Debate-Radhapadadas with an ex-sanyassi:adhikar for smaranam

[malati]

Update: Screenshot now working.

For whatever reason the screenshot does not work. Please click on the link below to listen.
Alachua debate on adhikar for lila smaranam

This video was the lecture given by Radhapada das, who is a dikshit of Sri Ananta das Babaji of Radhakunda in Alachua on Sept 2013. During the Q & A section, the time was solely used up to hammer on the point about the qualifications for eligibility for lila smaranam by a GM ex- sanyassi, who abandoned his commitment to his ashram by getting married. This person is formerly known as Aranya Maharaj. I think he has now reverted to his first name, Premaprajoyan das. (Prema prajoyan das is the person that did not look kindly at householders as he once said, when he was still a sanyassi, that he hoped that there not anymore second or third generation devotees. Meaning everyone should become sanyassi and sanyassini).

(Below are my notes taken from the debate; they are not complete but more like a summary of my understanding of the arguments. If there are incoherences in the notes, most likely it's because of my deficiency. I will be happy to correct them, if any).

The debate starts at around 00.48.00 . The whole video runs for almost 2 hours. We should give credit to both for being civil.

At 00.49.00
Premaprajoyan das: What is the adhikar for lila smaranam?

Radhapada das: There are levels of practice of smaranam -- smarana, dharan, dyan, dhruvanusmirti and Samadhi. Devotee should have a foundational understanding of Krishna and Radha ttatva. I’m not very scholarly or a talented speaker on this subject. The mind is an incredible thing that can create forms and perceive scent. Smaranam is Krishna manifesting in your mind. Regarding adhikar , it is faith that by doing so Krishna will be pleased. There is no level of purity that an external party can measure to reasonably determine who is qualified to do smaranam. Like, you are not pure enough so you are not to do that. It does not work that way.

00.55.45
PPD: Please give scriptural support . The scripture says that if one is contaminated with anarthas one forms conceptions that are prakrithi (??)which is sahajiya. BhaktiRasamrtaSindhu explains about the angas of bhakti. Not everyone is qualified to do lila smaranam. The jiva should first cultivate harinam avoiding the 10 offences and when one has reached ruci then adhikar for lila smaranam will be awakened. At this stage, Krishna’s pastimes, qualities and associates will become clearer and then the jiva can follow Krishna’s eternal associates and pursue this conception within the jiva’s heart. There is a prerequisite before one can have the adhikar. Withouot asakti the jiva will be bewildered . And telling everyone that they can do it is irresponsible.

00.59.00
RD: I will amend my answer. When you take diksha from a guru and he gives you bhajan to practice that’s mercy. And that point is where adhikar comes in. We have no qualification. Before diksha our bhajan is just pretending. It’s not bhajan kriya unless a jiva takes initiation. But with diksha we get purified. I will admit that I’m not a scholar but if you give me time I can provide you scriptural evidence.

1.02.00
PPD: So are you are saying that when one has disksha one automatically qualifies for lila smaranam?

1.03.00
RD: It does not mean that. There are different reasons why a jiva approaches a guru. Some have the understanding that one can develop practice if he chants harinama and will be purified after sometime, or will progress through association with saints and hearing Hari katha. And at a point will develop interest in raganuga bhakti in the mood of the Brajabasi.

How the body can make contact with the lila is far, far beyond mind and senses. Mahaprahbu told Sanatan Goswami that when one gets diksha , Krishna accepts the devotee as his associate. At diskha the contaminations due to material conceptions are destroyed.

Whether that devotee is qualified to do lila smaranam or raganuga bhakti is up to the individual’s progress. There are stages all the way to becoming a siddhi. But even a siddhi in this life who is in manjari bhava will not go directly to goloka but to the planet where Krishna is doing his pastimes and take birth as manjari. This is like her training and after that she will enter the aprakat lila. We propagate Radha Krishna bhajan. But we do not expect everyone to be able to do it.

1.09.00
PPD: So everyone who wants to do it, do it regardless of their stage in the development. The question is not, if everyone can do it but whether one who wants to do it, is qualified to do it.

RD: To meditate on Radha Krishna lila is a very high thing indeed. Can everyone do it. I do not want to judge who can do it or not. Is there any harm in doing it? What is the harm in meditating on Sita-Ram as against Radha-Krishna?

1.10.00
PPD: When the mind is contaminated what one conceives is based on his own experiences in life. One’s mind is material and by its very nature does not experience ananda rupa as first principle. Jiva Goswami explains that by chanting without offence, then the 64 qualities of Krishna are awakened in the jiva and then also she gets insight into the qualities of the eternal associates. Then and only then can one meditates on the astakaliya. Chanting and smaranam are in a sequence of events and if we go to a high level of realization before the low level then our realization will not unfold.

1.12.00
RD: If you say there’s a sequence, what about the jiva that underwent the sequence in the previous lifetime and in this lifetime is halfway in the sequence. We in this lifetime do not see it. Are we going to say” Excuse me, you have to go back to the line.”

1.13.00
PPD: We are not telling the soul anything. The soul will have to continue from where he left off. What I’m saying is: what realization comes before and what comes after. There are 2 types of meditation: mantra and swarasika upasana or serving RadhaKrishna. Swarasika does not come before mantra. Artificially getting into Swaraika upasana will not get one to attain the proper goal.

1.14.00
RD: What about the mercy of the saint?

PPD: It does not change the philosophy. If you are in a certain stage and the guru blesses you then you go to the next stage.

1.15.00
RD: So you mean to say that all of us in this room who take interest in devotional practice are all on the same level? You talked about a sequence— are you talking about this lifetime or several lifetimes?

1.16.00
PPD: Irrelevant. I did not mention anyone. I am pointing those out to make sure we are making progress in our goal in life and not living in a fantasy world of imagination.

RD: Ultimately what we do in life are those that will make us happy. If we are happy with our conviction that is fine. (My note: those are almost like verbatim quotes but I think what RD meant is our desire or strong desire, like “greed” or lobha )

1.16.38
PPD: So are you saying that appasidhanta is ok so long as you feel good about it?

RD: If you want me to give you evidence, I am not prepared now but I can prepare next week.

PPD: I’m going back to Radhakunda tomorrow.

RD: Very nice.

1.17.00
PPD: Lord Chaitanya, is the supreme lord himself and came into this world to show the path of bhakti. Did he receive ekadash bhav, 11 sentiments of swarups at the time of diksha?

RD: There’s no evidence for that.

PPD: So Lord Chaitanya has to come back to do the real thing because the first time he fessed-up. Otherwise, the conclusion is that at the time of diksha you do not receive ekadash bhav.

1.18.00
RD: So you’re saying that Bhaktivinode Thakur is just imagining that he was Kamala manjari? And the EB he received from his guru is a mish mash fantasy?

PPD: For that topic you have to look at it historically. There’s no mention of EB in the writing of the 6 goswamis.

RD: There is a manual written by Dyanachandra goswami. The paddhati.

1.19.00
PPD: He is a second generation disciple and not one of the 6 goswamis. The paddhati is a guideline in performing archana worship. It’s like a negative gucchitti. To remember the 11 sentiments when performing the ceremony with the goal of cleansing the consciousness of material bodily conceptions. Another type of gucchiti is to meditate during archana that one is a parikar of my Krishnadeva in his saccitananda form. So the guru may give this kind of gucchiti in the performance of archana, which is vaidhi bahkti. This is given to those who have not reached ruci. This is not the same as what Jiva Goswami is saying which is seva rupa.

1.22.00
RD: So you are saying that the paddhati of Dhyananchandra Goswami is not authentic?

PPD: I’m saying that the paddhati is a technique but that does not mean that you are qualified for seva rupa. Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur said that for those devotees properly engaged in hearing or chanting they do not need a separate effort to do smaranam because it awakens naturally. If one is not following the sequence, one is not following the goswami and if one is not following the goswamis, then one if not following the manjaris.

RD: Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.

Unknown woman: Intellectual arrogance has never been in line with bhakti. You have been interrupted and taken over. People come to listen to you (to RD). Smaranam is meditating on Krishna rupa within one’s self and qualification for such is not to be judged by an external mind or someone with an arrogant position.

PPD: If you follow the Goswamis that is humility.

[vidyasundar]

Arrogance indeed.

[vidyasundar]

This conversation is little edgy but few things could have been add. I will list them below.

1) The tradition of manjari bhav sadhana along with ekadas bhav is a hidden gift by Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, according to the Goswamis of those vamsas, blod lines. They maintain the tradition. Tradition is not in the original books. The very precious thing is well protected from intellectuals like PPD. It is not in the book. Rupa, Sanatan Raghunanth wrote books after Mahaprabhu left Navadbip. The original upasana is hard to trace in books although some records can be found scattered across writings of primary writers. Books of Goswamis came from Brindavan with Narottam, Syamananda and Srinivas after or close to the disappearance of Mahaprabhu and two Prabhus.

2) It is very important to bring the lack of diksha of Bhaktsiddhanta in order to establish the authority sources quoted, especially in a mixed group where not all accept Bhaktisiddhanta as an authority. If we quote Goswamis lets stay with Goswamis and other nitya parshads quotes.

3) Prem Prayojan's guru, said to Tamal Krsna "if you are thinking whether you are qualified or not you are not qualified. But those who feel they cannot wait regardless of their lack of qualification, are qualified." (par) The bottom line is greed and it is not rati, but as Jiva Goswami said "liking it" a light attraction to follow brajabasis and listening about their seva from a rasik vaishnava will bring necessary qualification. The problem PPD face is his lack of faith in Ananta Das Babaji as that rasik guru.

[malati]

Interesting that with more than 1000 views only one comment was made, by Vidyasundar, which is brilliant.

My heart is afflicted by lust & I never think of my own welfare. My mind cannot shake off bad desires for sense enjoyment. O Lord, O wish-fulfilling tree, please accept me, so all people can behold your mercy. page 108 Sri Sri Prema Chandrika (SSPC)by Narottama das Thakur Mahasaya with commentaries by Pandit Sri Ananta das from commentaries of Sri Visvanath Chakripada)


Although the Supreme Lord does not like or dislike anyone, He loves, hates or rejects no one, still He bestows the devotees the fruits of their worship of him, according to their endeavours, just as a wish yielding tree bestows its fruits to anyone who takes its shelter. Srimad Bhagavatam 10.38.22

The very life of the mind is smarana, and the sweetest remembrance is the pastimes of Radha & Krishna. This is the goal and this is the practise and there is nothing more than this. This truth is the essence of all regulative principles.page 166 SSPC

I will remain dedicated to the path outlined by the mahajanas, the great authorities, distinguishing betweeen the former and the later. Do not neglect the practise of smarana and make this the perfection of your body and mind. page 54 SSPC



Will add more next post.

[meeno8]

There was a group at the Los Angeles ISKCON temple circa 1977 that formed the infamous 'gopi bhava club'. It somehow caught the attention of the GBC, and maybe the highest authority above them as well. I doubt they knew much of anything about actual siddha pranali, but maybe had heard of it. There was some sort of official reprimand, from what I can recall, and I did not know the details. I think they were definitely basing their little secret group on the mention of lila-smaranam in ISKCON publications from BBT.

[malati]

In Pandit Ananta Das's commentary on verse 7.3 of Madhurya Kadambini by Sri Visvanath Chakripad, I quote:

Through sadhana bhakti (I suppose, this does not only mean vidhi sadhan bhakti but more importantly, raganuga sadhana bhakti), the jiva soul's pure state is awakened; that is he realizes his position as an eternal servant of the Lord. This is also known as his siddha swarup. At the time of initiation, the guru introduces the disciple to his spiritual form, or relationship with the Lord in a specific mood of service.

In the GV sampradaya the siddha deha of the sadhaka is that of a manjari or a maidservant of Srimati Radharani. A sadhaka who has not yet attained rati mentally establishes self identification with this siddha swarup and engages in his desired service to the Divine couple. The sadhaka who has attained rati spontaneously perceives this siddha swarup.

On verse 7.5 the Pandit comments :
This does not mean that one can relish rasa immediately after attaining rati. The ability to relish devotional nectar depends on one's previous desires.

In the same commentary Pandit quotes, Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu 2.1.6: One can only relish the divine rasa if one has had spiritual desire for bhakti in both this and the previous birth.