Fundamentalism in GV...

[subala]

After learning that some fundamentalist christians, in Texas, are holding a Burn-The-Koran day in memory of the victims of 9/11, and reading the comments about Chandan Goswami, I got to thinking about fundamentalism and extremism in GV.

Would you agreee it exists? If you do I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the issue...

[JD33]

Hi Subala. I can only relate my personal experience but kindly remember I was very sheltered. I lived with a group of Sadhus who were mostly soft-hearted and very accommidating to everyone who came to us, especially seeing it in those who came to stay with us for any period of time, which included a Western Iskon guy and an Indian Gaudiya Math guy. Also including tens of Brajvasis who cam at different times to see my Blessed Gurudev and do tirtha.

I see you want to hear from people who see it exists, but feel moved to say that with the True Sadhus of CV Tradition it exists in a minimal way - in the sense that we know we are involved in a very specialized sadhana with a specific and accomplishable goal, different than many other Traditions and these Sadhus live in an intended sheltered community that can work quite well for them. Kindly excuse my overall ignorance of my Tradition and the possibility I am not addressing this threads concern to begin with.

[subala]

Hi jd33...

Thanks for your honest reply. I agree that true sadhus are not fundamentalists. It was reading about the lives of such incredible people that gave me the desire to take up this process.

Fundamentalism is something that I find interesting as it is in direct opposition to the goals of love that religions speak of, and it often based in fear. I've tried to understand why people will kill, torture, injure themselves ,and others emotionally or physically in the name of their religion. I don't get it at all.

GV, being a religion, has its fundamentalists too, but thankfully we have soft hearted sadhus to remind us of the real true nature of Bhakti.

[JD33]

Yes, I agree...... it is very sad. This planet it seems is a place to work out karma. It is sadder to me though that although there are living Saints and Sadhus of CV, many have passed away.... It is a difficult life here, at times, without them!

[maasikdharma]

No, fundamentalism or fanaticism is not intrinsic to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, however there are individual vaishnavas who may display these tendencies.

One has to take into account the culture and background any particular vaishnava is coming from to understand their behaviour/views.

Because India has not yet had a major, organized Feminist movement like many Western countries, it is very common to come across backwards views in regards to women, even amongst vaishnavas, and perhaps especially amongst vaishnavas, because the vaishnava faiths of India tend to attract the "traditional" type of personality.

You see this especially played out amongst those in a family setting where gender roles and duties are highly defined.

You see it somewhat less amongst the renunciates.

Sometimes in Gaudiya Vaishnava literature a vaishnava will express their ekantik bhava towards Mahaprabhu and thus downplay or even outright question the value of other avatars of Krishna, as we see often in the poetry and prose of Sri Prabhodananda Saraswati. This however would not qualify as "fundamentalism" the way we know it, but rather extreme expressions of their ekantik bhava towards their isht.

[maasikdharma]

An example of "fundantamentalism in GV" is found in Vrindavan Mahimamritam by Sripad Prabhodananda Saraswati:

Do those who recount the flaws of the residents of Vrindavan, whether they are mobile or still, not realize that they cut me into a hundred pieces, as if with sharpened knives and arrows? If one should condemn even the tiniest blade of grass in this beloved abode of the Supreme Lord, there is no one, no one who could lift him out of the darkest reaches of hell. (1.13)


However, this is an anubhuti of his extreme dham-nishta and dham-sneha. His writings are often laced with such type of bhavuk "fundamentalism".

[Nitaidas]

Oct 24, 2010 21:07:31 GMT -6 maasikdharma said:

An example of "fundantamentalism in GV" is found in Vrindavan Mahimamritam by Sripad Prabhodananda Saraswati:

Do those who recount the flaws of the residents of Vrindavan, whether they are mobile or still, not realize that they cut me into a hundred pieces, as if with sharpened knives and arrows? If one should condemn even the tiniest blade of grass in this beloved abode of the Supreme Lord, there is no one, no one who could lift him out of the darkest reaches of hell. (1.13)


However, this is an anubhuti of his extreme dham-nishta and dham-sneha. His writings are often laced with such type of bhavuk "fundamentalism".

Yes. Wouldn't it have been grander, though, if he had said that about all living beings? Isn't the whole world the beloved abode of the Supreme Lord? The second part is simply a lie in any calculus of salvation. Well, it's hyperbole. Not to be taken seriously. Still, there must have been some for whom this text brought tears to their eyes, made their hair stand on end, etc. etc. It is really kind of sad. Feeling ecstatic joy at the misfortune of others. This is the sort of stuff the whole Book of Revelations is made of.

[maasikdharma]

Special affection for the Dham, wanting to reside there, and in fact residing there is one of the 9 characteristics of bhav-bhakti. Obviously Sripad's writings are not general or directed at general persons - they are written for others who share Braj-dham-priti, or those interested in it. The point here is not about anyone going to hell, but rather to emphasize the glory of the region where Sri Jugal Kishore performed their most intimate lilas.

It's verses like this one that instilled in me a greed to go to Braj in the first place. He is one of my favorite Vaishnava authors, particularly because of his intense ekantik bhav.

I can only hope to one day in some lifetime get the kripa-kataksha of such rasik parikaras of Sri Gora and Sri Jugal.

[Nitaidas]

Oct 25, 2010 13:32:52 GMT -6 maasikdharma said:

Special affection for the Dham, wanting to reside there, and in fact residing there is one of the 9 characteristics of bhav-bhakti. Obviously Sripad's writings are not general or directed at general persons - they are written for others who share Braj-dham-priti, or those interested in it. The point here is not about anyone going to hell, but rather to emphasize the glory of the region where Sri Jugal Kishore performed their most intimate lilas.

It's verses like this one that instilled in me a greed to go to Braj in the first place. He is one of my favorite Vaishnava authors, particularly because of his intense ekantik bhav.

I can only hope to one day in some lifetime get the kripa-kataksha of such rasik parikaras of Sri Gora and Sri Jugal.

I don't think it is obvious at all. The verse was directed at someone who was being critical of the Vrajavasis. That does not sound like someone with Vraja-dhama-priti. I think it is time we reached beyond our parochialism and desired to make the whole world into Vraja-dhama.

How did that greed for Vraja work out for you? Don't get me wrong. I love Vraja too and have many fond memories of my stay there. But, I think it is time to recognize that we no longer live in the 16th century. We don't even live in the 1970s or 80s. It is time to grow up and recognize that Vraja is a fiction created by those great fiction writers Sri Rupa and Sanatana. Vraja is actually all around us and with the proper mindset and vision we can see it right in front of us.

[maasikdharma]

"How did that greed for Vraja work out for you?"

It worked out awesomely, thankyou!

I interpret Sripad's admonishment to be for aspiring sadhaks such as myself, who desire to have inner darshan of Sri Jugal's Lila in Braj, yet at the same time see the manifestion of the Braj region in the state of Uttar Pradesh that is manifest before my material eyes and which indeed has faults or perhaps I should say "issues" to be more pc.

One can get bogged down with those "issues" and spend one's time analysing and criticising them, rather than doing bhajan. So his admonishment here is a reminder to people like me, who desire Dham-priti yet see the issues Uttar Pradesh is plagued with.

Regarding your opinion that Sri Rupa and others like the author of Vrindavan Mahimamrtam are "fiction writers" who write about a "fictional place" - is this what your Gurudeva taught you?

I'm not asking that in a facetious way, I am truly curious because I have never come across that approach before from a Vaishnava.

Obviously Radha Krishna, their Lila, the significance of their Dhams, etc cannot be "proven" in a scientific laboratory, however meditation on and sentiments for the same is what we are asked to cultivate in our bhajan practice.

There would be no meaning to pritis tad vasati sthale if it simply meant priti for the entire Earth planet, which is also a good thing to have, however there is something unique about Braj, Navadweep and Puri that continues to draw Vaishnavas to them.

I understand the need to make the entire planet like a Braj, however we don't need to make the Braj region in India insignificant in order to do so.

I also don't see the point of doing bhajan to cultivate an inner world where a milkmaid and her flute playing boyfriend are the objects of devotion if at the same time one is nursing thoughts that it's all a fiction.

How could that be reconciled?

This is precisely why I've not been able to come up with a reason why Radha Krishna Bhakti would be meaningful to atheists. Sure, Radha Krishna need not be seen as "God", we know it's not beneficial for raga-bhakti to see them in that way, but what would impel an atheist to want to spend so much time reading about them, singing about them, meditating on them and otherwise performing their aradhana?

What would impel an atheist to seek out Vaishnava sanga? Take diksha? Take bhajan siksha?

These are some questions worth exploring since the topic of "atheistic Caitanya Vaishnavism" came up elsewhere.

[Nitaidas]

Oct 25, 2010 15:48:13 GMT -6 maasikdharma said:

"How did that greed for Vraja work out for you?"

It worked out awesomely, thankyou!

I interpret Sripad's admonishment to be for aspiring sadhaks such as myself, who desire to have inner darshan of Sri Jugal's Lila in Braj, yet at the same time see the manifestion of the Braj region in the state of Uttar Pradesh that is manifest before my material eyes and which indeed has faults or perhaps I should say "issues" to be more pc.

One can get bogged down with those "issues" and spend one's time analysing and criticising them, rather than doing bhajan. So his admonishment here is a reminder to people like me, who desire Dham-priti yet see the issues Uttar Pradesh is plagued with.

Regarding your opinion that Sri Rupa and others like the author of Vrindavan Mahimamrtam are "fiction writers" who write about a "fictional place" - is this what your Gurudeva taught you?

I'm not asking that in a facetious way, I am truly curious because I have never come across that approach before from a Vaishnava.

Obviously Radha Krishna, their Lila, the significance of their Dhams, etc cannot be "proven" in a scientific laboratory, however meditation on and sentiments for the same is what we are asked to cultivate in our bhajan practice.

There would be no meaning to pritis tad vasati sthale if it simply meant priti for the entire Earth planet, which is also a good thing to have, however there is something unique about Braj, Navadweep and Puri that continues to draw Vaishnavas to them.

I understand the need to make the entire planet like a Braj, however we don't need to make the Braj region in India insignificant in order to do so.

I also don't see the point of doing bhajan to cultivate an inner world where a milkmaid and her flute playing boyfriend are the objects of devotion if at the same time one is nursing thoughts that it's all a fiction.

How could that be reconciled?

This is precisely why I've not been able to come up with a reason why Radha Krishna Bhakti would be meaningful to atheists. Sure, Radha Krishna need not be seen as "God", we know it's not beneficial for raga-bhakti to see them in that way, but what would impel an atheist to want to spend so much time reading about them, singing about them, meditating on them and otherwise performing their aradhana?

What would impel an atheist to seek out Vaishnava sanga? Take diksha? Take bhajan siksha?

These are some questions worth exploring since the topic of "atheistic Caitanya Vaishnavism" came up elsewhere.

No, of course Baba didn't teach me these things in any physical or verbal sense. He wasn't sophisticated enough to. His life was much simpler. He hardly knew how big the universe really is. He knew how to develop love for Krishna in the world that he knew and that was all that was important to him. Anyway, though he never gave me such instructions in so many words, he still teaches me as I study and think about and practice these texts. It is called the caittya-guru, a connection all initiates have with the guru. We are in a very different world now. We've all been touched by the vastness and coldness of inter-stellar space. If you think you still live in that older world, you are deluding yourself.

As I have struggled with these texts and their implications and with sadhana and its implications, I have come to realize we are dealing with fictions here. R and K never really lived in that place. Nor did any of the Bhagavata stories really occur. Nor was it even written by Vyasa or any of that. It is all fictional. It is all a prompt for meditation. But fictional is different from false. That is not what I am saying. The fiction of Vraja has at least the sort of truth that any good, profound fiction does and more. We reach an emotional depth even though the stories are not true in the sense that they really happened in time and space. It doesn't really matter whether they did or did not happen. And science can prove, I am pretty sure, that they didn't. Nevertheless, one can still cultivate Krsna-prema by practicing the sadhana and filling one's mind with the stories. Krsna-prema is good in and of itself. It is not for some other benefit that one cultivates Krsna prema. And it does not really require that there actually be a Krsna. If fact, it may even be better if there is not a Krsna and Radha.

One can make up all kinds of reasons for cultivating Krsna-prema. It makes one a better person. It makes one a happier person. It brings liberation. etc. etc. But none of these are good reasons for cultivating Krsna-prema. There should be no reason for cultivating it if one is truly ahaituka. Atheism is good for reaching that state from which one can really love Krsna. It strips away all the nonsense that has accrued in the tradition, all the bullshit. It leaves one naked, defenseless and completely vulnerable. Only in that condition can one really love Krsna. All the rest is self-love. One might say that given the world we live in, the atheist is the only true candidate for Krsna-prema. An atheist who does bhajan is the only one who stands a chance of developing Krsna-prema and with Krsna-prema it doesn't matter whether Krsna exists or not.

[gerard]

1.
Nitaidas-ji: "I think it is time we reached beyond our parochialism and desired to make the whole world into Vraja-dhama."
Why not extend that thought to your "vastness and coldness of inter-stellar space"?
The dance of Radha and Krishna might be the act of creation of all universes... The universes as dust particles whirling about Their feet.


2.
How can you love somebody if you don't believe this somebody exists? Isn't that somewhat like loving your husband without having a husband?

[Nitaidas]

Oct 26, 2010 7:46:22 GMT -6 gerard said:

1.
Nitaidas-ji: "I think it is time we reached beyond our parochialism and desired to make the whole world into Vraja-dhama."
Why not extend that thought to your "vastness and coldness of inter-stellar space"?
The dance of Radha and Krishna might be the act of creation of all universes... The universes as dust particles whirling about Their feet.


2.
How can you love somebody if you don't believe this somebody exists? Isn't that somewhat like loving your husband without having a husband?

Hi Gerardji. Good to see you again. I was expecting a reply from masikadharma so that the discussion could continue. She has so far not responded. Instead, I am glad you have taken it up and as usual you raise some good points. It is a discussion that should go on because I think it will lead us closer to the truth of our existential situation, even though some, I am sure, are uncomfortable with it. I don't have any prefabricated answers. I am thinking about these things as they come up and am ready to risk suggesting an answer even if it does not seem popular or pleasing.

In response to your first question I would say that I am completely happy to extend the idea so that the coldness and vastness of inter-stellar space is also a part of Vraja. That is really what I meant by whole world. I don't know if I would wax so poetically about it as their dance as you have, but I don't believe that one has to limit one's prItistadvasati to those small geographical spaces traditionally recognized as his dhamas. There are numerous reasons for this, some scriptural and some scientific. One might point to that old passage from "revelation" as a scriptural support for the idea IzA vAsaym idam sarvam. "This whole world, everything, is inhabited by the Lord." So love for his abode is love for the whole cosmos. Moreover, Mahaprabhu himself has given us an example of how we are to relate to Vraja. Didn't he throw himself into the ocean at Puri thinking it was the Yamuna. Did it make a difference to him that it wasn't the Yamuna? I think this makes it clear that love for the Dhama extends way beyond the geographical limitations of Vraja. And it is in fact the manifestations of Vraja in Bengal and Orissa that make those places into dhamas.

Scientifically speaking the new physics makes it clear that because of the non-local nature of reality, I am in Vraja now and Vraja surrounds me. This is because of the non-local nature of the atoms that compose me and that compose the physical aspects of Vraja. In short, sitting here in northeastern Missouri I am also in Vraja. Here in front of my house is a kalpa-taru and there are several Govardhanas and Manasa-sarovaras scattered about the countryside close by. It is only my lack of vision that makes me mistake them for other things.

As for loving someone who does not exist, yes, loving Krsna is exactly like that. Loving Krsna is not like loving one's husband or wife. One can actually touch and see and speak with one's wife. But one cannot do that with Krsna. We learn to love him by hearing about him. This is where the fictions created by the authors of the Bhagavata and the Goswamis and others become so important. Don't underestimate fiction. Fiction is powerful and can invoke powerful emotions in its partakers. Krsna's fictions are especially attractive and this is where I think even an atheist will be attracted to Krsna's narratives. One can ignore all the theistic jibberish and still find Krsna sweet and attractive. In fact, I would argue that one has to ignore all the theistic malarchy in order to find Krsna sweet and attractive. Anyway, if you really think about how we fall in love with others, you will see that it is mostly the fictions about them that we love. The realities are often not as lovable. So whether Krsna exists or not hardly matters at all.

As for a scriptural support for my atheism argument, I would point to sarvadharmAn parityajya mAm ekaM zaraNaM vraja. Sarva-dharmAn is pretty clear. He doesn't say aneka-dharmAn or bahudharmAn. Of course, I don't believe that Krsna really said this, but whoever did made a good point.

[maasikdharma]

I get all of your points, Nitai, however my question remains: what would impel an atheist to do bhajan of a fictional character?

Vaishnavas or those interested in Vaishnavism are already predisposed toward the "mythic" and the "mystical" - what would impel an atheist?

I like reading a good fictional novel every now and then but I would not build my life around the study of, meditation of, chanting of, and aradhana of characters in a novel.

That approach to bhakti just does not make any sense to me.

[madanmohandas]

Greetings all. This is all very intellectually challenging. It seems we operate on the strength of certain assumptions. An atheist would then supposed to be one who assumes there is no theo, god, isvara etc. I was brought up on the assumption that there is no such thing as a god, my parents were communists, which all seemed very good and proper to me. Needless to say, my parents were shocked and confused when I ran away to the Krishnas. My father could not comprehend how one brought up with sound ideals about humanity could join a religious cult!
But all I did was change my assumption that there must be a 'god', particularly after experimenting with LSD and Ganja. Now I don't see, as Maaskdharma remarks, how one could practice the various sadhanas, without operating on the assumption that Krsna exists, or that Krsna is himself all existence, sanmAtrA. These are certainly abstract concepts.