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Post by muni317 on Mar 22, 2012 12:48:42 GMT -6
Duryodhana wants to fight and Arjuna does not want to fight , they are both wrong , they represent two aspects of the separatist ego.
Duryodhana is representing the manic obsessive bully and Arjuna is the self - indulgent victim .
Duryodhana is the oppressor and Arjuna is the regressor .
One persons mind likes to hate , another persons mind likes to hate the hatred. This same kind of drama and trauma happen in our own personal relationships ,in our own small scale Mahabarata rivalrys .
Duryodhana represents the politics of anger , Arjuna represents the politics of hype . Arjuna is full of hype ,he is using the Vedas against Krsna . But as a friend , Krsna will speak philosophy to Arjuna to help him see beyond petty raga and dvesh and comprehend the internal vision of soul .
Krsna is the same as His Word , His Word has the potency to purify Arjuna , thus Arjuna is allowed to become transparent to His Word.
As in this example of Arjuna and Duryodhana , very story in the shastra is illustrating positive or negative qualities of mentality and character and the need for the grace of the Word.
Duryodhana's anger represents the over heated left (male ) brain . Arjuna's stress represents the over heated right (female) brain. Duryodhana is illustrating left brain malicious male anger . Arjuna represents all the symptoms of female right brain type of stress . Duryodhana's male stress and Arjuna's female stress are the two different kinds of attachment , fear , and anger . These two kinds of (male and female )personal stress and (male and female ) political stress are gone completely when one hears the Word.
All internal and external , left brain and right brain , Mahabarata types of ignorance and delusion and stress are gone completely when Krsna says "don't grieve , don't mourn , don't lament for anyone , the conscious soul lives forever ".
"Me used to be angry young man (Duryodhana)
Me hiding me head in the sand (Arjuna)
You gave me the Word (Bhagavad Gita)
I finally heard (grace)
I'm doing the best that I can " ( anakulyena )
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Post by meeno8 on Dec 14, 2019 13:08:50 GMT -6
Interesting interpretation vis a vis neurology, muni. Are you still checking in on these threads from time to time?
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 13, 2022 7:13:08 GMT -6
As Nitai Mahashay has aptly pointed out, the Mahabharat is not an historical account, and to postulate that Sri Krishna spoke anything at all from those 18 chapters (BG), is patently absurd on a factual basis. I would have to say it does lay out the basic framework of the yoga darshan (one of the 6 philosophical disciplines), however not anything more than what is in the Yoga-sutras of Patanjali.
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Post by meeno8 on Apr 13, 2022 7:17:53 GMT -6
So... taking some lyrics from a Beatles song to explain the archetypes in the Mahabharata saga based on left brain/right brain research may be a curious oddity, but hardly worthy of anyone's valuable time (or brain power).
I do recommend reading books on research into the 2 hemispheres of the brain, because they are actually quite fascinating and thought provoking. Only reading books in our CV tradition is not only short sighted, but it is just religious fanaticism and symptomatic of lacking a well rounded education. It smacks of the IGM mentality.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 13, 2022 10:33:34 GMT -6
As Nitai Mahashay has aptly pointed out, the Mahabharat is not an historical account, and to postulate that Sri Krishna spoke anything at all from those 18 chapters (BG), is patently absurd on a factual basis. I would have to say it does lay out the basic framework of the yoga darshan (one of the 6 philosophical disciplines), however not anything more than what is in the Yoga-sutras of Patanjali. Mina Baba, you are blowing my cover here. These clever bhaktas here (and the peepers who look in but don't join) will figure out that I am trying (like Sridhara Svamin before me) to coax them back from the edge of the precipice of irrationality (and blind, uncritical faith) to a rational form of CV which I previously called Sane Vaisnavism (which does not mean non-ecstatic). In my comments on the Gita I am only following Sri Krishna Prem who says in his introduction to his The Yoga of the Bhagavad Gita (p. 10): Though its author is unknown (for we can scarcely adopt the orthodox view, that it was, as we have it, spoken by the historical Krishna on the battlefield of Kuruksetra) ...My only quibble with his statement is the use of the word "historical" here. That implies an historical basis for the Mahabharata and for Sri Krishna. Anyway whoever wrote the Gita and populated it with his own words issuing from the mouth of Sri Krishna was a seer in his own right as Sri Krishna Prem says later (p.11): To anyone who has eyes to see, the Gita is based on direct knowledge of Reality, and of the Path that leads to that Reality, and it is of little moment who wrote it or to what school he was outwardly affiliated.
Just wanted to set the record straight. I am currently interested in reading the commentary of Abhinavagupta on the Gita. I wonder how he draws from its text pearls relevant to his Kashmiri Saivism. Report forth coming!  |
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 13, 2022 11:46:31 GMT -6
I think you ousted yourself when you talked about being or starting atheist Vaisnavism. 😂. I don’t see the harm in believing in a historical krishna, especially in the beginning stages. These kinds of beliefs can be impediments as one progresses though.
When I was reading Madhurya Kadambini and the description of attaining Prem I realized there is nothing sane or rational about any of this.
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 13, 2022 11:54:38 GMT -6
Of course everyone has their own way of looking at things but to me what CV is proposing is the ability for someone to move their consciousness into a totally different reality where one is experiencing lila with Radha, Krishna and all their friends. The reality of this realm can’t be logically established but for some it can be experienced.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 14, 2022 11:14:16 GMT -6
I think you ousted yourself when you talked about being or starting atheist Vaisnavism. 😂. I don’t see the harm in believing in a historical krishna, especially in the beginning stages. These kinds of beliefs can be impediments as one progresses though. When I was reading Madhurya Kadambini and the description of attaining Prem I realized there is nothing sane or rational about any of this. Yes, I guess I did. Do you recall my reasoning? Please explain your reaction to the Madhurya-kadambini? |
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 14, 2022 13:53:40 GMT -6
Here are some quotes from the Madhurya Kadambini
This wonderful prema simultaneously grants powerful anxiety and relief from it. When this prema arises in its reservoir, the devotee, and slightly increases, the devotee is constantly scorched by the fire caused by the arrow of his great eagerness to encounter the Lord. His eagerness is so powerful that he cannot be satisfied even by having visions of the Lord's sweet form and pastimes. At that point his relatives are like a blind waterless well to him, his home is like a thorny forest, any food he may take feels like a great beating, praise offered by the saints feel like snakebites, his daily duties feel like death, his each and every limb feel like a big burden, consolations by his friends feel like a poisonous glance, his constant wakefulness feels like an ocean of repentance, and if sleep accidentally comes to him this again is like a torment tearing up his life. Maintenance of his body is like the embodiment of the Lord's punishment and his life airs are like grains roasted over and over again. What's more, that which was always considered desirable in the past is now looking like a great disaster. Even meditating on the Lord appears to be like self-deception!
TRANSLATION: After that, this prema assumes the nature of a magnet that attracts the black iron-like Çré Kåñëa, making Him appear before the devotee at some time. The Lord then also shows His own most auspicious innate attributes like beauty, nice fragrance, nice voice, His tenderness, nice taste, generosity and compassion to the senses, like the eyes, of His devotee. All these attributes are most sweet and eternally fresh and when the devotee starts to relish them with love, it increases within his heart at every moment. This causes a powerful eagerness and finally creates an ocean of ecstasy that no poet could properly describe. The bliss that a devotee enjoys at that time can only be slightly compared to the bliss a traveller on a sunstricken desert road feels when he comes to the cooling shade of the dense foliage provided by a thick Banyan-tree and takes shelter of a shore washed by hundreds of jugs of cold celestial Ganges water, or a forest elephant, who is constantly tormented by a forest fire feels when he is showered by an unending stream of water, or a person who is afflicted by hundreds of ailments and who is very greedy for taste feels when he suddenly gets sweet nectar to drink.
Then it goes on to explain the devotee seeing Krishna followed by this section of what happens after.
TRANSLATION — A little while later the devotee regains his consciousness and prays again for the darçana of his Lord., when he opens his eyes and fails to see the Lord he showers himself with his own tears and thinks to himself: "Have I just witnessed a dream? No, no, otherwise I could see signs of it on the bed and in my eyes. Then was it someone's magic spell? No, no. Such ecstasy could never be
169 Mädhurya Kädambiné
an illusion! Then was it an error of my consciousness? That is also not possible; otherwise, I would have experienced obstacles like laya and vikñepa (see beginning of this book). Or is this perhaps the fructification of one of my subtle yearnings? No, no, because none of my secret wishes could ever reach up to such boundaries! Then is it perhaps a direct vision of the Lord? No, that is also not possible, because I remember all my previous visions and this one was very special indeed!"
In this way the devotee has various doubts. Since he fell on the ground he has become grayed by dust. Sometimes he is praying for darçana again and again and rolls on the ground in great distress as a result, getting injured and fainting. Sometimes he wakes, rises, sits, runs or loudly cries like a madman. Sometimes he remains still for a while like a grave person, sometimes he ceases his normal rituals like a fallen person and sometimes he speaks nonsense like someone grasped by the planets (gone insane). Sometimes when some devotee-friend comes to console him and inquires from him privately, he will tell him what has happened to him. Then, when that friend tries makes it clear to him: "O friend! How lucky you were! You had the direct darçana of the Lord!!" he comes to his senses for a while and says: "Alas! Will I never behold this form again?" Then again he sadly says: "Alas! By the grace of the crown jewels of great and deeply realised devotees I have seen this wonderful form. I am so unfortunate that I was never acquainted with the Lord before even slightly. I suppose that this has happened as the result of some causeless mercy at some time on such an ocean of faults as myself. Alas! By some indescribable luck, this jewel came to my hand— has it now, as the result of some great offense, fallen from my hand again? I am fully ignorant, I cannot understand these things myself at all, I am stunned with bewilderment in such a calamity. Where shall I go, what shall I do? Whom can I ask advice? I feel completely empty, bereft of friends and relatives, like scorched by a forest fire or swallowed by the three worlds! I will leave society for a while and contemplate on this matter in solitude." But even when he is alone the devotee says: "O Lord! O You with a beautiful lotus-face and nectar-like lips! All of Våndävana is filled with Your fragrance! The bees are greedy for the honey that trickles from the garland of forest flowers that hangs from Your neck and hang restless all around it. How can I see You ever again for even a moment? I have relished the nectar of Your sweetness just once! Am I not able to welcome You ever again so that I can relish this wonderful sweetness of Yours?
In this way the devotee laments, rolls around, breathes out deeply, faints, goes mad and becomes immersed in ecstasy when He sees the Lord in all directions. Sometimes he laughs, as if he embraces the Lord, sometimes he dances, sometimes he sings, sometimes he can again not see the Lord, so he laments and weeps. In this way he spends his days performing extraordinary activities without having any cognisance whether he is still in his body or not. In due course of time, he leaves his body without being aware that 'The Lord, who is an ocean of mercy, is now manifest to me after having been worshipped by me. Now He will take me to His own abode to engage me in His direct service." Thus he is blessed.
There’s really nothing sane or logical about this whole experience wouldn’t you say?
Can’t remember why you talked about atheist Vaisnavism but my point was any reader of this site should not be surprised by the idea that Krishna wasn’t a historical person.
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 14, 2022 14:14:43 GMT -6
Like Mahaprabhus ecstatic symptoms consisted of retracting all His bones like a tortoise or bleeding out of His pores. It’s the height of Prem. I’m all for being scholarly but in my estimation the idea of Krishna not being a historical figure is just another hindrance. In the end it doesn’t matter. Have you got Prem? That’s the bottom line for me and I think it’s the true essence of what CV is. It’s not some social movement or intellectual curiosity though seem to see it as such. It’s literally about raising ones consciousness into another world. Debates about historical facts etc are meaningless in that world.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 15, 2022 11:33:54 GMT -6
Like Mahaprabhus ecstatic symptoms consisted of retracting all His bones like a tortoise or bleeding out of His pores. It’s the height of Prem. I’m all for being scholarly but in my estimation the idea of Krishna not being a historical figure is just another hindrance. In the end it doesn’t matter. Have you got Prem? That’s the bottom line for me and I think it’s the true essence of what CV is. It’s not some social movement or intellectual curiosity though seem to see it as such. It’s literally about raising ones consciousness into another world. Debates about historical facts etc are meaningless in that world. Thanks, Avadhutadasji, for posting this and the excerpts from the Madhurya-kadambini. It is always good to back up what one says with good examples. To often we make claims or just statements without any attempt to support them. Your posts have caused me to think hard for the last couple of days. Usually, I am too lazy to do that. What was it that George Bernard Shaw once said: Most people think only once a month. By thinking once a week I became internationally famous. I think the biggest hindrance to the cultivation of Krsna-prema is not history, or scholarship, but religion and not just religion, but a peculiar kind of disease religion helps spread called theism, the belief in an all-powerful, all-knowing, unapproachable something beyond our comprehension. It is impossible to love such a being and I see this as one of the most important messages of CV down through the ages. Krsna does not come as the Universal Form, but as a simple cowherd, approachable, lovable, loving, gentle, and kind (for the most part). He manifests as a man-like being. It is not until we are able to banish that godish idea from our minds that we can begin to learn to love Krsna. If we try to love Krsna because he is god, then we are guilty of loving for some ulterior motive, either because we are commanded to (sometimes in the form of we are meant to love him; it is our nature to love him; these are subtle commands to love him)or because we want something, maybe a little of that godly power or knowledge or protection or freedom from death. I think that what Krsna wants from us is not that sort of love, but love that is free of those kinds calculations. But then we have to ask ourselves: who is that Krsna apart from his godliness? The pictures of Krsna that we are often presented with in the scriptures are anything but lovable, anything but approachable (his killing of Sisupala, for instance, [Bhag. 10.74]and Balarama's killing of Romaharsana [Bhag. 10.78]). They are just more bricks in the wall separating us from other human beings and from the divine itself. Additionally, we have no way to approach him except through his name and for that we have to retool our understanding of names (i.e., stop thinking of names as different from the objects they name). Anyway, I don't see CV as a practice meant to raise one's consciousness into another world. There are not likely to be other worlds outside the vastness of this universe. When we die, we die, consciousness and all. We return to the root substance of the universe and become parts of other beings. The real point of CV as I see it is reached in this world. The cultivation of CV transforms the way we view this world. As we free ourselves from viewing Krsna as a god and learn to see him as the object of our love (Krsna means "the attractive one" from the Sanskrit root krs,कृष्) present in all living beings, we begin to see him everywhere. He is that primordial being, Purusa, with a thousand heads, arms and legs. One of those heads is yours and one is mine. we are all part of the primordial pool of life and will one day return to it. He is present in all living beings as a kalA as the Bhagavata tells us. We learn to love all beings as Krsna, see Krsna reflected everywhere, think of Krsna everywhere and feel at home and at peace surrounded by Krsna to whom we are intimately related as his part. We don't really need for Krsna to exist separately at all. He exists in us and in all living beings. There is nothing to fear and nothing to long for. We already have it all. It is only ignorance and desperation that feeds the appeal to those fantasy texts like the Madhurya-kadambini and the Raga-vartma-candrika. As in most tales of spiritual journey, say for instance, the Conference of the Birds, the journey results in discovering ourselves as the objects of our search, the Simorgh. This is my path, my view. I don't expect anyone to adopt it or even understand it, but it is based on a more realistic understanding of the nature of the world we live in and are inseparable parts thereof. Anyway, thanks for the exchange.  |
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 15, 2022 15:41:20 GMT -6
Radhe Radhe Nitaidasji.
>Your posts have caused me to think hard for the last couple of days.
Wow thank you for the compliment. I have thought a lot about many of the things I've read by you and others on this forum.
I don't think theism is so bad. I don't think atheism is any better. Yogamaya is responsible for ensuring that the sadhaka doesn't think of Krishna as god. Likewise, Yogamaya enables Krishna to forget that we are jivas, small specks of dust compared to Him. I think another name for Yogamaya is Bhakti or Vrnda devi. Without Her blessing one will think that Krishna is god or that there is no god.
Today I was out in the lawn with Jahnavi. She's like 10 months now and crawling around. She found a corn husk in the grass and pulled off some of the husk and handed it to me. It was the greatest thing. I didn't even have to pretend that I was enjoying her handing me some dead piece of plant. The reason for my enjoyment is because I was experiencing love in that moment. This is the feeling that Yogamaya enables Krishna to have towards His devotees. Yogamaya gives Krishna prem to us and Bhakta prem to Krishna. Love is the key to any relation.
I don't believe consciousness to be emergent of matter. I could be wrong and certainly wouldn't spend time trying to debate someone about it. I think consciousness is not really understood by us and as one progresses different levels of reality that are not accessible to us now become accessible. Meaning, I think someone can step into the spiritual world and be aware of it happening. I think stuff like reincarnation etc might be true but it's impersonal, just like the paramatma feature of Bhagavan. Krishna is everywhere, this is true, but where are the cowherd boy with Radhe and Balaram? One has to be in a total state of love and innocence to be there.
Of course all this could be one giant projection of ones mind as you point out. It's certainly possible.
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 15, 2022 17:27:56 GMT -6
śrī-bādarāyaṇir uvāca
bhagavān api tā rātṛīḥ
śāradotphulla-mallikāḥ
vīkṣya rantuṁ manaś cakre
yoga-māyām upāśritaḥ
Sb 10 29 1.
Here’s the verse about yogamaya.
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Post by avadhutadas on Apr 15, 2022 18:01:14 GMT -6
I always enjoyed sharing these verses with devotees who didn’t really understand Gaudiya siddhant.
Lord Kṛṣṇa thought:] “All the universe is filled with the conception of My majesty, but love weakened by that sense of majesty does not satisfy Me.
Text 18: “If one regards Me as the Supreme Lord and himself as a subordinate, I do not become subservient to his love, nor can it control Me. Cc 4:17-18
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Post by kirtaniya on Apr 16, 2022 10:34:49 GMT -6
Nitaidas ji, it's a great idea. I dare to present an enhanced version of it.
I'll do it by commenting on this:
The whole volume of all "one days" is within birth and death. As you say, we already have it all. There is nothing to gain but also there is nothing to keep or to liberate. So there is no any "we" or "I" outside life. When you step outside birth and death you can see the potential of life - bhava and so on, to the exploration of the roots of all the worries. The idea of return to the primordial carries the same inspiring hope for a final refuge that believers have striving for a permanent destination in paradise. It's like to think that all the images are returning somewhere from the screen when the movie ends.
And where is Krsna? Here follows manah siksa. All the worries about Krsna's metaphysical status mask the lack of desire to talk to him, to exchange friendly and intimate expressions with him. You can behave to him as to a living person, you can just listen to him or pay attention to what he’s doing right now, but instead you prefer to have him as an idea. If you are in separation, you can recall those interactions with him. When you falling asleep and waking up you don't mumble some words to him, maybe even mad or random ones. He is indeed approachable, you can communicate with him even more tangibly than with any CS member. But instead you prefer to think of his role in your life. Because the desperate underachiever spirit is hidden in such thoughts. The gopi bid them farewell. <smile of angel>
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