Aryan Invasion "Controversy"

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2008 18:42:52 GMT -6 @dreamtime said:

1-) then it comes down to distinctions, how would you be able to distinguish a rich Brahmana from a poor nonspiritual man without the different distinction we would not be able to perceive things as they are,

YOU SAY>>Even animal society can't scape. It is the blueprint of your natural tendencies and if applied with logic and justice, the caste-system helps to promote harmony.

2-) BUT isn't human life meant to be above animal life as the B.G always goes on about, so why are you contradicting this. Human life is meant to be above animal tendencies isn't it.

1-) Gita Ch.18, verse.41:

"Of Brahmanas, Kshtriyas and Vaishyas, as also the Sudras, O Arjuna, the duties are distributed according to the qualities born of their own nature."

2-) I am not contradicting the superiority of human life against animal life. I am simply affirming that social divisions can be found among lower species too. On the other hand, humans have the alternative devices of spiritual segments (ashram), so humans can consciously achieve spiritual emancipation, while animals can only claim for the urges of its inferior nature. Thus humans have access to the awakening of its superior nature and the realization of the intricacies and charm that surrounds jivatma.

[dreamtime]

from laws of Manu
1-) Gita Ch.18, verse.41:

"Of Brahmanas, Kshtriyas and Vaishyas, as also the Sudras, O Arjuna, the duties are distributed according to the qualities born of their own nature."

from laws of ManuCHAPTER I.

1. The great sages approached Manu, who was seated with a collected mind, and, having duly worshipped him, spoke as follows:

2. 'Deign, divine one, to declare to us precisely and in due order the sacred laws of each of the (four chief) castes (varna) and of the intermediate ones.

3. 'For thou, O Lord, alone knowest the purport, (i.e.) the rites, and the knowledge of the soul, (taught) in this whole ordinance of the Self-existent (Svayambhu), which is unknowable and unfathomable.'

4. He, whose power is measureless, being thus asked by the high-minded great sages, duly honoured them, and answered, 'Listen!'

5. This (universe) existed in the shape of Darkness, unperceived, destitute of distinctive marks, unattainable by reasoning, unknowable, wholly immersed, as it were, in deep sleep.

6. Then the divine Self-existent (Svayambhu, himself) indiscernible, (but) making (all) this, the great elements and the rest, discernible, appeared with irresistible (creative) power, dispelling the darkness.

7. He who can be perceived by the internal organ (alone), who is subtile, indiscernible, and eternal, who contains all created beings and is inconceivable, shone forth of his own (will).

8. He, desiring to produce beings of many kinds from his own body, first with a thought created the waters, and placed his seed in them.

9. That (seed) became a golden egg, in brilliancy equal to the sun; in that (egg) he himself was born as Brahman, the progenitor of the whole world.

10. The waters are called narah, (for) the waters are, indeed, the offspring of Nara; as they were his first residence (ayana), he thence is named Narayana.

11. From that (first) cause, which is indiscernible, eternal, and both real and unreal, was produced that male (Purusha), who is famed in this world (under the appellation of) Brahman.

12. The divine one resided in that egg during a whole year, then he himself by his thought (alone) divided it into two halves;

13. And out of those two halves he formed heaven and earth, between them the middle sphere, the eight points of the horizon, and the eternal abode of the waters.

14. From himself (atmanah) he also drew forth the mind, which is both real and unreal, likewise from the mind egoism, which possesses the function of self-consciousness (and is) lordly;

15. Moreover, the great one, the soul, and all (products) affected by the three qualities, and, in their order, the five organs which perceive the objects of sensation.

16. But, joining minute particles even of those six, which possess measureless power, with particles of himself, he created all beings.

17. Because those six (kinds of) minute particles, which form the (creator's) frame, enter (a-sri) these (creatures), therefore the wise call his frame sarira, (the body.)

18. That the great elements enter, together with their functions and the mind, through its minute parts the framer of all beings, the imperishable one.

19. But from minute body (-framing) particles of these seven very powerful Purushas springs this (world), the perishable from the imperishable.

20. Among them each succeeding (element) acquires the quality of the preceding one, and whatever place (in the sequence) each of them occupies, even so many qualities it is declared to possess.

21. But in the beginning he assigned their several names, actions, and conditions to all (created beings), even according to the words of the Veda.

22. He, the Lord, also created the class of the gods, who are endowed with life, and whose nature is action; and the subtile class of the Sadhyas, and the eternal sacrifice.

23. But from fire, wind, and the sun he drew forth the threefold eternal Veda, called Rik, Yagus, and Saman, for the due performance of the sacrifice.

24. Time and the divisions of time, the lunar mansions and the planets, the rivers, the oceans, the mountains, plains, and uneven ground.

25. Austerity, speech, pleasure, desire, and anger, this whole creation he likewise produced, as he desired to call these beings into existence.

26. Moreover, in order to distinguish actions, he separated merit from demerit, and he caused the creatures to be affected by the pairs (of opposites), such as pain and pleasure.


These laws of manu state that the lord expanded everything according to his will even the Jivatmas have different attributes, as described above, so what is there to worry about if everything was expanded with there different attributes from the beginning, but you say and others that we obtained these 3 gunas ourselves, but the original gunas were indiscernible and then god made them discernible.
Everything about god is contradictory.

[Deleted]

>>>Everything about god is contradictory.<<<

And that is why he created the females, so He could have some fun, while others complaining about His deeds. With 16.108 wifes, plus hundreds of Gopis; I m sure He had enough action to contradict everything, everyone, including Himself.

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2008 0:03:03 GMT -6 @dreamtime said:

These laws of manu state that the lord expanded everything according to his will even the Jivatmas have different attributes, as described above, so what is there to worry about if everything was expanded with there different attributes from the beginning, but you say and others that we obtained these 3 gunas ourselves, but the original gunas were indiscernible and then god made them discernible.
Everything about god is contradictory.

Could you please, show from where in the text, had you withdrew this conclusion?

[dreamtime]

14. From himself (atmanah) he also drew forth the mind, which is both real and unreal, likewise from the mind egoism, which possesses the function of self-consciousness (and is) lordly;

15. Moreover, the great one, the soul, and all (products) affected by the three qualities, and, in their order, the five organs which perceive the objects of sensation.

16. But, joining minute particles even of those six, which possess measureless power, with particles of himself, he created all beings.


In number 15 it talks about the 3 qualities which your culture calls the three guna qualities.
so what is your conclusion on how the indiscernible 3 qualities became discernible

[Deleted]

>>>so what is your conclusion on how the indiscernible 3 qualities became discernible<<<

I do not know. Would you like to share your perspective?


As far as I understand, the 3 Gunas (Sattva, Raja and Tama) never effectively affects the soul. It is purely a product of the Potency of the Lord, known as Maya that makes we believe that the Soul is the doer, when in reality, the Soul stays untouched. Therefore the Soul never directly interacting with the material nature. The souls is pure Brahman.


It would be a good idea to check the sources of your translations. Be careful about trusting anything you find over the Internet.

[dreamtime]

www.fordham.edu/halsall/india/manu-full.html
Thats were i got the laws of manu from,many other sites have the same.

from what i have read the 3 gunas are incapable of being declared as completely separate from one another. Passion, and Goodness and Darkness are seen existing in a state of union. They are attached to one another. They depend on one another for different percieving distinctions of experience.



Three Gunas: Ayurveda Ayurvedic Dictionary on Trigunas


The Trigunas



Just as the doshas are the essential components of the body, the three gunas - Satwa, Rajas and Tamas - are the three essential components or energies of the mind. Ayurveda provides a distinct description of people on the basis of their Manasa (psychological) Prakriti (constitution). Genetically determined, these psychological characteristics are dependent on the relative dominance of the three gunas.



While all individuals have mixed amounts of the three, the predominant guna determines an individual's mansa prakriti. In equilibrium, the three gunas preserve the mind (and indirectly the body), maintaining it in a healthy state. Any disturbance in this equilibrium results in various types of mental disorders.



Satwa, characterised by lightness, consciousness, pleasure and clarity, is pure, free from disease and cannot be disturbed in any way. It activates the senses and is responsible for the perception of knowledge. Rajas, the most active of the gunas, has motion and stimulation as its characteristics. All desires, wishes, ambitions and fickle-mindedness are a result of the same. While Tamas is characterised by heaviness and resistance. It produces disturbances in the process of perception and activities of the mind. Delusion, false knowledge, laziness, apathy, sleep and drowsiness are due to it.



Rajas and Tamas, as with the doshas, can be unbalanced by stress and negative desires as kama (lust), irshya (malice), moha (delusion and halucination), lobha (greed), chinta (anxiety), bhaya (fear) and krodha (anger). Each of these three properties is also comprised of sub-types and the particular sub-type to which one belongs to determine the qualities of that individual.
www.experiencefestival.com/three_gunas

Brahma (the Grandsire Prajapati) said: Darkness, Passion and Goodness – these are called the three qualities. These are coupled with one another. They exist depending on one another. They take refuge in one another, and follow one another. They are joined with one another. The five principal elements (earth, water, fire, air & space) are characterised by these three qualities. Goodness is the match of Darkness. Of Goodness that match is Passion. Goodness is also the match of Passion, and of Goodness the match is Darkness. There where Darkness is restrained, Passion is seen to flow. There where Passion is restrained, Goodness is seen to flow.
Translated by Swami Tapasyananda

It just seems spirit amd matter go hand and hand for eternity, cannot have one without the other seems to be some type of balance, so its all part of the great experience for us less in quantity jivatmas.

[Deleted]

Pardon me, if I misunderstood you, but your concept about the infinity appear to be wrong. Body is temporary, Soul is eternal. They remain together until the body last. The Soul goes to the next body; on and on, until it finds the right recipient, which will provide the physical and psychological disposition for self realization. Once self realized, the Soul departs and merges into Brahman. That is its own Nature. In other words, there is no such a thing like, "spirit and matter go hand and hand for eternity".

Moreover, being the relation between the body, soul and 3 gunas temporary, it is by the predominance of a particular Guna, or the affect of the "predominate mixture" from the 3 that the nature of the individual is determined. However, it is all based on one' previous Karma; consequently temporary.

As the Swami explain:

"Just as the doshas are the essential components of the body, the three gunas - Satwa, Rajas and Tamas - are the three essential components or energies of the mind. Ayurveda provides a distinct description of people on the basis of their Manasa (psychological) Prakriti (constitution). Genetically determined, these psychological characteristics are dependent on the relative dominance of the three gunas.



While all individuals have mixed amounts of the three, the predominant guna determines an individual's mansa prakriti. In equilibrium, the three gunas preserve the mind (and indirectly the body), maintaining it in a healthy state. Any disturbance in this equilibrium results in various types of mental disorders."


Here is a great link for you to explore about:

The Nature of Jivatma

BTW, If you want to explore more about this topic, I suggest you to post in that thread, while here we can keep it for the "Aryan Invasion Controversy".

Thanks for keeping up the topics.

[dreamtime]

What i meant by hand and hand is that material nature is a temporary inferior energy, but it is still eternal. One seems to stay constant and never changes the Brahman, while the other is eternally constantly metamorphic changing.
Without the inferior energies how would we be able to distinguish that we are spiritual beings.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2008 0:45:45 GMT -6 @dreamtime said:

What i meant by hand and hand is that material nature is a temporary inferior energy, but it is still eternal. One seems to stay constant and never changes the Brahman, while the other is eternally constantly metamorphic changing.
Without the inferior energies how would we be able to distinguish that we are spiritual beings.

Indeed.

>>>Without the inferior energies how would we be able to distinguish that we are spiritual beings.<<<

Now, do we really need Prakrti to realize Brahman, when in reality both have no compatibility with each other? One is eternally changeable, and the other is eternally unchangeable, respectively.

[Deleted]

"if applied with logic and justice, the caste-system can certainly help to promote some sort of harmony"

That is an awfully big IF and an even bigger CAN, Harisaran.

Society organizes itself based on biology and genetics, no matter how hard you try go superimpose some higher order upon the whole chaotic mess. Class struggles will always be there as long as governments are beholden to the greedy people that fund them, and that is not about to change anytime soon. However, it needs to change, and it needs to change yesterday. The planet is in peril, make no mistake about it. As Tori Amos sings, "Where are those angels when you need them?" So, where is that Vishnu-avatara that we need now to unravel this whole mess we have created with our clever schemes built on technologies that are destroying the very foundations upon which life on earth subsists? Either successfully invoke His appearance, or get to work yourselves to do something about the situation. There is no standing still without getting washed away with the coming tide that is already upon us. Swim furiously upstream with every ounce of strength you can muster or be forced to perish downstream. Those are your only two choices right now.

[Deleted]

I have to agree with you Herold that the idea of a society based on caste-system, is not longer up to date. However that does not mean that I do not believe on the original idea and its romantic views. On the other hand, it is a fact that in order for CS to work we would probably have to start everything over again.

In the same way, lets keep in mind that in this lifetime, we never experienced a clean vivid experience on Varnashram-Dharma. So it may sounds utopia, nevertheless, it could probably be the most realistic solution, for its system understands the individual in its broad, multiple aspects of consciousness, in which no other system apparently does. Nevertheless, unfortunately it maybe too late, already.

From Conversations with Yogananda, Crystal Clarity Publishers, 2003

"These were (originally) symbolic designations of the stages of spiritual refinement. They were not intended as social categories. And they were not intended to be hereditary. Things changed as the yugas [cycles of time] descended toward mental darkness. People in the higher [classes] wanted to make sure their children were accepted as members of their own [class]. Thus, ego-identification caused them to freeze the ancient classifications into what is called the ‘caste system.’ Such was not the original intention. In obvious fact, however, the offspring of a brahmin may be a shudra by nature. And a peasant, sometimes, is a real saint.”"

[dreamtime]

Well instead of waiting for some god avatara to save the day like we always have, i think its best if we ourselves follow that old saying "Action speak louder than words".
and Einstein saying "the only reason why so much trouble is on the earth is because not enough good people are willing to stand up",
And when they do the system try's and shuts them down, so they can keep gaining power and freedom at there exception.

[Deleted]

I beg to differ with you HS. I really do not think caste in any form is a viable solution for anything. I think along the lines of James Burke (you can start here to get acquainted with his writings, or just get the book: uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wj9OB3Lq-ig ), and his idea of us eventually evolving towards a controlled anarchy which will be accomplished via our advanced technology. I see caste as being diametrically opposed to that ideal, whether it is that so-called divine plan you reference or some other stratification of society. The ancient rishis in the forest independent of the urban centers and society therein of their times are emblematic of Burke's ideal, in my own opinion.

[Deleted]

Link on balanced anarchy:
uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mB8_wPei2ZM&feature=related