divine prema or not - only Krishna knows, we can't judge and potentially make offence. We must depend on Krishna (within) who will act as the final guide and take it from there. |
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Post by Ldd on Feb 22, 2020 8:12:15 GMT -6
The two real causes of problems :
1. Sticking with a a bad guru (ignorance - blind faithfulness even when knowing there is problem. And you only attain what he has attained, not more)
2. Not surrendering to the good guru ( guru - aparadh - no faithfulness) Not following his instructions and sastra
People have been initiated for ages but this is the real problem of spirituality in India.
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Post by Ramdas on Feb 22, 2020 9:33:22 GMT -6
I had started the translation of Sundarananda Vidyavinode's book about the guru many years ago, but did not get very far. It cites many different sources. I remember getting through the section on the required behavior of the guru, as well as the misbehavior that would disqualify the person.
When it comes to money, although our Baba did not touch it (nor did the famous Ramkrisha, guru of Vivekananda), there are practical matters concerning necessary finances. It is customary to make donations, within one's means. Our Baba had me make a small contribution towards a big feast to conclude a Bhagavata-saptaha at our temple at Govardhana. It would be impossible to run and maintain the handful of mandirs we have without donations. If the guru wants a fleet of yachts, and uses the donations to get them, then one would think that is highly questionable, unless they are to be used to fish plastic out of the ocean that just keeps increasing out there and destroying the environment. For most Indians, there is the general impression that all Americans are very wealthy people, as if we were all millionaires or billionaires. They were never bashful about asking me to sponsor them (which at the time cost several thousand dollars) for a visa, and they really were desperate to get out of India and over to America.
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Post by Ramdas on Feb 22, 2020 10:54:15 GMT -6
When I was doing research on Prabhu Nityananda for my master's thesis, I was not able to find much about him and his life in the Bengali literature. It is unfortunate that we know so much about Caitanya Mahaprabhu, yet so little about the founder of our own lineage, the Nityananda Poribar.
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Post by Ramdas on Feb 22, 2020 14:09:23 GMT -6
The gentleman on the right is wearing tilak of another poribar, and he is wearing colors CV adherents do not wear. That is curious.
Re: Longevity for us. Barring any terminal illness that will kill us very quickly, I think it's extremely difficult to project our life expectancy, given how in recent years the process of aging is getting better and better understood. Who is to say that any day now, there will not be a breakthough in stopping the shortening of the telomeres, among other procesess? There have been many predictions in technology that actually came to pass far earlier than expected.
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Post by Ramdas on Feb 22, 2020 14:16:05 GMT -6
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Post by Ramdas on Feb 23, 2020 14:16:35 GMT -6
Since some questions have been raised here, I will attempt to expound upon my own take on it all.
Theology is under the category of doctrine, whereas sadhana is under the category of a process to achieve a goal. In our case the goal is bhakti-prem and entering into the nitya-lila in the yoga-pitha. In my own life I have had personal experiences that are not ordinary experiences that most people experience in their daily lives. Furthermore, there is no rational explanation for them, yet there were external physical manifestations in some cases. I see that as a good foundation for having an open mind about consciousness continuing beyond death of these cellular carbon-based bodies we inhabit. In addition to that, having an open mind about other possiblities as well unrelated to life after death.
Now when it comes to gauging one's own progress via sadhana, the descriptions of the bodily symptoms have been provided, and we all know what those are. If we start to experience those in our own bodies, then that indicates we are hitting milestones on our path to the ultimate goal.
Besides that, altered states of consciousness (and mystical ones in particular) are much better understood now via research in neurology and fMRI brain scans of people in those altered states. Prior to that, what was already described in the Brahma-sutra was not really objectively verifiable.
Regarding the nature of the siddha deha and the yoga-pitha, we can speculate about what those descriptions really mean. We can choose to just meditate with mantras and treat the lila-smarana as a mere exercise, a mental exercise with a dramatic script in which we have a role, but based on fantasy.
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I don't condemn people who are trying to reach there. That's my thinking on this.