Stealing Radha and Krsna and Mahaprabhu away from India

[Meeno]

Well, as you may have noticed, my statement that she never leaves his side is not really accurate. He will leave her side at times, correct?

[meeno8]

  And then the intense emotions arising from separation between the Two.

[Nitaidas]

Nov 29, 2019 18:52:53 GMT -6 Meeno said:

Well, although I come in a long line of scoundrels, being the son of Nino and the grandson of Carmelo (some of them were not as big a scoundrel as some of the others), however, here is my 2 paisa on this:
I thought I already stole away the divine couple when I brought them back to America in the form of a rock from Govardhana hill (Radha's presence is implied, since she never leaves the side of Giridhari). Now, some people may say, that rock is nothing special and 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder...' and so forth and so on. I prefer good poetry to platititudes myself. The rock is what Mircea Eliade in this context refers to as a power object. However, it is much more than that, is it not? Technically I did not sneak off with that shila, because it was handed to me by a braj-basi (yep, a babaji that resides there, who was just as entitled to that status as the local natives born and raised in the Mathura district).

They let me carry them away and over the ocean and to a land far, far away. They did not even put up a fight. Technically they up and left and went away, and I was just a means of transportation. They wanted a holiday, and are still on it after a few decades. Yay! Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed my holiday in India as much as the next person. No harm, no fault to that storied nation, despite the current 2nd hand reports I have been getting of its crumbling infrastructure in tatters. Vishnu is the supreme maintainer. What's wrong with that picture?

Hey Meeno, welcome back to the symposium. It is good to see you here again. Yes, I, too, brought back a piece of divinity (Giridhari) that looked like a stone and that was also given me by a top-notch sadhu-baba. He stayed with me for a while and then went on to better pastures. I believe he is back in India now, perhaps at the ashram at Radhakund that was once Baba's. His departure was my fault. I did not take good care of him. But I don't want him to just return to me. I want him to return not for a vacation or a short while. I want him to come here to stay and leave there permanently. I want Radha and Krsna to quit India altogether. I know they will if I or someone else here develops a Krsna-prema that is intense enough. They cannot say no to powerful bhakti.

By wanting this I am setting myself and others here a big challenge. Bhakti controls them. That is the secret of bhakti that few know about or understand. Now I know that one cannot develop powerful raga-bhakti on one's own or through one's own efforts. One needs grace, the Lord's grace, the advanced bhaktas' grace, the grace of the Gopis, and so forth. However, I think one thing in our favor is the decadence of Mahaprabhu's bhaktas in India. Surely Radha and Krsna are getting tired of their complacence, arrogance, sense of privilege, penchant for misguiding and putting down foreigners like us, belief that just by being born in India they are superior to us in every way. The truth is that most are barely kanistha adhikaris and their path is not the path of raganuga, but vaidhi. They are bhaktas because they are born in families that have been bhaktas for generations. If they don't want to disappoint their ancestors and current family members. They have no choice. That is not raga; it is vaidha. We on the other hand have chosen to pursue Radha and Krsna. We could have gone in a thousand other directions, become Buddhists, Daoists, Jews, Christians, or joined some New Age Spiritual group. But instead we chose R and K. We have from the very beginning started at a level that they cannot reach. They are stuck on the path to Vaikuntha as a result of vaidhi-bhakti. We, if we take up the challenge, can reach Goloka on the path of raga-bhakti. Our challenge is not to let this wonderful opportunity slip away. We don't need vaidha bhaktas or even India to do it. Let's steal R and K away from India and let those beggars come here if they ever learn to want them passionately. In fact, by doing so we are doing them a favor. When R and K abandon them, they might actually develop some passion for them. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. For now they are merely sunk deep in their dogmatic slumbers.

But I speak as if it is a done deal. It is far from that. I believe the great siddhas of the past have given us a some aids, some tools that we can avail ourselves of, tools such as Sanatana Goswami's Sri Krsna-lila-stava, the first of the smarana-granthas, and his Brhad-Bhagavatamrta, but most poignantly Siddha Manohara Das Baba's GGNKRM (Gaura-Govinda-Nama-Kirtana-Ratna-Mala). While the former works are powerful aids, the latter may be our best tool. Stay tuned for more on that. (See the other thread under Modern Caitanya Literature where that text is being transcribed and translated.)

[meeno8]

My 3 paisas on this subject: The bhakti movement fostered by Mahaprabhu is fluid and evolving over the past 500 centuries and change. That is my point of view after several decades of using the mahaamantra as my primary tool. It is no longer a pan-Indian phenomenon, but an international one. It clearly did not start with Mahaprabhu, however he ignited a new revolutionary trend in that era of the 6 goswamins and the writings they produced. Generational cohorts have their own charateristics, separate from their parents' generation. Our parents were not that big on rock'n'roll, yet we also appreciated Sinatra, and some of us even Beethoven, Bach & Brahms. In Indian society, which is far more rigid, until recently you would hardly find any divergence from one generation to the next. Here in the West that is very typical. As far as the locale of the Divine Couple (and I do appreciate what you are doing here by starting your contest), they can be in as many places simultaneously as they wish. Maybe they belong in Australia or New Zealand, if they decide they don't want to be in more than one place. Of course we want them to be under our own roofs if they decide to not be in multiple places at the same time. Then again, they are all pervasive, correct? That is my understanding. Out of over 200 countries, which one is now at the top of the Hladini leader board? Ha!

[meeno8]

One maybe has to wonder, in light of the evolution of human society in the West described by Pinker in his Enlightenment Now, if our movement has a subtle undercurrent that gave rise to the Age of Reason and culminating in the American Revolution (not that it was perfect by any means, but at least our Constitution was based on that of the Navajo Nation). What is the driving force that has been civilizing societies in Europe and North America (among other places) and resulting in a decline in violent behavior for the past few centuries and now 70 years of peace (as in no major wars between nation states, and rebellions and skirmishes and civil wars do not count)? I think we as adherents of CV should be chalking it up to Their will for their own purposes. Why should the human species be a good host to R/K, if they continue to behave like barbarians? What Indian culture brings to the table is one thing, but what Western culture with the values of the Enlightenment and Age of Reason bring to the table is perhaps far more powerful in the grand scheme of things. We can sit in our bhajan kutirs oblivious of the world outside, which in one sense is what we are supposed to be doing when we withdraw from society. However, as long as we as householders still reside in our society, we need to consider various trends.

[Nitaidas]

Question: how many women must be gang-raped and murdered before Radha and Krsna leave India? Now, I know the United States has its own problems, mostly centered around gun violence and persistent racism, but there is something deeply disturbing about attitudes towards women that even some women hold in India and it comes from deeply rooted attitudes inherited from traditional Hinduism, this so-called Sanatana Dharma, and that includes Caitanya Vaisnavism.

The latest gang rape is reported in the BBC in an article entitled: Jaya Bachchan: India MP calls for lynching of Hyderabad rapists. The poor woman's name cannot be given by the press because of an Indian law, but she was 27 and a veterinarian. Her half-burned body was recovered under a bridge several days after she disappeared. Several months back a 14 year old Muslim girl was gang-raped and murdered "to send a message to the Muslim community" by Hindu "men." Then, even some Hindu women were praising the act. India is no country for old gods, no country for moral gods. India has no business thinking it can teach other countries and cultures something, especially not something about love. It is time for Radha and Krsna to quit India. It is also time for male privilege to be purged from the CV male consciousness both here and in India.

[meeno8]

As Pinker points out, there are still holdouts in some pockets on the globe, but violence is trending down year over year. Women in general are gaining traction, even in some of the most repressive regimes.  Women in Saudi Arabia can now get drivers licenses. Sectarianism is one thing, a racist construct like varnashram (varna meaning color in English) quite another. CV is not inherently misogynist in doctrine (unless someone can provide counter-examples to that assertion). Nityananda Prabhu's wife Jahnava Mata had shisyas, did she not? You make some valid points Nitai, but we need to consider the context. In his other book on violence, Angels of Our Better Nature, Pinker demonstrates how the south in the US is intrinsically more violent as a culture than the north. That is due to it being an honor culture. In the Gita someone states that for one who has been honored dishonor is worse than death, correct? Rules of engagement on the battlefield are there for a reason, to avoid atrocities on both sides. Honor killings of daughters by fathers is more than just disturbing, and that goes on here in the good ol' US of A every year in the Muslim community.  Violence is going to be endemic to any culture to some degree.  The important thing about the trend of it decreasing historically means people are getting more culturally refined and civilized in the process.  How can we expect bhakti to arise among people that behave no better than animals?  Animals have an excuse for their behavior.  We hold ourselves to a higher standard (at least ostensibly with some individuals).  But, I digress.   We need to focus on our community, and not so much on those outside of it, irrespective of their geography.  That is my take on this.  Our community is dedicated to bhajan and cultivating prema in madhurya rasa, outside the institutions that foster varna and ashram.

[Nityānanda dāsa]

Dec 2, 2019 10:43:16 GMT -6 Nitaidas said:

Question: how many women must be gang-raped and murdered before Radha and Krsna leave India? Now, I know the United States has its own problems, mostly centered around gun violence and persistent racism, but there is something deeply disturbing about attitudes towards women that even some women hold in India and it comes from deeply rooted attitudes inherited from traditional Hinduism, this so-called Sanatana Dharma, and that includes Caitanya Vaisnavism.

The latest gang rape is reported in the BBC in an article entitled: Jaya Bachchan: India MP calls for lynching of Hyderabad rapists. The poor woman's name cannot be given by the press because of an Indian law, but she was 27 and a veterinarian. Her half-burned body was recovered under a bridge several days after she disappeared. Several months back a 14 year old Muslim girl was gang-raped and murdered "to send a message to the Muslim community" by Hindu "men." Then, even some Hindu women were praising the act. India is no country for old gods, no country for moral gods. India has no business thinking it can teach other countries and cultures something, especially not something about love. It is time for Radha and Krsna to quit India. It is also time for male privilege to be purged from the CV male consciousness both here and in India.

Hmmm... lets see if I can offer anything to this discussion.

A few things that come to mind: 

Isn't it that women are gang raped in many countries for many reasons? All of which are completely disgusting and rationalizations of men who need some justification for their violent sexual abuse of others. 
I think we can easily single out India for many faults, just like we could do with any country. The US certainly isn't free of them. Or perhaps there is (or needs to be) some type of scoreboard as to where is the most/least pious as Meeno has suggested? Who could actually keep track of such things is beyond me. I mean, so many many violent, sexually abusive crimes happen all over, all the time that go without reporting or at least without making headlines. Who's to say India is worse than the US? Maybe even the powers that be in the US are more selective about what they allow to make headlines, which could be more subversive or deceitful. Of course that sends us off down the path of conspiracy theories and all that. No need to go there.
But what to do? Where should Radhe Shyam go? As you've said earlier (Nitai-ji), we need to develop pure bhakti. That will bring Them here. Yet then, what if They come to Kirksville and not New Jersey :-) 
It's reminding me of a perspective I came across when I was in college. I did one sociology project where I interviewed one very kind, intelligent, and professional black woman. I believe she's a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami. We were talking about racism and she said that in her view the climate in the US was just as racist as it ever was, except that now it is somewhat of a 'covered racism'. People don't outwardly use the 'n' word and burn crosses, lynch people and such. At least not in the 'north'. But she said she always felt that things were just as racially charged as ever. She has around 5 children and she explained to me that they live near a police station. She said how she always really stressed to her kids to NEVER run in front of the police station. Meaning that a running black kid is automatically guilty (of something). I could go on, but I think you get my point. Overt vs. covert racism/discrimination. I'm sure the same applies to the broad spectrum of violence, abuse, and all crime, deceit, dishonesty, etc. 
So who's to say these really horrific crimes towards women aren't happening in the US right here and now? And if so, does that make the US more or less qualified to 'steal' Radha Govinda? 
Lastly, I also recently heard of women in a college setting who will have men 'run a train' on them. Meaning that one woman will have a string of males have sex with her one after the other. I would imagine intoxication is involved and this probably centers around the sorority/fraternity/party culture at some universities. But how messed up is that? It seems to be that some women welcome this or somehow are intimidated into such a situation. Seems to me that shows somewhat more of a degraded perspective than a woman who resists it. I don't know.
Rape and sexual assault/abuse are probably some of the most repetitive and under-reported crimes. My sociological hat is dusty so I have no idea on the actual statistics, but when I worked counseling victims of domestic violence, I recall that the number or unreported cases was very high.
AND at that job, which was on the local military base here in New Jersey, the cases we would receive and investigate, we would present to a military board for decision. At least the incidents that took place in family housing on the base. I was surprised more than once when this military board excused the man who was clearly guilty. And it seems to me that it was purely because the man on trial had friends in high places. It was really upsetting when this would happen and it's a pretty regular thing sadly. 
It's almost as if some of the higher ups in military administration have a soft heart for men who've seen war and whatnot, that they feel justified in letting some violent guy off the hook. Kind of scary. 
Clearly some elements of Kali-yuga progress regardless of the country. Some degradation happens and is reported publicly, some happens and is covered up or doesn't make the news for whatever reason. I imagine that the elite in this country can get away with things we can't even imagine. Anyway, I'm done rambling for now. 

[R Das]

The 'news cycle' easily gives people a distorted view of reality. For all of the negative things that make headlines and broadcasts, what about all of the ordinary or positive news that we never hear about on the nightly news? 'If it bleeds it leads' is the motto of journalism. Without the ratings, the advertising dollars from sponsors will not pour in as much. Sure, they save the 'human interest stories' for the last couple minutes of the half hour to leave the viewers with that 'warm and fuzz'. After all they don't want them to stop tuning in to get their daily 'fix' of news. This thread started out lofty and then seemed to devolve into a very dark subject. Let us pull it back up out of the shadows and back into the light, shall we? Thank you, and Radhe Radhe!

[Nityānanda dāsa]

Dec 4, 2019 21:56:11 GMT -6 R Das said:

The 'news cycle' easily gives people a distorted view of reality. For all of the negative things that make headlines and broadcasts, what about all of the ordinary or positive news that we never hear about on the nightly news? 'If it bleeds it leads' is the motto of journalism. Without the ratings, the advertising dollars from sponsors will not pour in as much. Sure, they save the 'human interest stories' for the last couple minutes of the half hour to leave the viewers with that 'warm and fuzz'. After all they don't want them to stop tuning in to get their daily 'fix' of news. This thread started out lofty and then seemed to devolve into a very dark subject. Let us pull it back up out of the shadows and back into the light, shall we? Thank you, and Radhe Radhe!

I agree! I've been thinking about what I wrote and it is kind of just a bummer to think about. Not that we should ignore the world, but not that it should run our world either. What is the balance? That's an ongoing project for me. But yes, back to stealing Radha and Krishna! 

Jai Sri Radhe!

[meeno8]

Nancy Pelosi's Town Hall is on CNN right now. She is giving an education to the uneducated masses that need lessons in basic civics, which has been lost in our educational system in America. One other major deficiency is the lack of required reading in Plato's Republic and Aristotle's writings, let alone the works of Kant et al. Most people do not even comprehend the importance of philosophy and particularly in the sciences (physics, astronomy, chemistry, biology). Mathematics does not lie. Words can tell lies, however 2 + 2 = 4 cannot be undermined (except maybe in circumstances where that equality does not stand up, but for the sake of argument, let us go with that assumption). I have personally experience of the laws of Newtonian physics getting broken on a few occasions, but most of the time they do stand up. Perceptions are in fact inherently faulty, but direct perception (pratyaksha) is only one type of evidence or pramaana.  E = MC squared.  That is a very significant equation, and it is undoubtedly right there in the Sanskrit texts, if one looks hard enough.  It may be shrouded in metaphor or symbolism, but not likely written in that exact formula.  My brother-in-law's cousin heads up the team of physicists at CERN that detected the existence of the Higgs-Boson (or 'god') particle.  He said in an interview that it was predicted 2000 years ago.  I pretty much can guess he had the Upanishads or similar texts in mind.

[jiva]

It has started! 

Radha Krishna went from Udupi Krishna Temple towards me.

It's not like stealing because They themselves have decided to come.

Currently are in Abu Dhabi. link

[meeno8]

How are things in Abu Dhabi with R/K these days, Jiva? I have never been, but it looks very resplendent on camera.

[Nitaidas]

Update on that rape of that young lady in Hyderabad. The four men arrested for the rape have been summarily executed by the police, on the pretense of their trying to escape. They never made it trial. We will never know whether they were the guilty ones. They could have been just four men in the vicinity who were rounded up to make it appear as if the police were doing their job. The result of their murder: people, mostly women, cheering and dancing in the streets. A prominent member of congress, ex-actress, had called for the lynching of the men who were arrested for the rape. The police took care of the job. Yay India! Where justice and civilization go to die.

I think in spite of the evident problems found here in the USA, we can provide a better home for Radha and Krsna. Yes, let them come to Kirksville if they want. If you want them in New Jersey, Nilamadhava Dasji, you will have to love them more than me. It is a healthy competition. Jagadish will try to out love us. Minaketana will try to out love Jagadish. And so ad infinitum. In truth it will probably take all of us to draw them away from India, But how do we do it, that is what needs be discussed. I am still working on Siddha Baba's Bhakta-nama-kirtana, in preparation for his Gopi-nama-kirtana. That seems to me to be the best bet I have seen so far. Check the other thread for the latest update of that.

By the way, I am out in Crestone at present, enjoying the mountain air and winter chill. Saw some beautiful deer walk by our house earlier this afternoon. Betsy and I wish you all a lovely and joyful holiday season (except Subrato--aah, what the hell, even him).

[jiva]

Dec 14, 2019 8:16:46 GMT -6 meeno8 said:

How are things in Abu Dhabi with R/K these days, Jiva? I have never been, but it looks very resplendent on camera.

A small misunderstanding

The photo of Radha Krsna is from Udupi, India, when They were actually heading towards me.

A friend, who has been visiting India privately and who is currently working in Abu Dhabi, will bring Them to me for the Christmas holidays.

edit: By the way, Narasimha Thakur Ji ( from Vrindavana) has been with me for some 20 years and now - Radha Krsna.

I don't know why They want to be with me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess the reason that because I am most fallen and I need Their mercy the most.