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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 16, 2009 16:47:31 GMT -6
It has occurred to me that there is a standard set of traits that are found in those who come out of IGM. It is as if a person reacts to having one's ego extremely depressed in IGM by bloating it to enormous dimensions after one leaves. It is a sad phenomenon, I think. It is as if IGM not only prevents one from advancing while one is in it, it also releases one in a state of consciousness that almost guarantees that one cannot take up genuine CV after wards. It rather reminds me of the action of carbon-monoxide in the blood stream. The carbon-monoxide bonds with the red blood cells in such a way that oxygen is blocked from bonding to them. That blood cell is essentially ruined and has to be discarded while new ones are grown.
So what are the traits in the ex-IGMer profile?
1. They almost invariably think they are special is some way. This is manifested in several ways:
a. they think they receive messages from Paramatma (!!!)
b. they think they don't need a guru or sadhu-sanga
c. they think they can have a direct relationship with R and K
d. they think that none of the ordinary rules and practices apply to them.
e they respond to efforts to help them as condescension
f. they think that without method or practice they can gain siddhi
g. they think they can have it sooner rather than later
What are some of the other traits I have missed?
All-in-all, it is a sad state of affairs. I wonder if it is possible any longer to make a genuine bhakta out of an ex-IGMer?
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Post by YF on Jul 16, 2009 21:18:04 GMT -6
Regarding the very last question, you personally probably cannot make a bhakta of anyone, due to your own unique badassidity.
Well, the exes keep coming here because its a good place to throw mud at ACBS. If that makes a bhakta of anyone, I'ld say you've got some good chances there.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 16, 2009 22:57:39 GMT -6
Regarding the very last question, you personally probably cannot make a bhakta of anyone, due to your own unique badassidity. Well, the exes keep coming here because its a good place to throw mud at ACBS. If that makes a bhakta of anyone, I'ld say you've got some good chances there. Nobody can make a bhakta except Mahaprabhu and Nityananda. I suspect even they will find it hard with this ex-IGM crowd. Jagai and Madhai start to look like pushovers in this company.
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Post by JD33 on Jul 16, 2009 23:01:46 GMT -6
I think it might be the same thing that Catholics experience - the ones who go through it as children and look for truth and mystical union with God, etc go outside their tradition looking for it - usually to the Eastern Traditions. Very few I think go back into Catholism even though it is rich with mystic saints and their example and teachings. Some people go to the Christian Mystics from other traditions though, not hindered by childhood distaste.
YF - if you understand that comparing a real genuine siddha-saint from CV tradition with ACBS is throwing mud at him - then I think you miss the difference that is being talked about in the comparison.
As you know Dr. OBL Kapoor (DrK) and Bhaktivedanta Swami (BS) were close friends. Dr. Kapoor got re-initiated and entered into the CV tradition - whereas BS did not and struck out on his own creating a cult where no one was free to read anything other than his books and were trained to do anything including lying cheating and stealing in the name of Krsna to get money. DrK told me about the time when BS came to his house shortly before his death - asking for forgiveness from him and all the Vaishnavas for his many offences. DrK said to him a number of times that he still had time to gather and speak to all his disciples that they were not initiated properly and trained by him to hate all true Vaishnavas, etc...... but BS couldn't do it. and so there you have it.
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Post by That person on Jul 16, 2009 23:59:34 GMT -6
Nitai I am sorry but you are being ridiculous. In ture fairness, you yourself are so much more difficult than lots of current IGM and exes. Ease it up will you, IGM current and exes are people like everyone else, the only one thing you could be conceded is the no connection issue. And even that does not present too much of a problem for the tradition as it is a fuss made by you. You got this personal vendetta with IGM that does not make sense to anyone else but you. And a couple of friends perhaps. Ironically, in the end, due to your western background, or due to your personal sourness, you are more like IGM than the sweet tradition you boast to be a representive. I have seen the tradition. They are nothing like you. Even your guru, if he was angry at GM because they called him three cents gosvami or something on those lines, his was a founded reaction. You, you got promoted by fiding Iskcon, then you got rescued by leaving Iskcon. What is all the bitching about? No one owes you anything.
Be a bit more helpful and truly represent the tradition. Iskcon was not an accident. Krishna had a finger in it. Get over it already.
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Post by TP on Jul 17, 2009 0:13:48 GMT -6
These stories, about Bhaktivedanta Swami, there are quite a few of them, and they may all be true, yet each of us will gather a particular detail in the narrations and hold on to it for life. Lucky for us if it isn't a detail which keeps us from moving forward...
If IGM people come here, that is an honor for the hosts as well. In the sense that the guests believe there is genuine compassion to be found here despite Nitai's disrespect for the individuals. This visits also disproves Nitai's theory that IGM is unable of progress. I think all in all there is more chance that IGM's honest seekers find the tradition before Nitai makes a true entrance in it.
In any case, these attacks on IGM current followers or ex followers are unwarranted and unbecoming.
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Post by Sakhicharan Das on Jul 17, 2009 10:51:34 GMT -6
As you know Dr. OBL Kapoor (DrK) and Bhaktivedanta Swami (BS) were close friends. Dr. Kapoor got re-initiated and entered into the CV tradition - whereas BS did not and struck out on his own creating a cult where no one was free to read anything other than his books and were trained to do anything including lying cheating and stealing in the name of Krsna to get money. DrK told me about the time when BS came to his house shortly before his death - asking for forgiveness from him and all the Vaishnavas for his many offences. DrK said to him a number of times that he still had time to gather and speak to all his disciples that they were not initiated properly and trained by him to hate all true Vaishnavas, etc...... but BS couldn't do it. and so there you have it. I find this very interesting JD. I wish I would have met my gurubhai, OBL Kapoor. Did he happen to tell you what Bhaktivedanta Swami's reaction/answer was?
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 17, 2009 11:42:38 GMT -6
Nitai I am sorry but you are being ridiculous. In ture fairness, you yourself are so much more difficult than lots of current IGM and exes. Ease it up will you, IGM current and exes are people like everyone else, the only one thing you could be conceded is the no connection issue. And even that does not present too much of a problem for the tradition as it is a fuss made by you. You got this personal vendetta with IGM that does not make sense to anyone else but you. And a couple of friends perhaps. Ironically, in the end, due to your western background, or due to your personal sourness, you are more like IGM than the sweet tradition you boast to be a representive. I have seen the tradition. They are nothing like you. Even your guru, if he was angry at GM because they called him three cents gosvami or something on those lines, his was a founded reaction. You, you got promoted by fiding Iskcon, then you got rescued by leaving Iskcon. What is all the bitching about? No one owes you anything. Be a bit more helpful and truly represent the tradition. Iskcon was not an accident. Krishna had a finger in it. Get over it already. Just my observations, brother. It occurred to me that there is a pattern operating here. When I left IGM over thirty years ago, I felt that I had gotten a bad guru. I did not think that the whole institution of the guru was bad. I looked around and with the help of more experienced bhaktas I found a fine guru, maybe the best available at the time. Now, I have noticed that people coming out of IGM think they can do without the guru altogether, that they are somehow special or unique and that they don't need or want help from anyone else. They think that they can have or already have a direct relationship with R and K. This, I think, is new and dangerous for them. Dangerous for you. Your very response seems to fit the profile. I don't pretend to represent the tradition and I don't want to represent it. When have I boasted that I represent the tradition? The tradition is bigger than me or you. And it is changing dramatically. I am just a member of the tradition trying to keep up with the changes and understand them as they unfold. Some of the changes I see are troubling and I express that as best I can: initiations by a dead guru, people claiming that they have a relationship with R and K 24/7 without any guru or initiation, and so on. There must be a line somewhere which if we cross it we are no longer connected in any meaningful way with CV. It is that line that I am looking for.
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Post by TP on Jul 17, 2009 11:49:01 GMT -6
So it seems what is left for clarification still is the charge that IGM think they don't need a guru and that they are connected directly with Radha and Krishna. That is so not true. Aren't you getting that crowd mixed up with Buddy perchance? Buddy rejects guru and claims direct dealings with RK. IGM people may not be aware of their actual history, but they never claim such things as you charge.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 17, 2009 11:56:49 GMT -6
These stories, about Bhaktivedanta Swami, there are quite a few of them, and they may all be true, yet each of us will gather a particular detail in the narrations and hold on to it for life. Lucky for us if it isn't a detail which keeps us from moving forward... If IGM people come here, that is an honor for the hosts as well. In the sense that the guests believe there is genuine compassion to be found here despite Nitai's disrespect for the individuals. This visits also disproves Nitai's theory that IGM is unable of progress. I think all in all there is more chance that IGM's honest seekers find the tradition before Nitai makes a true entrance in it. In any case, these attacks on IGM current followers or ex followers are unwarranted and unbecoming. Sorry. I will continue to speak my mind whether it is becoming or unbecoming. If you don't like it, too bad. Skip those posts or don't come here. Why should I be honored by your presence here? I don't respect individuals who think they know it all and for whom any attempt at a suggestion is condescension. Is that what people are looking for? Compassion? Oh you poor babies! You have spent your time suffering under a false guru and learning apasiddhanta and engaging either actively or passively in guru-avajna and sadhu-ninda. Poor things! Come here and get a hug. You didn't know what you were doing. It wasn't your responsibility to think about things and ask questions and test your gurus. There we go. A kinder, gentler Nitai. Is that better?
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 17, 2009 12:06:06 GMT -6
So it seems what is left for clarification still is the charge that IGM think they don't need a guru and that they are connected directly with Radha and Krishna. That is so not true. Aren't you getting that crowd mixed up with Buddy perchance? Buddy rejects guru and claims direct dealings with RK. IGM people may not be aware of their actual history, but they never claim such things as you charge. Well, buddy is certainly a fine example, but he is not alone. There are others who fit that pattern. Look if there are ex-IGMers out there who come to this site who do not fit this profile and I am happy to reject it. Sometimes things appear to be real patterns that are not. That is the way or one of the ways we learn. Often the patterns are real and as often they are not. Disabuse me if I am wrong.
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Post by gerard on Jul 17, 2009 16:11:19 GMT -6
So what are the traits in the ex-IGMer profile? 1. They almost invariably think they are special is some way. This is manifested in several ways: a. they think they receive messages from Paramatma (!!!) b. they think they don't need a guru or sadhu-sanga c. they think they can have a direct relationship with R and K d. they think that none of the ordinary rules and practices apply to them. e they respond to efforts to help them as condescension f. they think that without method or practice they can gain siddhi g. they think they can have it sooner rather than later What are some of the other traits I have missed? All-in-all, it is a sad state of affairs. I wonder if it is possible any longer to make a genuine bhakta out of an ex-IGMer? As an ex-IGMer I can honestly say that a - g do not apply to me or recognize myself in them. Whether it is possible to make a genuine bhakta out of an ex-IGMer I have no idea. You probably only mean a CV-bhakta anyway, I suppose.
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Post by K66LGKK on Jul 17, 2009 16:24:14 GMT -6
First of all, happy belated b-day, Nitai.
If you want to talk about a profile that fits ex-IGMers, how about the one that Richard Dawkins describes of the recovering Catholic (substitute polygamist Mormon cult or ISKCON or whatever sect you want for Catholic)?
Saints and mysticism? Sure, in the obscure corners of the history of the Church, but not exactly mainstream stuff that the congregations around the world are exposed to at Saturday afternoon mass. The average Catholic is not entering the seminary or some monastery. You may as well throw exorcisms into the mix while you're at it. Like that is something most Catholics have done in their house on a regular basis.
Guilt trips and all sorts of extreme odd behavior are part of that profile, at least until the former adherent actually recovers.. Then there is Dawkins's demonstration of the negative correlation of religiosity and ethical or moral behavior.
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Post by YY on Jul 17, 2009 16:34:44 GMT -6
There is no kinder an gentler Nitai I see just the same usual j... well never mind. IGM, exes or current, come here because everybody is bored, actually. Nobody cares for your compassion or whatever it is that you have the delusion of dispensing or witholding. You're just and old fart like everyone else, get the point man. ;D
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Post by YY on Jul 17, 2009 16:38:39 GMT -6
There is no kinder an gentler Nitai obviously just the same usual j... nobody is ever going to be surprised by you thats for sure. IGM, exes or current, come here because everybody is bored, actually. Nobody cares for your compassion or whatever it is that you have the delusion of dispensing or witholding. You're just and old fart like everyone else, get used to it man. ;D
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