Although the results do not appear to support any recent invasions into India, the study does however have bad news for those who wish to take the old Sanskrit texts literally: Asian and European human migrations all originating in Africa.
Last Edit: Jul 13, 2007 13:52:50 GMT -6 by kingcobra
"A vast number of statements and materials presented in the ancient Vedic literatures can be shown to agree with modern scientific findings and they also reveal a highly developed scientific content in these literatures. The great cultural wealth of this knowledge is highly relevant in the modern world. Techniques used to show this agreement include:
a-) Marine Archeology of underwater sites (such as Dvaraka) b-) Satellite imagery of the Indus-Sarasvata River system c-) Carbon and Thermoluminescence Dating of archaeological artifacts d-) Scientific Verification of Scriptural statements e-) Linguistic analysis of scripts found on archaeological artifacts f-) A Study of cultural continuity in all these categories."
Have Any of you seen graham hancocks work on flooded kingdoms of the last ice age. The book is called "Underworld flooded kingdoms of the last ice age. He and his scientist friends have found underwater ruins all over the world from 30 to 70 meters of water, the vedas talk of the lost cities being buried by a large flooding of water.
Text from the sumerians says: "All the windstorms, exceedingly powerful, attacked as one, at the same time the flood swept over the cult centres"
Text from Mahabalipuram say: " the god of the sea let loose his billows and the city was at once overflowed by that furious element.
what alot of scientists propose is that the vedas are a direct decendant of the mother language, as they discovered this when they find that all indo european languages are in common with sanskrit....after careful comparison of all the signs, most scholars agree that there are between 400 and 450 different signs of graphemes. The mature form of the scropt, in other words,appears suddenly in the archaeological record some time before 2600bc. Thereare no indications of evolution or development. one day it wasnt there, next day it was. How is this to be explained? Basically the language of sanskrit was around before the so called aryan invasion of 1200bc. THE world did speak a mother language, as they find south american indians using a sanskrit. It is interesting to note that in Sanskrit, one of the earliest languages on earth, traces of which are found in south americas, in sanskrit the word meaning great cataclysm is atyantica now that is close to the word atlantica. so alot of the old languages to come from a commom language.
I really recommend you fellow sentient beings read Graham Hancocks books..."fingerprints of the gods" and "underworld" there is alot of good data.
Granted knowledge is being increased by investigations into submerged sites, etc. Still that has no bearing whatsoever on accurate dating of Sanskrit texts from the classical and Vedic periods. The linguistic connections between Eurasia and the Americas is actually in keeping with the overwhelming evidence of migrations earlier than the Bering land bridge migration from Siberia. That does not mean that Sanskrit was the ancient language from which later languages descended, because in fact Sanskrit is one of those later descendants.
To propose that there was some very ancient Vedic civilization is just plain goofy and there is no evidence of any type to support such an idea. Instead of reading stuff by Hancock, you will get a much better sense for the rise of civilizations by reading books by Jared Diamond, along with his monumental work on the demise of civilizations, Collapse.
Besides, CV as a tradition does not concern itself with anything that came before Caitanya, except as a basic foundation. BP is a core text, but the writings of Rupa, Sanatan and Jiva are what actually develop the theology and later Baldeva's tika on Vedanta. The antiquity of the Vedic religion, which is distinct from the bhakti movement, is hardly of any consequence to the CV community, which has an entirely different form of religion.
Yes, CV is part of the larger bhakti movement which started with the Alvars and others, but it is a separate movement within that larger movement in its own right. Today that community has changed radically from what it was in Caitanya's time. We here on this site are concerned with the tradition in its current state.
Last Edit: Dec 12, 2007 13:06:02 GMT -6 by kingcobra
Well thats what i forgot to write in above that the sanskrit today comes from another older source, They find that pictographs is a very advance language. What language was spoken at Babel, as it describes humans all speaking a common language, and then we all went our separate ways and then the environment caused different tongues most properly, I like what Graham Hancock, Robert bauval, john Anthony west have to say including many other geologists, astronomers etc, They are very informative as they shine light on understanding what the old civilizations were trying to do. The ancients were keeping time of the manifestation. Most properly aliens did manipulate us a very long time ago, as every culture has there story of serpent men coming from the sky and mating with earth woman, or taking our DNA and manipulating it, from Sumerian text says that they took the "rib" meaning life force from Adam and made woman, some Sumerian text describe when they first arrived Humans were grazing in the fields with all there animal counterparts. But who knows only time will tell. But it is interesting that alot of paintings through history show flying objects in the sky.
There is a reason people like that are not accepted as real authorities and are generally considered to be crackpots. An original common language among terrestrial humans first of all would not have been even possible, since early humans were scattered all over the globe in small groups that developed language independently of one another. Even if some space aliens had visited earth to teach language to humans, the logistics of such a task on a global scale make the odds against it astronomical. To take the story of the tower of Babel literally is not exactly rational or logical. Did the same space aliens teach language to dolphins and humpbacked whales? Although we don't know what they are communicating, those creatures clearly have a complex form of language that is not just some meaningless sounds. There is no need to look to space aliens when there is a perfectly plausible explanation for language from an evolutionary standpoint. When early hominids began to hunt in bands, then there was a vital need for communication in order to organize and strategize. Even most species of birds have various calls to communicate different information to one another - they are not all just mating calls. Language is therefore a natural function of living organisms rather than one that needs a supernatural cause.
If you read Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel then you will understand that civilization does not require visitations from extraterrestials in order to arise. It just requires an ample variety of crops for cultivation and animals for domestication. In the absence of those, such as geographical locations like Papua New Guinea, large groups of people cannot be supported - not enough food. Did space aliens give humans the plow or did they invent it on their own? Considering all of the other tools invented before the plow, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that humans were unable to come up with it.
All of those far fetched theories may make interesting reading, but they are not very plausible.
Last Edit: Dec 13, 2007 11:07:16 GMT -6 by kingcobra
As I posted on another topic here earlier reconstructing the past is always a matter of best guesses with the evidence available. Certainly we can come up with all types of ideas, but it behooves us to narrow our guesses down to those that have the highest probability. In the absence of written histories that can be considered reliable (unlike allegorical stories like those in the book of Genesis, which cannot be considered historical accounts of actual events by rational people), we have to weigh what artifacts and remains that archaeologists and paleontologists have excavated, as well as the story of the planet over billions of years that is revealed by the subject matter of geology. If we look at tree rings from a particular year and they are very thin, then that is clear evidence of a lack of rainfall for that year. Thin rings just do not occur unless the climate is dry. If ancient potsherds are found ten feet underground they are from a later period than those found twenty feet underground. Given the known rate at which artifacts are buried by new soil and debris layers, we can accurately date the period based on what level the artifacts are unearthed.
Without such a systematic process, then our guesses about the past are just going to be wild guesses rather than educated guesses. Ancient extraterrestrial visitations are among some of the wildest guesses. Does that mean they are completely impossible? No, just highly unlikely.
What is unknown is whether the embryonic form of the bhakti movement was present in the culture of the Eastern European Aryans or of the indigenous people of India or both. What we do know is how and when it sprouted from its seed over several centuries, represented by various texts of the classical and medieval period. One could argue that its concepts were always present in one form or another throughout recorded history and even earlier, in which case it was just a natural progression that brought it to us today in its present state. People not schooled in the discipline of History of Religion will tend to come up with bizarre notions about the past due to their total lack of any methodology. I have been urging people on various boards for many years now to study the works of Eliade and others on the subject. Even if one is not interested in comparison of multiple traditions, there is still immense benefit with respect to following the historical development of a single tradition such as CV. Some headway has been made, but there are still many areas that need further investigation such as the tAntrika, Sufi and Buddhist influences on CV.
There is one huge problem in tracing the migration of the Aryans: They were nomadic and did not leave behind huge archaeological sites. So, we don't have the type of information about them that we do about the Indus Valley civilization. If they were city builders, then there would be ancient ruins of their cities in Europe prior to their migration into South Asia. The linguistic traces are there, however. The reason for the commonality between Indian and European languages is that the Aryans brought their language with them. The genetic markers back up the migration as about as solid evidence as you're going to find. The fact that no remains of horses have been found in India prior to the Aryan migration is also hard evidence that Aryan culture came into India along with its horses at some point. Today there are horses in India. If you go back in time, there have been horses in India for millenia, but if you go back far enough in time - no horses in India. But there were horses in Europe that far back. What does that tell you? There is no evidence of horses in the Americas before the European explorers of the late 15th century arrived either.
Last Edit: Dec 13, 2007 15:59:10 GMT -6 by kingcobra
This type of IGM propaganda is not based on any solid scholarship or research.
Well, I actually have been trying to contact Swami Vishnu to join this thread; hopefully he likes the idea and share with us some of his insights.
"In 1970, Vishnu Maharaja graduated from Clarkson College of Technology with a Master of Science degree in Physics. In 1975 Maharaja came in connection with his spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada in Los Angeles and fully surrendered to his lotus feet."
He has some academic credentials in science, but I would still question his ability to be objective given his affiliation with IGM. Also, in his presentation he talks about Vedic literature while showing a copy of BP, which is not from the Vedic period but from many centuries later. The language of the Vedas is different from that of the texts of the classical period with an entirely different grammar. He talks about some Greek fellow who is supposed to have been a Vaishnava, yet the person in question lived many centuries before Vaishnavism even existed. Vishnu is not one of the major deities of the Vedas, in which Indra and Agni are among the central figures. He should be knowledgeable in the field of physics considering his MS degree, but when it comes to history he does not seem to have the slightest idea. If you want to invite him over here, that is your prerogative. I just don't see the point. I also doubt that he is going to want to carry on any dialog with us anyways.
To digress a little bit here: I think that in the case of the Harrapan sites there is probably a parallel with some of the ancient civilizations in North and South America. The original assumption was that the huge mounds, pyramids, temples and other structures had to have been built by some other group of people because the natives were living in primitive conditions when the Europeans arrived. It was later discovered that the assumption was erroneous, that the people just abandoned those sites and that their descendants were still living in the same area. So, it is a safe assumption that the Harrapan culture did not necessarily vanish, but rather that it was merged with Aryan culture after the invasion of the Aryans. It is doubtful that the Harrapan civilization had the same religious ideas as the Aryans or a caste system like the Aryans. By the time Europeans began to colonize India, there was a culture that had been influenced by the Harrapan civilization, Aryan nomads, and Greek and Mogul conquerors. It was also a culture that had traded extensively with other cultures such as the Chinese, which had to have had some influence. Ancient mummies found in China that look European turned out to have genetic markers for many different groups ranging from Indian to Japanese as well as European. We have to rethink our preconceptions about the ancient world. It was not necessarily one of groups staying put in one place, but rather a very fluid one with groups constantly migrating and relocating much as they do today, albeit at a much slower rate without modern modes of transportation like railroads and aircraft. Sailing ships, which have been around for millenia, allowed people to travel great distances which were impractical over land. Ancient history is not all about wars and conquests. It is also very much about trade and commerce, which were far more the norm than battles between armies that occurred periodically but not constantly. To assume that the Indus Valley civilization was immune to conquests by military forces from outside is very naive. Even if it were not the Aryans, there was the potential for invasions by any of a number of groups from a number of different directions.
Last Edit: Dec 14, 2007 12:00:07 GMT -6 by kingcobra