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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 26, 2019 9:49:09 GMT -6
Thesis: India is no longer worthy of hosting Radha and Krsna. Caitanya Vaisnavism is stagnating there among complacent, self-adoring, self-promoting bhaktas. Let's invite Radha and Krsna and Mahaprabhu to leave there and come here.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 26, 2019 10:03:00 GMT -6
I have given up on India. I think it is about time to take Radha and Krsna away from that complacent bunch of self-adulating Goswamis and Babas. Though once there was strong raganuga bhakti there, now it is all vaidhi-bhakti or worse bhaktyabhasa. Caitanya Vaisnavism in India is stuck in the past and cannot free itself from insidious, encroaching Hindu culture, especially of the Sanatana Dharma variety, without a serious upheaval. Perhaps it is my own arrogance, but it seems to me if we ask Radha and Krsna to leave India sincerely enough, they will. Wouldn't that be a delicious coup? No more prayers answered, no more divine presence in the temples or on the altars. I bet the Indian bhaktas would not even notice. All we have to do is ask them. They have no special, unbreakable connection with India. They can come live here (in the West), provided we have a strong enough love for them and a comfortable place for them to stay. This would be a great challenge for us. We would have to get serious about improving and strengthening our own bhakti. This would be good for us. Bhakti is a power, a sakti, the hladini-sakti, to be exact, and Krsna cannot resist it when it is strong. Let's steal Radha and Krsna from India! I have already started in fact. When I do my mantras I also beg for them to come here and live, giving up India. Please join me. It may be difficult, but it is not impossible. We know how to do it. Let's just do it!
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jiva
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Post by jiva on Oct 26, 2019 23:35:10 GMT -6
Thesis: India is no longer worthy of hosting Radha and Krsna. Caitanya Vaisnavism is stagnating there among complacent, self-adoring, self-promoting bhaktas. Let's invite Radha and Krsna and Mahaprabhu to leave there and come here. Oh, I already hear the remarks: Krsna never leaves Vrindavana, so Ravana abducted Sita... I remember discussing Indian flora and fauna privately.
In the scriptures are mentioned various examples of flora and fauna, but how, as a devotee of the West who had never seen it, can meditate on it?
Okay, thanks to the internet, this may be possible now, but why limit Krsna to the beauty of the flora and fauna of India?
I believe that in heavenly Goloka there is a beautiful nature like the one in the West. Just random toughts.
I hope you understand what I mean.
/Happy Divali to all!/ |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Oct 27, 2019 5:14:17 GMT -6
Good morning all. Jai Gour! Jai Nitai! This is a nice idea to wake up to. At least to get the bhakti brain to wake up a little bit with me today. Some thoughts, if you can call them that... While I like the idea of getting Radha Govindadevji to come here (and Gaura Nityandanda... and Advaita Gadadhar Srivas... the list goes on!!  ), isn't it that They are already here? I think there are a lot of differing ideas about 'India' and 'Gokula' and where our ista devatas reside. Like the idea of 'dying in Vrindavan' I'm pretty sure that isn't referring to the geographical land of Vraj. Sure, it can refer to that, but what if you're meditating on your favorite Lord of the Rings scene as you leave your body in geographical Vrindavan. Have you really left in Vrindavan? No. Thus I argue for the 'Vrindava state of mind' something like Billy Joel's 'New York state of mind' song. Hmm... sounds like a song or at least poem I should attempt. So conversely, if I'm in the worst, dirties, most foul slum of Los Angeles, surrounded by prostitutes, gang members, and drug addicts, even there I can be in Vrindavan if in my mind's eye I am seeing Them and meditating upon Them in some form or fashion but most likely have the Mahamantra going on. Or maybe it's Gita Govinda or Siksastakam or?? Thus can we really steal Radhe Shyam from Vraj? Nope. We're stealing Them and Vraj!! And They are here right now in real time. Just say Their Names and wallah! They're there! Another idea is that in terms of planetary systems and galaxies that Goloka is some far far away place. But is it really? If that's so, then how come a pure Vaishnav sadhu who is here (or was here to take the example of Srimat Tinkodi Baba or many of the other siddha saints) is also in Vrindavan? Now granted Baba lived in one of the dhamas for the most part, but even in traveling within India, yet between holy places, was he not in the dham?? He was! Always, right? This is what 'Krsna consciousness' really means, that we are (constantly) conscious of Krsna and when we are, we're also Radha conscious, guru conscious, etc. And They are all there with us in real time. So to steal Them or not to steal Them, that is the question! Are They steal-able?  I know that Sri Krishna is a great thief and Gaura as well. Maybe we need to follow Them by stealing Them away into our minds and meditations... idam te vapur natha gopala-balam
sada me manasy avirastam kim anyaih"...What I want is that the beautiful form of this child, Gopala, may ever be manifest in my mind. What is the use of any other boon?" Damodarastakam verse 4 Same goes for any other form, right? Radha Govinda, Gaur Nityananda, etc. Also, if Narasimhadeva can be here or there, in our hearts or outside as well ( yato yato yami tato nrsimha, bahir nrsimho hridaye nrsimho...), then can't the original 'anadir adir' Govinda do the same?  |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 27, 2019 10:43:53 GMT -6
Good morning all. Jai Gour! Jai Nitai! This is a nice idea to wake up to. At least to get the bhakti brain to wake up a little bit with me today. Some thoughts, if you can call them that... While I like the idea of getting Radha Govindadevji to come here (and Gaura Nityandanda... and Advaita Gadadhar Srivas... the list goes on!! ), isn't it that They are already here? I think there are a lot of differing ideas about 'India' and 'Gokula' and where our ista devatas reside. Like the idea of 'dying in Vrindavan' I'm pretty sure that isn't referring to the geographical land of Vraj. Sure, it can refer to that, but what if you're meditating on your favorite Lord of the Rings scene as you leave your body in geographical Vrindavan. Have you really left in Vrindavan? No. Thus I argue for the 'Vrindava state of mind' something like Billy Joel's 'New York state of mind' song. Hmm... sounds like a song or at least poem I should attempt. So conversely, if I'm in the worst, dirties, most foul slum of Los Angeles, surrounded by prostitutes, gang members, and drug addicts, even there I can be in Vrindavan if in my mind's eye I am seeing Them and meditating upon Them in some form or fashion but most likely have the Mahamantra going on. Or maybe it's Gita Govinda or Siksastakam or?? Thus can we really steal Radhe Shyam from Vraj? Nope. We're stealing Them and Vraj!! And They are here right now in real time. Just say Their Names and wallah! They're there! Another idea is that in terms of planetary systems and galaxies that Goloka is some far far away place. But is it really? If that's so, then how come a pure Vaishnav sadhu who is here (or was here to take the example of Srimat Tinkodi Baba or many of the other siddha saints) is also in Vrindavan? Now granted Baba lived in one of the dhamas for the most part, but even in traveling within India, yet between holy places, was he not in the dham?? He was! Always, right? This is what 'Krsna consciousness' really means, that we are (constantly) conscious of Krsna and when we are, we're also Radha conscious, guru conscious, etc. And They are all there with us in real time. So to steal Them or not to steal Them, that is the question! Are They steal-able? I know that Sri Krishna is a great thief and Gaura as well. Maybe we need to follow Them by stealing Them away into our minds and meditations... idam te vapur natha gopala-balam
sada me manasy avirastam kim anyaih"...What I want is that the beautiful form of this child, Gopala, may ever be manifest in my mind. What is the use of any other boon?" Damodarastakam verse 4 Same goes for any other form, right? Radha Govinda, Gaur Nityananda, etc. Also, if Narasimhadeva can be here or there, in our hearts or outside as well ( yato yato yami tato nrsimha, bahir nrsimho hridaye nrsimho...), then can't the original 'anadir adir' Govinda do the same? View AttachmentGood almost afternoon, Nilamadhava dasji. Thanks for providing the purvapaksa to this suggestion. The purvapaksa means the opposing view or previous position which naturally in this discussion is that we cannot steal Radha and Krsna from India, that they are already here, that whoever utters the holy name has Krsna in his mouth, that someone who dies thinking of Krsna even if that person is in a gutter in LA has died in Vrndavana, and so forth. This kind of response its like the sort of thing the Catholic church has for centuries told its poor and exploited members. "Do not complain, do not agitate, do not revolt. Just tolerate your poverty and exploitation and your reward will be in heaven." Thus has power spoken to the weak for millennia. Everything is as it should be. Don't rock the boat. The platitudes you have invoked are meant to perform the same function: not rocking the boat and keeping the weak in their places. Let's look at some of your claims. First, what is platitude? A platitude is something someone has read in a book somewhere and memorized and then repeats when an occasion arises. It is only a verbal expression. If one really believed that when we utter the word Krsna we were really in Krsna's presence one would be overwhelmed with ecstasy and incapable of doing and thinking anything else. Instead, we can hardly finish a round of Harinama without looking at our watches and wishing we were done. Platitudes lack direct and powerful experience. One cannot experience Krsna's identity with his name without being entirely blown away, or experience his very real presence here without being overwhelmed. We are not talking about a movie star here. We are talking about connecting with the sacred. This is truly a mind-blowing experience, not just a thrill. Of course we can steal Radha and Krsna from India. We can if we develop powerful bhakti. Bhakti is a power that Krsna cannot resist and Radhika is the source of that bhakti. Do you think Krsna can resist Radhika? As far as some of your other claims go: if Radna and Krsna are already here, where are they? They are certainly not in any ISKCON temple. Those murtis are dead stone or scap metal. There is no genuine CV temple here where Radha and Krsna might reside. The other temples are all connected with some aisvarya group like the Venkatesvara temple in South India. Is it likely that Radha and Krsna are there? Not likely. The concept of madhurya seva is completely foreign to such groups. Again, there are images, but presence is highly unlikely. Who utters the holy name as they die of starvation in LA? All your platitudes are hypothetical, the likelihood of their being true is extremely small, if not impossible. So Radha and Krsna are not really here. They never have been. Moreover, if any of the vaidhi bhaktas in India thought they were here, they would not be constantly recommending that we, Western sudras or untouchables, go there to get sanga and bhakti. If we can draw Radha and Krsna here, those Indian bhaktas will have to come here to get sanga and bhakti, Wouldn't that be rich? My main point is that there is no inherent connection between Radha and Krsna or Gauranga and India. They only happened to appear there. We need to scrub the Hindu dharma dross off of them and their tradition before we can access pure CV. Gold when it is mined is mixed with other metals and impurities. It needs to be purified before it becomes valuable. |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Oct 28, 2019 11:53:09 GMT -6
Good almost afternoon, Nilamadhava dasji. Thanks for providing the purvapaksa to this suggestion. The purvapaksa means the opposing view or previous position which naturally in this discussion is that we cannot steal Radha and Krsna from India, that they are already here, that whoever utters the holy name has Krsna in his mouth, that someone who dies thinking of Krsna even if that person is in a gutter in LA has died in Vrndavana, and so forth. This kind of response its like the sort of thing the Catholic church has for centuries told its poor and exploited members. "Do not complain, do not agitate, do not revolt. Just tolerate your poverty and exploitation and your reward will be in heaven." Thus has power spoken to the weak for millennia. Everything is as it should be. Don't rock the boat. The platitudes you have invoked are meant to perform the same function: not rocking the boat and keeping the weak in their places. Let's look at some of your claims. First, what is platitude? A platitude is something someone has read in a book somewhere and memorized and then repeats when an occasion arises. It is only a verbal expression. If one really believed that when we utter the word Krsna we were really in Krsna's presence one would be overwhelmed with ecstasy and incapable of doing and thinking anything else. Instead, we can hardly finish a round of Harinama without looking at our watches and wishing we were done. Platitudes lack direct and powerful experience. One cannot experience Krsna's identity with his name without being entirely blown away, or experience his very real presence here without being overwhelmed. We are not talking about a movie star here. We are talking about connecting with the sacred. This is truly a mind-blowing experience, not just a thrill. Of course we can steal Radha and Krsna from India. We can if we develop powerful bhakti. Bhakti is a power that Krsna cannot resist and Radhika is the source of that bhakti. Do you think Krsna can resist Radhika? As far as some of your other claims go: if Radna and Krsna are already here, where are they? They are certainly not in any ISKCON temple. Those murtis are dead stone or scap metal. There is no genuine CV temple here where Radha and Krsna might reside. The other temples are all connected with some aisvarya group like the Venkatesvara temple in South India. Is it likely that Radha and Krsna are there? Not likely. The concept of madhurya seva is completely foreign to such groups. Again, there are images, but presence is highly unlikely. Who utters the holy name as they die of starvation in LA? All your platitudes are hypothetical, the likelihood of their being true is extremely small, if not impossible. So Radha and Krsna are not really here. They never have been. Moreover, if any of the vaidhi bhaktas in India thought they were here, they would not be constantly recommending that we, Western sudras or untouchables, go there to get sanga and bhakti. If we can draw Radha and Krsna here, those Indian bhaktas will have to come here to get sanga and bhakti, Wouldn't that be rich? My main point is that there is no inherent connection between Radha and Krsna or Gauranga and India. They only happened to appear there. We need to scrub the Hindu dharma dross off of them and their tradition before we can access pure CV. Gold when it is mined is mixed with other metals and impurities. It needs to be purified before it becomes valuable. Jai Gour! Thank you for your reply Nitai Dada. I definitely didn't mean for my post to be negative in any way. In fact, what I'd like to move forward with is what you mentioned at the end of your last post by the idea of developing powerful Bhakti. I wasn't trying to say, "We can't steal Radha Krsna or we shouldn't..." I think you have seen in my other posts and threads here on the symposium that I am all for starting a temple/center/sanga/community of CV here in the USA. I would LOVE that. How to make it happen is uncertain. Joseph has his ideas. You have yours. I have mine. I'm sure there are a number of other scattered CV people here that have theirs as well. So what can we do to make some kind of community wherein we can "develop powerful bhakti" as you have mentioned? Or in a lesser case scenario, is there a better way we can all connect with one another to encourage, support, and mutually grow and strengthen our bhakti individually and collectively? What would it mean practically to you that we steal Radha Govinda from India and bring Them here? Is it only developing powerful bhakti? Would it additionally be establishing a CV center here somewhere? What else? Jai Sri Radhe! |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Oct 28, 2019 11:57:39 GMT -6
Oh, I already hear the remarks: Krsna never leaves Vrindavana, so Ravana abducted Sita... I remember discussing Indian flora and fauna privately.
In the scriptures are mentioned various examples of flora and fauna, but how, as a devotee of the West who had never seen it, can meditate on it?
Okay, thanks to the internet, this may be possible now, but why limit Krsna to the beauty of the flora and fauna of India?
I believe that in heavenly Goloka there is a beautiful nature like the one in the West. Just random toughts.
I hope you understand what I mean.
/Happy Divali to all!/ Dear Jiva, I'm not sure if this link will work, but this is a photo album of some of the flora and fauna of Vraja... www.facebook.com/advaitad/media_set?set=a.285566586930&type=3 This is one of the albums of Advaita Dasji of Netherlands. So that may aid in your meditations I hope! And of course why wouldn't some of the local US flora and fauna be there in the lilas? Jai Radhe! Jai Giridhari! |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 28, 2019 12:40:29 GMT -6
Let me clarify my meaning a bit here. I don't wish any harm on Indian bhaktas. Nor do I mean to belittle vaidhi-bhaktas. Vaidhi bhakti is better than no bhakti. May they shine splendidly in Vaikuntha with their four arms and all! I do, however, detect no small amount of complacence among Indian bhaktas today. That and a huge dollop of arrogance. Many of the younger generation of Indian CV bhaktas were born into families that are traditionally Vaisnava, even Caitanya Vaisnava. So for them there was little or no choice in the matter. This is what I mean by vaidhi bhakti. When your family programs you to become a member of the inherited religion and you are given little or no choice, that is not raganuga-bhakti. One becomes a bhakta to please one's parents and to uphold a family traditions, to live up to one's ancestors' reputations. This is not passion. Nor should one try to disguise that fact by suggesting that so-and-so was born into such-and-such a family because of good past karma. Such births can actually be detrimental to one's chances of gaining entrance into Gokula. Moreover, it is clear to me that the CV movement in India has gone down hill. It has been partially spoiled by IGM. It has been partially spoiled by insincere members who are most interested in promoting their own reputations than in communicating the teachings and practices of the CV tradition. When I was there 40 years ago it was still filled with siddhas and other highly advanced bhaktas. Nowadays there are almost none. Perhaps there are none any more. Just look at the siddhas Subrato posted on this site in another thread. Everyone he posted is dead or nearly dead! My gurudeva has left the planet as well and so have Krsnacarana Das Babaji and others. So my intention is to spark a little healthy competition. If the Indian bhaktas think we will steal Radha and Krsna from them (of course some of them are so sure of themselves they won't) then perhaps they will get more serious about their practices and less about bragging about who they know and who loves them. On this side, if we want to steal Radha and Krsna away from India, we will have to get serious about our practices and stop wasting time in pointless discussions and deliberations. Of course, Radha and Krsna will do what they want, but we can do our best to draw them here and keep them. I think they will go where they are loved the most and I am pretty sure that present day India is weak on that front. Why can it not be us!
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 28, 2019 13:24:59 GMT -6
Jai Gour! Thank you for your reply Nitai Dada. I definitely didn't mean for my post to be negative in any way. In fact, what I'd like to move forward with is what you mentioned at the end of your last post by the idea of developing powerful Bhakti. I wasn't trying to say, "We can't steal Radha Krsna or we shouldn't..." I think you have seen in my other posts and threads here on the symposium that I am all for starting a temple/center/sanga/community of CV here in the USA. I would LOVE that. How to make it happen is uncertain. Joseph has his ideas. You have yours. I have mine. I'm sure there are a number of other scattered CV people here that have theirs as well. So what can we do to make some kind of community wherein we can "develop powerful bhakti" as you have mentioned? Or in a lesser case scenario, is there a better way we can all connect with one another to encourage, support, and mutually grow and strengthen our bhakti individually and collectively? What would it mean practically to you that we steal Radha Govinda from India and bring Them here? Is it only developing powerful bhakti? Would it additionally be establishing a CV center here somewhere? What else? Jai Sri Radhe! No worries, Nilamadhava dasji. You provided just the response I was hoping for. I could not have done better if I wrote it myself. Those were all good points. It may sound strange to you, but I think organizing at this point is putting the cart before the horse. We should concentrate on developing that powerful bhakti first. Then the details of where Radha and Krsna will stay and who will serve them will almost work themselves out. My strong feeling is that if someone among us succeeds in developing such a love, Radha and Krsna will stay in tool shed if they have to just to be close to their lover. In a sense we are already a community, those of us who frequent this site and those who follow it silently, the ghosts. Many of us share the same goals and hopes and are tied in some powerful way to CV philosophy and practice. We can extend that somewhat by cooperating with each other and brainstorming as time goes on, but our first big business is to develop a love powerful enough that R&K will not be able to keep themselves from coming to stay near us. I think the secret method to do this is in the texts you found recently by Siddha Manohara Das Babaji. It is his great gift to our generation of CV practitioner and his logic is flawless in terms of the methods advocated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I think if we focus on executing his plan for developing love for Radha and Krsna, we will succeed and perhaps do so in record time. |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Oct 28, 2019 14:08:19 GMT -6
Well then good sir, how long does our greed have to grow until we get to read the Siddha Manohar Dasa Babaji books in English? I did very much appreciate the texts you've already posted. By the way, I'm more than happy to do proofreading, editing, etc. Would love to read the book I just got to you and the BSP book that's on the burner as well. Please advise.
Jai Sri Radhe!!
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jiva
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Post by jiva on Oct 28, 2019 21:57:46 GMT -6
Dear Jiva, I'm not sure if this link will work, but this is a photo album of some of the flora and fauna of Vraja... www.facebook.com/advaitad/media_set?set=a.285566586930&type=3 This is one of the albums of Advaita Dasji of Netherlands. So that may aid in your meditations I hope! And of course why wouldn't some of the local US flora and fauna be there in the lilas? Jai Radhe! Jai Giridhari! Yes, I know about that photo album. This is one of the reasons why I wrote - "thanks to the internet". Still, thanks for wanting to help. |
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jiva
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Post by jiva on Oct 28, 2019 22:27:14 GMT -6
A matter of semantics, but still ...
I don't think the word "steal" should be used because steal means - take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
I consider Radha and Krishna to belong to everyone
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 29, 2019 10:36:22 GMT -6
Well then good sir, how long does our greed have to grow until we get to read the Siddha Manohar Dasa Babaji books in English? I did very much appreciate the texts you've already posted. By the way, I'm more than happy to do proofreading, editing, etc. Would love to read the book I just got to you and the BSP book that's on the burner as well. Please advise. Jai Sri Radhe!! I've already started. See the thread under the Modern Caitanyite Literature. The first two verses are there and the third will be up today. This is not a book for mere reading. It is a book to be used in kirtana, to be sung as Baba says in his reference to it in the introduction to his Vaidagdha-vilasa. Thus it should be memorized and sung or chanted on a regular basis. In that respect it is like Sanatana Goswami's first book the Sri Krsna-lila-stava which is the first lila-smarana text and which also incorporates 108 prostrations. That is another work which, I am confident, if recited or used in smarana or kirtana would bring about the acquisition of Krsna-prema. It is pre-astakaliya and follows the narrative of the Bhagavata 10th book up until Krsna leaves Vraja. Anyway, the first three verses of Siddha Baba's book are profound and require some meditation in order to understand and see the reason for their being placed at the front of the book. The rest of the verses are more simple and easily remembered. They are more lyrical it seems to me. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 29, 2019 10:49:26 GMT -6
A matter of semantics, but still ... I don't think the word "steal" should be used because steal means - take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it. I consider Radha and Krishna to belong to everyone I think stealing is the perfect word because the Indian bhaktas think that Radha and Krsna belong to them. They tell us we need to go there and deal with them in order to grow our bhakti. Theologically speaking Radha and Krsna may belong to everyone, but emotionally or rasikally they belong to who ever wants them the most. That should be us. Why not? Let those Indian bhaktas come to us to grow their bhakti. Why should we go to them? If Radha and Krsna come here this will be Vraja. Forget the old one. There is no reason for India to have a monopoly on holy places. |
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Post by Meeno on Nov 29, 2019 18:52:53 GMT -6
Well, although I come in a long line of scoundrels, being the son of Nino and the grandson of Carmelo (some of them were not as big a scoundrel as some of the others), however, here is my 2 paisa on this:
I thought I already stole away the divine couple when I brought them back to America in the form of a rock from Govardhana hill (Radha's presence is implied, since she never leaves the side of Giridhari). Now, some people may say, that rock is nothing special and 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder...' and so forth and so on. I prefer good poetry to platititudes myself. The rock is what Mircea Eliade in this context refers to as a power object. However, it is much more than that, is it not? Technically I did not sneak off with that shila, because it was handed to me by a braj-basi (yep, a babaji that resides there, who was just as entitled to that status as the local natives born and raised in the Mathura district).
They let me carry them away and over the ocean and to a land far, far away. They did not even put up a fight. Technically they up and left and went away, and I was just a means of transportation. They wanted a holiday, and are still on it after a few decades. Yay! Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed my holiday in India as much as the next person. No harm, no fault to that storied nation, despite the current 2nd hand reports I have been getting of its crumbling infrastructure in tatters. Vishnu is the supreme maintainer. What's wrong with that picture?
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), isn't it that They are already here? 
