|
|
Post by avadhutadas on May 6, 2022 12:29:13 GMT -6
Meh. I like the CV that’s built on faith and meditative experiences.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 6, 2022 13:08:52 GMT -6
Besides, if spirit really existed and it were able to change matter or cause it to move, it would be detectable by science. Since nothing has been detected by science of that sort, it does not exist. On the other hand, we do see changes in matter affecting consciousness, drugs for instance. Thus, consciousness is dependent on and an epiphenomenon of matter. I am quite satisfied with referring to matter as pradhAna,chief, principal, main, the fundamental reality and Atman, in its earliest meaning, as "breath" rather than self.  |
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 6, 2022 13:27:38 GMT -6
Nitaidasji, I was thinking about your ideas some more and I don’t think you can have them without committing at least guru ninda and thinking the glories of the Holy name to be an exaggeration. I’m under no illusion that you care about such things but I figured I’d mention it for anyone else who is reading. If there is no god as you say then Gurudev is nothing special and the holy name is just a way to get some material enjoyment or something. Obviously your ideas are unique to you and have no relation to CV at this point. Every Acarya and Goswami has taught about the offenses to the holy name. It’s a core tenant of CV and other Vaisnava sects. You are free to pick and choose what you think Mahaprabhu actually taught or believed of course. Avadhutadasji, there is no aparadha involved here. One is not obliged to agree with one's gurudev on everything. My gurudev was a bhajananandi and excelled at that. He was not very learned in teaching and actually cared very little about it. I am not disrespecting him by thinking about the teaching of the tradition. If the teachers of the tradition were genuine and really concerned with the truth, they would welcome new ideas based on the best understandings of the day. They certainly framed their teaching on the best available ideas of their time. Sri Jiva borrows heavily from Sankaracarya and from other Advaitin philosophers like Vacaspati Misra and Sridhara Svamin. In fact, one could argue that I am interested in updating the philosophy to match our latest and best understanding of the nature of the universe and our place in it. It is those who take everything for granted and hardly ever think about our tradition's philosophy, or who spread patently false ideas in the name of our philosophy, who are committing guruninda and other namaparadhas. |
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 6, 2022 13:29:14 GMT -6
Meh. I like the CV that’s built on faith and meditative experiences. Well, good for you. Sweet dreams, mon ami. |
|
|
|
Post by avadhutadas on May 6, 2022 15:50:10 GMT -6
Nitaidasji, I was thinking about your ideas some more and I don’t think you can have them without committing at least guru ninda and thinking the glories of the Holy name to be an exaggeration. I’m under no illusion that you care about such things but I figured I’d mention it for anyone else who is reading. If there is no god as you say then Gurudev is nothing special and the holy name is just a way to get some material enjoyment or something. Obviously your ideas are unique to you and have no relation to CV at this point. Every Acarya and Goswami has taught about the offenses to the holy name. It’s a core tenant of CV and other Vaisnava sects. You are free to pick and choose what you think Mahaprabhu actually taught or believed of course. Avadhutadasji, there is no aparadha involved here. One is not obliged to agree with one's gurudev on everything. My gurudev was a bhajananandi and excelled at that. He was not very learned in teaching and actually cared very little about it. I am not disrespecting him by thinking about the teaching of the tradition. If the teachers of the tradition were genuine and really concerned with the truth, they would welcome new ideas based on the best understandings of the day. They certainly framed their teaching on the best available ideas of their time. Sri Jiva borrows heavily from Sankaracarya and from other Advaitin philosophers like Vacaspati Misra and Sridhara Svamin. In fact, one could argue that I am interested in updating the philosophy to match our latest and best understanding of the nature of the universe and our place in it. It is those who take everything for granted and hardly ever think about our tradition's philosophy, or who spread patently false ideas in the name of our philosophy, who are committing guruninda and other namaparadhas. My point is that Sri Guru is Krishna’s second body. The manifestation of Krishna’s krpa. But if you have decided that Krishna is imaginary then where does that leave ones guru? The same principle applies to the glories of the holy name. The holy name has the power to deliver one from the material world to the spiritual world. But now you are saying there is no such thing as spirit, therefore the promises of the holy name are either an exaggeration or fabrication according to you. I don’t believe CV needs to be post modernized in the fashion that you are trying to do. If you start pulling the rug out from the six goswamis then what’s the point of following this tradition anyway? |
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 6, 2022 18:17:06 GMT -6
Avadhutadasji, there is no aparadha involved here. One is not obliged to agree with one's gurudev on everything. My gurudev was a bhajananandi and excelled at that. He was not very learned in teaching and actually cared very little about it. I am not disrespecting him by thinking about the teaching of the tradition. If the teachers of the tradition were genuine and really concerned with the truth, they would welcome new ideas based on the best understandings of the day. They certainly framed their teaching on the best available ideas of their time. Sri Jiva borrows heavily from Sankaracarya and from other Advaitin philosophers like Vacaspati Misra and Sridhara Svamin. In fact, one could argue that I am interested in updating the philosophy to match our latest and best understanding of the nature of the universe and our place in it. It is those who take everything for granted and hardly ever think about our tradition's philosophy, or who spread patently false ideas in the name of our philosophy, who are committing guruninda and other namaparadhas. My point is that Sri Guru is Krishna’s second body. The manifestation of Krishna’s krpa. But if you have decided that Krishna is imaginary then where does that leave ones guru? The same principle applies to the glories of the holy name. The holy name has the power to deliver one from the material world to the spiritual world. But now you are saying there is no such thing as spirit, therefore the promises of the holy name are either an exaggeration or fabrication according to you. I don’t believe CV needs to be post modernized in the fashion that you are trying to do. If you start pulling the rug out from the six goswamis then what’s the point of following this tradition anyway? I think you are missing my point. So what if Krsna is imaginary. There are plenty of imaginary things that have real and powerful effects. The United States is an imaginary idea and look at how people love it and are willing to die for it. Besides, the point is not to go to some imaginary, spiritual world, not for real bhaktas anyway. Real bhaktas want Krsna-prema. That is the real and lasting effect of guru-krpa and harinama japa and kirtan. That is experienced in this world and profoundly influences the way we see the world and interact with it. We see Krsna everywhere and experience his presence with each breath. That is the real goal, not some trip to fantasy island. That is the predominant teaching of Sri Caitanya. That is what he experienced. He didn't make a big deal about going to some spiritual world after death or becoming a manjari or gopa or any of that stuff. We see the goal in his life. The rest is unknown. I am not pulling the rug out from under anybody except the dufuses who have misrepresented CV in modern times, the ones who promised folks like you a place in paradise. The Goswamins were learned and thoughtful men. If they were alive today they would be doing something like I am trying to do, only much better than me. I am only half-educated. It may not be apparent to you yet, but CV is a dead tradition. A tradition survives on the strength of each generation. In this generation there are nothing but backwards looking sentimentalists. I don't see anyone who has the stature of a goswamin today, someone with broad enough shoulders to carry the tradition forward to the next generation. So, it will sputter out and die. No one will get Krsna-preman. Everyone will still be looking for that boat to paradise island. Well, I suppose, as everybody knows, that's the way it goes. (to quote Leonard Cohen)  |
|
|
|
Post by kirtaniya on May 7, 2022 1:30:42 GMT -6
Yes, CV should be "sane". ^^ We are free to breath our own CV because that is what Mahaprabhu did. The principle of raganuga emphasizes how vaidhas fear too much freedom, seeing it as anarchy. The essence of this fear is the discomfort of acintya, uncertainty.
It is rather naive to think that the followers of Mahaprabhu are bound to hold the same views. Someone will be offended by the idea that Krsna is an idea. For someone else it is clear that any denotation, any individual, is an idea.
Even the essence of the practice can be understood in completely different ways. The very essence of Mahaprabhu's practice is to give up rational thinking. And then this essence contains a goal that is achieved instantly. As if at every moment the same work is being done of a gardener who has planted a seed and does not check it by pulling it from the ground.
You don't need to change existing views to different ones at all. It's about letting go of clinging to any views. You can stick to the views you have formed until you discover something for yourself that these views do not cover. Until you see for yourself the rudeness and fallacy of these views, there is no point in looking for evidence of their validity or inconsistency.
Matter and consciousness are connected. Nama-rupa is a single space of denotations in the sphere of perception.
Matter is form. Formation. Whatever matters.
But consciousness can rely on form, and also it can rely on what is beyond form.
Though it is much more important for you that your consciousness is based on feelings. Therefore, you were born in kamaloka and not in the realm of effulgence or in the heaven, before the formation of forms. In order to explore the realm above feelings, you must consider it. Otherwise authority, a model and an approach that does not go beyond sensuality will be important to you. The relish of the form (which is related to sensuality of Kamadev) by Mahaprabhu goes beyond sensual world. This is the meaning of Kama-gayatri.
The mind, attached to rationalizations, first of all misses the unconditional, clinging to the formalities conditioned by rational thinking, thereby not penetrating into the conditioning of the body, form, feeling, space, consciousness, aspiration and the aspirated, each time remaining in clinging to the illusion of something aspirating, atman. There must be something influential, responsible for the fact that at the moment you have a stuffy nose, plus a compassionate attitude to dreamy or to offensive posts, plus a slight feeling of hunger, plus something else. That is, at the moment you are a set of constantly changing factors, and this is not a concept at all, but quite a life. And then this something, the symbol, is assigned for so many - the mind settles down in the sweet dream of final certainty.
Without being freed from the habit of excretion (reduction), it is impossible to know the mutual conditioning of nama-rupa.
Without going beyond the striving for designation (thinking), it is impossible to know the causality of perception.
|
|
|
|
Post by meeno8 on May 7, 2022 7:42:22 GMT -6
The caduseus is still the symbol used by the medical scientists. Its significance is based on yoga and the endocrine system (the glands being tied to each of those cakras). Even today the pineal gland remains a mystery to medical science, but its purpose has been well known to yogis and the mystery schools dating back to the builders of the pyramids in Egypt.
Re: Matter and energy (yes that E in Einstein's equation), they are clearly not independent of one another. I am currently reading through a very interesting book on thermodynamics: "Einstein's Fridge: How the Difference Between Hot and Cold Explains the Universe". A lot of our modern technology stems from discoveries in thermodynamics. Without those, Einstein may have never proved the existence of molecules, and he was originally ridiculed by the scientific orthodoxy for even proposing that he would do just that. The ancient Greeks postulated the existence of atoms, but in terms of what those basic building blocks of matter really are, our current understanding is that they are not related to how we perceive objects on the macro scale. Sure, we had those models in high school chemistry class of little wooden balls representing electrons and protons, but that was just to provide the basic understanding of how the electrons are in shells around the nucleus. We understand spin, but without instruments that extend our five senses, i.e. particle accelerators and the detectors to discover the myriad of sub-atomic particles, we would not have that glimpse into those basic building blocks of atoms, quarks, Higgs-Boson, et al. The frontiers of particle physics keep expanding our knowledge with each new decade.
How does acupuncture work? It does not involve molecules like drugs. Yet, scientifically (no hucksters involved), when the points for vision were stimulated with needles, the part at the rear of the brain in the subjects lit up on scans, the same way as when a bright light was shined at them. Of what is that proof? The meridians in Chinese medicine, and those points are theoretically there involving those channels of whatever (energy?), have been around for centuries at the very least.
Science is in flux, and always has been, otherwise we could not really call it science, now could we? Its purpose is not to allow us to eventually know everything there is to know about the universe. The evidence that is established periodically gets overturned by yet newer evidence. Hence the fallacy of evidence based truths. Take court cases in the US. Despite the fact the that the only reliable evidence in murder cases is DNA evidence (fingerprints? bogus and very unreliable), our stodgy old justices are still locked in by precedence in prior decisions based on that type of spurious 'evidence'. Science be 'damned' in the face to laws. How many years will it take until DNA evidence is the only evidence admissible in court, and keep in mind that first-hand witness testimony is the least reliable?
|
|
|
|
Post by meeno8 on May 7, 2022 7:51:19 GMT -6
Without a brain, how could we be conscious? A current theme in sci-fi is people uploading their consciousness into computers (or a cloud, which is just a large number of computer servers networked together). That may not be so far fetched, considering with electronic links to the brain allowing people with prosthetic arms sensing what they touch and being able to pick delicate objects up without crushing them. What is the difference between electrical impulses in our carbon based brains and the ones in silicon base brains, like the ones in our smart phones and laptop computers?
If we follow Nitai Mahashoy's logic, then it is theoretically possible for silicon based 'life' to exist, not just our carbon based life. And what really is the definition of life? That keeps changing over time. Viruses used to be considered not real life, yet the COVID-19 SARS2 virus keeps mutating into new variants. In the sense that they do not live outside of hosts, how do they differ from other types of parasites, such as tapeworms or the parasite carried by mosquitos that causes malaria? Can our AI software someday pass the Turing test, which has been the gold standard for decades to distinguish that type of intelligence from human intelligence. Something along those lines was used in the original Blade Runner film to ferret out the replicants living among the humans.
Hollywood script writers and the holes in their many story lines (but I find those an extra 'feature', and makes the scripts more entertaining when they jump out at me) not withstanding, I think these concepts bear pondering.
OK, I am off my soap box, at least for now. Discuss amongst yourselves...
|
|
|
|
Post by kirtaniya on May 8, 2022 13:45:34 GMT -6
At first, you take it for granted, the idea of a single distinct entity, the owner. The idea of the brain supports this. Then you find out, this idea is connected with the desire to live. Then you can turn the idea upside down: is it necessarily so? Consciousness is due to brain, but the brain is due to consciousness. Not mystical consciousnesses, not another entity, integrality, but simply differences. And then you can observe how the idea is formed, in excellent details, with more and more penetration, detalization. You can see the arbitrariness of entities, of liveliness.
Personality is confined by birth and death. But birth has a reason - karma. Realizing inclinations, habits, affection of karma, one can subdue them. After all, karma is not without reason. Drives arise with the condition of a pleasant, unpleasant and uninteresting in perception. Thus, with detecting the conditionality of the occurrences, mystical ideas of possession and subordination are vanished and the universal wisdom of the insight of four truths is clarified.
With the knowledge that not a single being has a moment before which there would be no being, the noncreation of all beings becomes obvious. There is no owner, there is no manager, there is no something accepting a burden and release. Having mastered this view, mystification is dispelled and it becomes clear that circumstances are not important for curbing karma. The cessation is found independent of effort.
Everything born is subject to death. Everything that arises vanishes. Without clinging to sensual pleasures, for rules and rituals, for ideas and for oneself, death is defeated. With the cessation of thirst and clinging, the holy life ends, there will be no more births and deaths. So death is defeated.
Attempts to save life are always in vain. Those ignorant attempts bring about more and more suffering. More and more pain and torment. More and more creatures are dipped into hells, supporting a decrepit body and a falling apart intelligence.
As soon as the essence of birth is visible, the thirst for extending life fades away. This does not mean that the desire for death is growing. Death occurs as usual. But it is already clear that neither birth nor death affect the serene clarity of the mind.
Eternal bodies are unborn. That is, these are the bodies of cessation, the body of liberation. They do not have certainty, do not have exposure, they are not even distinguishable either between themselves or with anything else, but the processes of liberation and cessation have distinguishable forms and signs.
That which has no birth is not subject to death, but it cannot be spared from death. A-priory.
The nature of the mind is the nature of born and unborn.
With clinging and obligation the three aspects arise:
Attractive image (thirst), the attracted (aggregates of clinging) and attraction (bhava).
With the cessation of clinging and obligation, the attractive, the attracted and the attraction cease. This is the unborn, this is immortal.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on May 10, 2022 14:13:23 GMT -6
I feel like I should walk back some of my previous statements somewhat. I don't really think that CV is dead yet, but I do feel it is a live possibility. I am encouraged by some of the young members of the tradition like Eduardo, Nityananda Das, Jiva, and others who want to know the tradition genuinely and apart from the distortions of IGM. They are not guru-nindis in that they recognize the importance of being duly initiated by actual members of the tradition and are suspicious of the misrepresentations of it by IGM. In other words, there is hope that the tradition will continue on. It does have to adjust to the modern world. We know longer live in 15th cent. India, nor would we want to. Life was short and brutal. Only a few who were able to separate themselves from society and politics managed to live long.
I think it is insane for a religious tradition to deny science. That tradition will surely lose. Science is a powerful source of valid knowledge about the world that trumps (sorry to use that word) any and all "religious" source of knowledge. Every scripture is wrong on most subjects (creation, destruction, the periods of time, the size and organization of the world, etc. etc.) Nevertheless, there is wisdom in the texts that applies to how one can best live one's brief life and make the most of one's life. I encounter that aspect of the Bhagavata often in my current translation project. There are also absurdities, but those can be marveled over and dismissed.
It is incorrect to say that I have dismissed "spirit." I think that we are clearly all surrounded by bubbles of consciousness that fashion, frame, shape, and color our worlds. These bubbles of consciousness are our spirits and are completely dependent on our bodies. They are like fields generated by our bodies. When the body dies so do those spirit-fields. It is within these spirits that we have an opportunity to live and love and to experience the ecstasies of Krsna preman that Mahaprabhu experienced. He is in that sense the model for how we are to lead our lives here and now and for what we can experience in our lives. After death we are gone, but, if we follow Mahaprabhu's example, we will have lived beautiful lives, models in our own right for those who follow us. Now as a reasonable person, I will admit that I could be wrong. But, all of the visions of the afterlife that we encounter in our literature seem rather absurd to me. They seem just like something someone stuck in this world might dream up as they navigate their ways through, fear, longing, suffering, and disappointment. Besides the texts are clearly to be practiced in this life as powerful way to focus our minds on Krsna and Radhika, "remembering" them being the best way to cultivate Krsna-preman before death desolves us back into the pradhAna. I am sorry if some of you are troubled by my vision of our situation. But the alternative is clearly no different from dangling a carrot in front of a mule. We have to detach ourselves from those expectations and selfish strivings if we are to become atmarama.
And again, I must say, I may be wrong. But, I hope I am not.
|
|
|
|
Post by meeno8 on May 11, 2022 15:00:36 GMT -6
I will reference Dawkins without actually citing his book The Selfish Gene.
It is the gene, and not the organism, that has relative immortality. If we can make the assumption that the cell has its own level of consciousness, being essentially alive as is the entire multi-cellular organism, then the chromosomes involved in cellular division, which in turn harbor the genes with the DNA double helix molecules, are the driver rather than the entire organism. Here is the question: Does the organism hijack genes, or do they hijack the organism?
It is not likely that science can ever find a definitive answer to the origin of terrestrial life. Indeed, did it even originate on this planet, or did it arrive via chunks of of rock that struck the earth?
We categorize multi-cellular life into the 2 kingdoms of plant and animal. But what about the mineral kingdom? Crystals grow as though they are actually alive. Is there such a thing as 'dead' matter in the first place? Science tells us that is not the case. How would we have the nuclear weapons without the intense energy that is released by fission. And there is the energy released by fusion (as it is in the sun).
In addition to the 3 states of matter, e.g. solid, liquid, gas, there is the state of plasma. How does that state of plasma tie in with Nitai Mahashoy's pradhAna. Only he can comment on that. Or maybe the pradhAna is pure energy. Why does it have to be matter?
|
|
|
|
Post by meeno8 on May 16, 2022 16:04:59 GMT -6
Perhaps unlike some of us here (I can only speak for myself) Shree Nitai Mahashoy has not experienced the noumenal outside of the phenomenal. Whatever label you want to put on those subjective experiences that manifest in objective reality (miracles, supernatural, et al), science is ill equipped to pigeonhole those. Our five senses send signals to our brains, but a sense like intuition is not dependent on those channels, nor are other perceptions, or so it would seem, except when they are dependent on the same.
|
|
|
|
Post by meeno8 on May 19, 2022 14:11:02 GMT -6
Similar to mysticism, science historically has attempted to unravel the mysteries of the universe. Philosophers still grapple with problems like time and space. For all intents and purposes those are just mental constructs, and where is their independent reality outside of our minds? Our species since ancient times has pondered the nature of existence and our place in the universe. The meaning of life according to Monty Python: www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvkAnd so forth and so on, ad infinitum. |
|
|
|
Post by meeno8 on May 19, 2022 14:57:07 GMT -6
If you all would indulge me in tooting my own horn:
I have a degree in Philosophy of Science, and with 36 years in the field of software engineering the respect of my peers as a computer scientist. Hence, I have those credentials to speak with some measure of authority on science and the empirical method. If others here have similar credentials, they would also have some measure of authority in the respect. Otherwise, they may just lie between being a dilettante and possessing a modest amount of knowledge.
An’ I say, “Aw come on now
You must know about my debutante”
An’ she says, “Your debutante just knows what you need
But I know what you want”
Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again
WRITTEN BY: BOB DYLAN
Oh, the ragman draws circles
Up and down the block
I’d ask him what the matter was
But I know that he don’t talk
And the ladies treat me kindly
And furnish me with tape
But deep inside my heart
I know I can’t escape
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
Well, Shakespeare, he’s in the alley
With his pointed shoes and his bells
Speaking to some French girl
Who says she knows me well
And I would send a message
To find out if she’s talked
But the post office has been stolen
And the mailbox is locked
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
Mona tried to tell me
To stay away from the train line
She said that all the railroad men
Just drink up your blood like wine
An’ I said, “Oh, I didn’t know that
But then again, there’s only one I’ve met
An’ he just smoked my eyelids
An’ punched my cigarette”
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
Grandpa died last week
And now he’s buried in the rocks
But everybody still talks about
How badly they were shocked
But me, I expected it to happen
I knew he’d lost control
When he built a fire on Main Street
And shot it full of holes
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
Now the senator came down here
Showing ev’ryone his gun
Handing out free tickets
To the wedding of his son
An’ me, I nearly got busted
An’ wouldn’t it be my luck
To get caught without a ticket
And be discovered beneath a truck
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
Now the preacher looked so baffled
When I asked him why he dressed
With twenty pounds of headlines
Stapled to his chest
But he cursed me when I proved it to him
Then I whispered, “Not even you can hide
You see, you’re just like me
I hope you’re satisfied”
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
Now the rainman gave me two cures
Then he said, “Jump right in”
The one was Texas medicine
The other was just railroad gin
An’ like a fool I mixed them
An’ it strangled up my mind
An’ now people just get uglier
An’ I have no sense of time
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
When Ruthie says come see her
In her honky-tonk lagoon
Where I can watch her waltz for free
’Neath her Panamanian moon
An’ I say, “Aw come on now
You must know about my debutante”
An’ she says, “Your debutante just knows what you need
But I know what you want”
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
Now the bricks lay on Grand Street
Where the neon madmen climb
They all fall there so perfectly
It all seems so well timed
An’ here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through all these things twice
Oh, Mama, can this really be the end
To be stuck inside of Mobile
With the Memphis blues again
|
|
