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Post by billie jean on Jul 31, 2008 19:24:02 GMT -6
Ok that's enough for me folks, I mean how long can a person argue with a Devotee of Michael Jackson?
We all know Shiva will never stop with his BS and I am wasting my time here.
I am just amazed that he finally came out with all this.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2008 16:00:08 GMT -6
If Shiva/Buddysattva wishes to believe his vision of Michael Jackson being Krishna, I don't see how that really harms anyone else. (Wasn't he also implying that the young girl was Radharani?)
The only real nit I have to pick is whether or not Prabhupada's books indicated that the goal is to have a personal relationship with God. I thought this was pretty obvious. Sure the organization emphasized book distribution as service such preaching as the highest type of service one could perform--but it was all supposed to lead to a personal relationship with Krsna. That's also why hearing and chanting and so on were recommended.
We can all disagree about the best ways to achieve this personal loving relationship, but in all of bhakti yoga, whatever the branch, it is acknowledged as the goal.
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Post by yes but on Aug 4, 2008 16:50:42 GMT -6
Srila Prabhupada recommended a personal relationship with KRISHNA, not with gods or projections of God. One must know Krishna. If one is not interested in Krishna, as is the case with you Tapati, then thats your right, but Krishna is the personality Prabhupada recommended us to have a personal relationship with. Please acknowledge his actual teaching in this. He did not say whatever form of God you may create, have a relationship with that god. He clearly taught Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2008 18:20:16 GMT -6
Srila Prabhupada recommended a personal relationship with KRISHNA, not with gods or projections of God. One must know Krishna. If one is not interested in Krishna, as is the case with you Tapati, then thats your right, but Krishna is the personality Prabhupada recommended us to have a personal relationship with. Please acknowledge his actual teaching in this. He did not say whatever form of God you may create, have a relationship with that god. He clearly taught Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I'm not arguing that Prabhupada was advising people to have relationships with figments of their imagination, though he did tell Christians more than once that they could chant the name of Christ, Moslems could chant the name of Allah and so on. It appeared that he believed the God they were trying to worship was in fact Krishna whether they knew it or not. I brought this up because way back in his chronicle Buddysattva indicated that he didn't learn from being in ISKCON that the point was to have a personal relationship with Krsna--that the directive given was to render service to the spiritual master and in particular, preaching activities like sankirtan. My point was that all these activities were clearly meant to lead to that personal relationship. Let's suppose for a moment that all of the objectors to Buddysattva's thesis are correct and he is misguided in his worship of Michael Jackson. Perhaps he's delusional as a result of his drug use or other problems. Whatever. Do you not picture a merciful Krsna who sees that he is trying to worship Him as he believes him to be, in apparent sincerity, and accepts his efforts as such? Is not the Lord in fact residing within the body of Michael Jackson? For that matter, aren't we all parts and parcels of God? Aren't we supposed to be offering respect to the Divine in each other? I'm not saying worshiping Michael Jackson is the best and highest possible course of action. I'm just saying if one is sincerely mistaken, isn't there such a thing as Krsna's mercy and grace? By your own theology, isn't there hope that eventually, in a future life, Krsna will lead Buddysattva out of his mistaken way of thinking and bring him closer to a more authentic devotional path? I'm just amazed that people who are saying he's "crazy" are not more compassionate. If someone is deluded, then of course they are unable to pierce through that delusion on their own.
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Post by yes but on Aug 4, 2008 18:20:55 GMT -6
...and Michael Jackson is NOT the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2008 18:55:51 GMT -6
Well, yes, ISKCON distorts a lot of things to feed the needs of the organization. I'm just saying that it is there in the books even if they don't wish to give anyone time to actually read them. Keeping everyone on a dependent, rule-bound, kanishta-adhikary level serves their needs.
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Post by yes but on Aug 4, 2008 19:57:34 GMT -6
Yes Krishna is merciful and, knowingly or not, all follow his path. There is a process for approaching Krishna. Tad vidhi pranipatena...: There has to be a third party in the equation: Sri Guru. People like Shiva want Krishna without guru. Its not possible, simply not doing. Shiva knows he will not get past anyone sane with his theory, therefore he goes even further with the delusion trying to 'rationalize' away the matter of guru: He says, "Oh, guru is this guru is that." Meanwhile he follows no one, no guru but his own concocted story. Go research and see if you find any guru anywhere in history, from ancient times to the present day, who has suggested that at certain point in history, in America, there would appear an incarnation of Krishna called Michael Jackson. This has never been corroborated by anyone whatsoever. So when you talk about people not being compassionate with Shiva, its actually the opposite: to agree with him in his delusion is to do him a disservice. Shiva simply does not want to accept that Krishna is very fond of his devotees, that He prefers that one goes to His devotees first. His devotees show the way. But Shiva does not like to follow guru. He does not understand the glories of Bhagavan's bhaktas. It is hard to trust another human being to guide us in our devotion, especially in this day and age. But that is the great task given us by dear God. It requires great faith and great submission.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2008 3:00:27 GMT -6
So when you talk about people not being compassionate with Shiva, its actually the opposite: to agree with him in his delusion is to do him a disservice.
No one is asking or expecting agreement--but at what point does flogging a dead horse become just a distraction from your own service? It just seems pointless for so many to go on and on and get angry over it. If, as some of you are saying, Shiva is crazy, then haranguing him won't suddenly cure the insanity. If we see someone putting their shoes on their head, we don't yell at them but rather gently correct them. If they persist, and they aren't physically in danger or a danger to others, we leave them be.
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Post by noni noni on Aug 5, 2008 7:28:09 GMT -6
Tapati,
The truth is, there aren't that many people bothering about Shiva's insane philosophy. In fact, I think there are only about two, maybe three people objecting here. From my point of view, I think he is lucky there is anyone at all interacting with him. He clearly wants to make his philosophy popular - he comes public with it practically every day. This means he needs and wants company. But his bhava is so unpalatable, so grotesque, that for him to get any attention at all, even negative, is probably making him very cozy. So he is ok (or at least he thinks he is ok), don't worry about him. Worry about yourself, I would say.
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Post by Audarya on Aug 5, 2008 11:59:21 GMT -6
Shiva,
I don't watch this stuff, ever. So, if you can't make your point without it, you can't make your point.
May I suggest shastra. I will read that if you got some.
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Post by maharaja on Aug 5, 2008 14:10:19 GMT -6
No Shiva, its you who shouldn't be clicking cluttering these pages. You're done.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2008 14:42:21 GMT -6
Tapati, The truth is, there aren't that many people bothering about Shiva's insane philosophy. In fact, I think there are only about two, maybe three people objecting here. From my point of view, I think he is lucky there is anyone at all interacting with him. He clearly wants to make his philosophy popular - he comes public with it practically every day. This means he needs and wants company. But his bhava is so unpalatable, so grotesque, that for him to get any attention at all, even negative, is probably making him very cozy. So he is ok (or at least he thinks he is ok), don't worry about him. Worry about yourself, I would say. Oh I'm doing just fine, thanks.
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Post by Dolce on Aug 5, 2008 18:07:57 GMT -6
Glad you are doing fine, Tapati, so you are able to come to the aid of those in need like Shiva.
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Post by Bhakta Dharma on Aug 6, 2008 7:25:28 GMT -6
Yes carry on with your story but dont get too esoteric and in depth like Anadis huge chunks of quotes and such things, autobiog bits the best, MJ and huge quote chomping was bitter and leave off you critics. try seeing the nectar of the story, Isk history is good in my opinion and I dont care what people think of me. I dont even care what behind the scenes ongoing fued whoever has with Buddysattva, that is between you and him not everyone and him, of course I am new to this and dont know what is going on in this regard and I do not want to. I am only interested in biog autobiog matters and Isk history before it is totally wiped off the map and covered up completely, like much countercultural and ISK history...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2008 14:44:39 GMT -6
Yes carry on with your story but dont get too esoteric and in depth like Anadis huge chunks of quotes and such things, autobiog bits the best, MJ and huge quote chomping was bitter and leave off you critics. try seeing the nectar of the story, Isk history is good in my opinion and I dont care what people think of me. I dont even care what behind the scenes ongoing fued whoever has with Buddysattva, that is between you and him not everyone and him, of course I am new to this and dont know what is going on in this regard and I do not want to. I am only interested in biog autobiog matters and Isk history before it is totally wiped off the map and covered up completely, like much countercultural and ISK history... Sorry to disappoint, but there won't be much more of ISKCON history. I have not had much interaction with ISKCON after the mid 1980's. As for feuds, well, there is no backstory and there is no feud. There are just a few haters who like to blather on. When confronted they make up excuses for their hateful attitudes. They are like mosquitos. Like annoying insects, we should understand that they are also guided by God to stir things up in order to get the desired outcome. God moves in mysterious ways.
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