SINCERE QUESTIONS

[Nitaidas]

Oct 4, 2010 21:48:42 GMT -6 spiritualbhakti said:

These next couple of questions are very important for me to understand correctly.

1) Sri Krsna is rasaraja and Sri Radha is mahabhava, how to understand the acintya bheda abeda of the divine couple as explained by Sri Rupa goswami?
2)I don't doubt the spiritual forms of Sri Sri Radha Krsna,we as jivas have these "forms" so it would be illogical if the absolute could not have a divine"form" of its own but how do i understand my diety in priciple and what the mahajans are trying to exxplain symbollicaly?
3)How to understand the Union and Seperation of the divine couple?

I am eagerly awaiting your responses everybody.

Thank You!!

These are post-graduate questions, spiritualbhakti. It is very difficult to answer them in a way that can be understood easily, even by someone like myself who has been at this for so many years. Are the answers to these questions essential for your sadhana at present? You won't be able to continue with harinama unless you know the answers? If they are not that essential at present, leave them for a while until you have gathered more experience through sadhana. We will come back to them then. I promise.

Sorry. I know this sounds like a put off, but it really is not intended in that way. I don't think the result of such inquiries would be anything but misunderstanding at present. Just to give an example, what does rasaraj and mahabhava really mean? Without knowing that on more than just an intellectual level, that is to say, on an experiential level too, your first question makes no sense.

Please keep asking questions, though. Just make them a little easier pls.

[spiritualbhakti]

Hmm, Those questions don't need to be answered presently, mostly because what you said about understanding on an experiential level,I dont want to misunderstand or become confused.

I guess what is most important for me to understand is ; What is the goal of the sadhana for the followers of Sri Rupa Goswami?And how do us a bhakta jivas reach that goal?
I would be nice to get even a little understanding of what the goal of the teachings are.

shanti

[gerard]

(Sorry, spiritualbhakti, for the messy reply, it is copy and paste from different translations)


Brahma-samhita 5.60

yasyah sreyas-karam nasti
yaya nirvrtim apnuyat
ya sadhayati mam eva
bhaktim tam eva sadhayet

na asti – there is nothing else; shreyah-karam – which is more potent in promoting auspiciousness; yasyâh – than that (shuddha-bhakti ); yayâ – (because) by that; âpnuyât – one can attain; nirvritim – supreme bliss; eva – certainly; yâ sâdhayati – it captivates; mâm – Me; eva – indeed; sâdhayet – one should practice sâdhana; tâm bhaktim – for that shuddha-bhakti.

translation

Prema-bhakti is the aim and object of life, and there is nothing more auspicious than this. The platform of supreme bliss is attained only through prema-bhakti. This prema-bhakti, which leads to Me, is only achieved through sâdhana-bhakti.



Jiva Gosvami: Prema-bhakti is the only aim and object of life (sâdhya), and there is nothing more auspicious than this for the living entities. Bhagavân is attained by prema-bhakti, which is the embodiment of the highest transcendental bliss. See Srimad Bhagavatam 4.24.55.



Bhaktivinode Thakur: There is no greater good for the jiva beyond prema-bhakti. It is the Objective of all devotional practices, and the ultimate Transcendental Ecstacy of the soul. It is only by virtue of prema-bhakti that one can attain the Lotus Feet of of Krishna. One who cultivates his practising devotional life with deep longing and earnestness for that Objective will attain that treasure.

[Nitaidas]

Oct 5, 2010 21:08:54 GMT -6 spiritualbhakti said:

Hmm, Those questions don't need to be answered presently, mostly because what you said about understanding on an experiential level,I dont want to misunderstand or become confused.

I guess what is most important for me to understand is ; What is the goal of the sadhana for the followers of Sri Rupa Goswami?And how do us a bhakta jivas reach that goal?
I would be nice to get even a little understanding of what the goal of the teachings are.

shanti

Now that is a question that I think i can answer. But I think you also know the answer or at least some of the standard answers since you read a lot.

Gerardji's answer is good, but it also opens up many more questions. What is prema bhakti? How does one get it? How long does it take? what is it like when one gets it? Etc etc.

For the moment, let's just focus on taking one step at a time. As I see it the sadhana we currently practice is aimed primarily at cleansing the mind. That ceto-darpana-marjana that we have been discussing in another thread. As Mani Babu puts it in his book on the Holy Name, the holy name grinds away the crud that has accumulated over lifetimes and once that has been ground away we are able to see reality as it is. Rupa calls this anartha-nivrtii. Sadhana is bhajana-kriya. So that is our first task. I look at it a little differently. I don't much care for the metaphors of clean and dirty. There is nothing really dirty about the mind. I think it is rather unhealthy to think of it in those terms. For me what we are doing is reprogramming ourselves. In our mantra-japa and holy nama japa and sankirtana we are turning our attention away from the impermanent, unsatisfying and sometimes frustrating world towards Krsna, about whom we know very little to start off with. Gradually, however, we learn more about him and we forge a bond to him and those who love him and he begins to take on a life of his own in our lives. It is a gradually process and one that has its ups and downs, but through all of that Krsna becomes an item for us eventually crowding out other items and taking up our whole attention. More on this later. I have suddenly realized I have to run.

[spiritualbhakti]

Thank You Geradji, Nitai dasji.

What is suprising is that i knew that prema is the goal but I guess i didn't really think about it ; Im really happy now. ;D

I told myself today i was going to give up on searching with my intellect, because when i do that im just reading but not really catching the meanings.I told myself i dont really want to analyze and try to understand who Radha Krsna are.I dont even have diksha and im trying to "understand" them.

I just want to love Radha Krsna in madhurya, i just want to behold them.

so im giving up on the book searching and focusing strictly on the soul searching; calling out to Hare Krsna.

[spiritualbhakti]

Here is an example of english type kirtan.
I catch feelings every time i hear it.

[Nitaidas]

Oct 6, 2010 20:52:33 GMT -6 spiritualbhakti said:

Thank You Geradji, Nitai dasji.

What is suprising is that i knew that prema is the goal but I guess i didn't really think about it ; Im really happy now. ;D

I told myself today i was going to give up on searching with my intellect, because when i do that im just reading but not really catching the meanings.I told myself i dont really want to analyze and try to understand who Radha Krsna are.I dont even have diksha and im trying to "understand" them.

I just want to love Radha Krsna in madhurya, i just want to behold them.

so im giving up on the book searching and focusing strictly on the soul searching; calling out to Hare Krsna.

Well these are honorable goals, spiritualbhakti, but don't give up on the intellectual side too soon. You really need both. Do your japa, but also spend some time reading during the day---a half an hour or an hour. Don't read things that are too advanced for now. Read the Gita or the Bhagavata. Read some of the books of Ananta Das Babaji---his work on the Siksastaka, or on the Raga-vartma-candrika. Read the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (read David Haberman's fine translation). But do try to avoid the IGM versions of these things. They will ultimately be harmful to you. At least I believe they will. And if you want I will explain why in a personal letter. So don't turn away from the intellectual side. As you increasingly put Krsna before your mind in chanting you also need to fill out the narrative that surrounds him. In other words, you need to get to know him better and that includes his other presences like Sri Gauranga and his companions who are our models in learning how to love him. The most important thing is to be regular. Try never to fail to do your japa or your reading or your kirtana. This regularity will help you immensely through rough patches. And don't preach! That is the worst thing you can do at present. Keep your practices to yourself so that you are not disturbed and you don't disturb others. This way you will make rapid advancement.

[spiritualbhakti]

Luckily i found these verses br Srila Rupa Goswamipad from his Upadesamrita.
atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca / prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ
jana-sańgaś ca laulyaḿ ca / ṣaḍbhir bhaktir vinaśyati

Six items detrimental to the development of devotion are as follows:
(1) eating too much or collecting more than necessary,
(2) endeavours which are opposed to bhakti,
(3) useless mundane talks,
(4) failure to adopt essential regulations or fanatical adherence to regulations,
(5) association with persons who are opposed to bhakti, and
(6) ardent longing for the mundane.

atyāhāraḥ prayāsaś ca / prajalpo niyamāgrahaḥ
jana-sańgaś ca laulyaḿ ca / ṣaḍbhir bhaktir vinaśyati

Six items favorable for the development of devotion are as follows:
(1) enthusiasm,
(2) firm faith,
(3) patience and fortitude even amidst obstacles,
(4) performance of proper activities,
(5) giving up undesirable association, and
(6) molding one's life similar to that of earlier saints.

[rahulhb]

"The suggestion would be for those coming to CV from IGM is for them to do whatever it takes to become humble and aware of themselves........ extensive yoga practice and/or a 3 to 6 month stint in a Buddhist or other such Monestary might be good medicine in the sense of cleaning out the predjuices that have built up in their system. "

You suggest staying in a Buddhist monastery to attain humility. This is the kind of nonsense that is preventing the traditional gaudiyas from gaining any sort of following in the west. Is that any of the six goswamis recommendation? NO. NEVER. Why not stay in a holy place in india or with a gaudiya guru for three months , and chant harinam and hear hari katha. Go become a Buddhist why don't you , i know many traditional gurus who would slap you if you said such a ridiculous thing in front of them and you certainly would deserve it for such asinine advice and for offending our tradition.

[Nitaidas]

Oct 10, 2010 10:08:57 GMT -6 rahulhb said:

"The suggestion would be for those coming to CV from IGM is for them to do whatever it takes to become humble and aware of themselves........ extensive yoga practice and/or a 3 to 6 month stint in a Buddhist or other such Monestary might be good medicine in the sense of cleaning out the predjuices that have built up in their system. "

You suggest staying in a Buddhist monastery to attain humility. This is the kind of nonsense that is preventing the traditional gaudiyas from gaining any sort of following in the west. Is that any of the six goswamis recommendation? NO. NEVER. Why not stay in a holy place in india or with a gaudiya guru for three months , and chant harinam and hear hari katha. Go become a Buddhist why don't you , i know many traditional gurus who would slap you if you said such a ridiculous thing in front of them and you certainly would deserve it for such asinine advice and for offending our tradition.

Well, you seem to have been overwhelmed by a fit of self-righteousness. What has gotten into you?

I don't find Jagadish's suggestion so preposterous. Buddhism is a fine religious tradition and shares a great deal with Vaisnavism, especially Bhagavatism. All Indic traditions have the four noble truths in common. They may be expressed somewhat differently in each tradition, but they are essentially the same. Moreover, the Buddhists are masters at meditation and we have much to learn from them in this regard. Historically there appears to be a close connection between the development of Vaisnavism, especially Bhagavatism, and Mahayana Buddhism (vide Hacker and Lamotte).

I would also recommend some time spent studying yoga. The breathing exercises and postures are very useful for long periods of meditation or mantra japa. So too the yamas and niyamas are excellent ethical and operational practices for all Vaisnavas to follow. Vaisnavism is, after all, a yogic tradition and as such shares many of the same practices and attitudes. Rupa Goswamin has clearly based his system of bhakti-yoga on the eightfold yoga system as pointed out elsewhere.

This rabid sectarianism that seems to be behind your remarks is rather disturbing. I think it is just the sort of attitude that ex-IGMers bring with them into traditional CV that Jagadish is worried about. Dare we call it arrogance? This sense that there is no truth except in CV? People come out of IGM basically fucked up. They are programmed in ways that it is hard for them to overcome. In some fashion they need to be de-programmed. It has taken me years to dismantle the distorted worldview I was implanted with in IGM and I still discover remnants of it in my ways of thinking. It is probably something I will struggle with it the rest of my life. So, Jagadish's suggestions for wiping the slate clean are not so far-fetched. The case is similar with the study of music. Often times a student trained in one method is asked to forget that method and start over with a new method. The situation is the same here.

You suggest an alternative: going to India, living with a real CV guru there and doing harinama japa and Harikatha. How many people are able to do that? That would certainly be ideal, but that cannot be done so easily. In the meantime there are Buddhist meditation programs all over the world, monasteries and other centers. There are also yoga retreats and centers almost everywhere. It is not ideal, but it is a good way to try to wipe the slate clean and learn some useful techniques and practices that will serve one well later. Until we can manage to set up some authentic CV asramas and centers in the West, this will have to do. But there is an even greater problematic with moving from an IGM center to a real CV center. Those who make the move will think they are the same thing. They are not and ex-IGMers need to be deprogrammed before they can appreciate the differences. Without that, people will just bring their messes from IGM to CV. Result: real CV will never actually be practiced here.

Do you really think these Indian gurus understand this? We may respect them for what they represent and what they have achieved, but they haven't a clue when it comes to understanding the challenges facing CV in the West. It is beyond their areas of expertise. We are on our own here.

[spiritualbhakti]

Well im glad i was blessed to be pointed in the right direction of traditional CV,
wish i could just run off to india, in fact that is my secret plan; just have to get my finances up before i can do that. The idea of a traditional cv ashram in the west is exciting; but how will it be kept traditional and not so modern and western.

also these question come to mind:

1)How long should a person stay in india learning from there guru? i personally want to stay at least 4-6 months or as long as nitaichand wants me to.

2)What is the relation between the 8 fold yoga path and bhakti?

thanks.

[Nitaidas]

What are your plans, sb? You shouldn't expect to just waltz over there and be accepted as a disciple right away. I would say spend the first six months just meeting and interviewing potential gurus. For that you will need to know where to stay and how to get around. You can't just walk up and knock on the door and expect to be taken in. You will need introductions and guidance and all sorts of help. India is a dangerous place. If disease does not get you, crooks and thieves will. And you are going without knowing any of the languages. You should contact people and arrange for help before you go. Maybe folks like Sakhicarana and Visakha and Subrata can help you. Otherwise you will just waste your money and your time and maybe endanger your life. If you are really lucky you, by the end of your first visit, will find someone who will give you harinama initiation and ask you to come back in a year or two for mantra diksa.

[Nitaidas]

Here is the way it works out:

1. zraddhA = yama
2. sAdhu-sanga = niyama
3. bhajana-kriyA = Asana
4. anartha-nivRtti, niSThA = prANAyAma
5. ruci = pratyAhara
6. Asakti = dhAraNA
7. bhAva = dhyAna
8. prema = samprajJAta-samAdhi
9 higher evolutes of prema (sneha, pranaya, etc) = asamprajJAta-samAdhi

[spiritualbhakti]

I definetly plan to meet up with Sakhicarana and Vishakha right away, if I didn't know them or Subrata I don't know what i'll do.
But even then it is up to Sri Sri Nitai Gaura if i will live or die,they are the most merciful incarnations; i can do nothing without there mercy.
Money comes and goes, time keeps on ticking, but I have to make the best of this life,so whatever risk i must take to get diksha;it must be done.

plus im tired of being an outsider.....

[Nitaidas]

Oct 11, 2010 11:25:35 GMT -6 spiritualbhakti said:

I definetly plan to meet up with Sakhicarana and Vishakha right away, if I didn't know them or Subrata I don't know what i'll do.
But even then it is up to Sri Sri Nitai Gaura if i will live or die,they are the most merciful incarnations; i can do nothing without there mercy.
Money comes and goes, time keeps on ticking, but I have to make the best of this life,so whatever risk i must take to get diksha;it must be done.

plus im tired of being an outsider.....

Contact them as soon as you can. Subrata is right there in Atlanta with you, but he will be leaving at the end of the month. Try to get together with him as much as you can. He is a learned and humble Vaisnava who comes from an old and blessed family. Try to get some sanga with him before he goes.

As for your trip to India, don't make Sri Sri Gaura and Nitai fish you out of too many tight spots. Make the best plans and arrangements you can from here with your friends on this and other sites and then depend on Thakur if things fail or go wrong (as they always do). Remember who wants to be whose servant.

Also, don't be too hasty to take initiation. There are lots of good choices and some bad ones. Making a bad one could really mess you up. And don't be surprised if nobody wants to give you initiation at first. You have to prove to them that you are worthy and they may want to observe you for a while to be sure. It is a great responsibility to accept someone as one's disciple. Genuine gurus do not enter into that relationship lightly.