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Post by vkaul1 on Sept 19, 2011 11:48:15 GMT -6
Another problem with literalism, especially in vaisnavas is evident on this forum dvaita.info/pipermail/dvaita-list_dvaita.info/2011-September/004229.html where they discuss if cockroaches are there in vaikuntha  and if they are vegetarian . This is a subject of serious discussion in a dvaita list. I have seen similar discussions among vaisnavas sorting out literal details of the spiritual world. For example, see this comment made by one vaisnava on the forum " I know the material form is different from swarupa, but still cockroaches are so ugly and disgusting that even its swarupa couldn't be all that pleasing. Even Vishnu, in his various avatars, only took forms which are pleasing to the eye." Amazing to see the human-chauvinism in action. If cockroaches found each other ugly and disgusting, they wouldn't replicate in such huge numbers. :-). If the world was ruled by cockroaches ( in a way, they are. arthopods have the largest biomass of all phyla on earth ), then God would have been a cockroach. And they probably would have found the thought of humans in (cockroach ) heaven to be utterly disgusting. Charles de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu "If triangles had a god, he would have three sides." [Lettres Persanes, no 59] I think Nitai ji, such discussions and answers to them remind me of the cartoon you had posted. What do you think? |
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 19, 2011 20:54:54 GMT -6
Yes. You're right. People are just making shit up.
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Post by vkaul1 on Sept 19, 2011 22:55:30 GMT -6
Nitai ji, in traditional CV also there is a long standing debate about whether there is a special realm in paravyoma for Mahaprabhu's pastimes or not and there is no agreement on this. I have seen strong fights on this issue. I think once before you posted that we should not expect to just wake up and beat drums and dance with Krsna after our death because Krsna's form, descriptions are just a symbol or a fragrance of the real thing. So what do you make of anthropomorphic projections of the details of the spiritual world, especially because they correspond very much to medieval Indian culture (the dress, musical instruments, importance of the cow etc)? Another thing the ontological reality of bhauma lila (or appearance of krsna on the earth) is crucial considering that you need to be born in bhauma lila to perfect your svarupa. Assuming that the bhauma lila did not actually happen historically, how do we actually place this? I spoke to one of the traditional CV just a week ago and he just kept on giving me rigid details of the spiritual world that completely mapped the culture of medieval India. I always find it hard to understand how Absolute can be completely captured to fine detail in one particular cultural appearance of a remote speck in the universe. Jagat gave a good summary of the biographies of Sri Chaitanya www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/topic_2332.html and there we see how people have different visions of Gadadhara, Svarupa Damodar etc and in fact the biographies write according to what they felt was right. How can people like us sort these inconsistencies out? When I went to Vrindavan and asked some traditional CVs, they just cited belief in one vision over (some arguing strongly about gaura lila in paravyoma, some against) the other without any good reason. Also there is a huge fear psychosis builit in biographies, you have to accept Nityananda or else you will be doomed much like Judeo-Christian texts. You made a good point about how Sri Chaitanya would not want to impose his conception by force, so he came in a hidden way perhaps. But the biographers do tend to play the offense card all the time to get complete allegiance to their version. For example, people who don't accept Sri Chaitanya are demons etc. How do we understand such statements? |
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Post by Sakhicharan Das on Sept 19, 2011 23:44:01 GMT -6
Jai Nitai!
This post is reminding me of the fact that Mahaprabhu is the yuga avatar and the main person be worshipped. Mahaprabhu had the Goswami's writing so much about Radhey Shyam because without having realization of Them there is no possibility in realizing who Mahaprabhu, Nityananda, and Advaita where. People often are quick to say that the Goswami's of Braja barely mentioned the three Prabhus of Nadia in their writings, but Mahaprabhu instructed them to write about Radhey Shyam, so what is the big surprise there? Mahaprabhu hid in the form of a bhakta, but the real ista-devata of the Gowami's of Braja was Mahaprabhu. He was their heart of hearts.
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Post by vkaul1 on Sept 20, 2011 0:07:39 GMT -6
Sakhi ji, unfortunately we already know now that yuga cycles are not true because there were no humans in satya yuga or treta yuga time period.
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 20, 2011 10:34:03 GMT -6
Jai Nitai! This post is reminding me of the fact that Mahaprabhu is the yuga avatar and the main person be worshipped. Mahaprabhu had the Goswami's writing so much about Radhey Shyam because without having realization of Them there is no possibility in realizing who Mahaprabhu, Nityananda, and Advaita where. People often are quick to say that the Goswami's of Braja barely mentioned the three Prabhus of Nadia in their writings, but Mahaprabhu instructed them to write about Radhey Shyam, so what is the big surprise there? Mahaprabhu hid in the form of a bhakta, but the real ista-devata of the Gowami's of Braja was Mahaprabhu. He was their heart of hearts. Hey Sakhicaran. Good to see you here again. It has been a while. I hear you have had some health issues. I hope those have been resolved and that you are back to bhajan. Thanks for your observations. Always a delight. We/ve been exploring the question of how modern science impacts CV. Among other things we have been discussing the yuga cycles for which there is no physical evidence. In fact, all the available evidence points away from them. Yet, they are very important in the CV doctrine and world-view. They contribute a kind of urgency to the movement and a sense of specialness. Here we are after all in an age that witnessed the appearance of Mahaprabhu, an age in which it could have be easier to develop Krsna-prema. There is a strong sense that we should not waste this opportunity because it won't come again for a long long long time. So thought there is no physical reality to the ideas of yugas, there is perhaps a psychological one that is powerful. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 20, 2011 10:46:20 GMT -6
Nitai ji, in traditional CV also there is a long standing debate about whether there is a special realm in paravyoma for Mahaprabhu's pastimes or not and there is no agreement on this. I have seen strong fights on this issue. I think once before you posted that we should not expect to just wake up and beat drums and dance with Krsna after our death because Krsna's form, descriptions are just a symbol or a fragrance of the real thing. So what do you make of anthropomorphic projections of the details of the spiritual world, especially because they correspond very much to medieval Indian culture (the dress, musical instruments, importance of the cow etc)? Another thing the ontological reality of bhauma lila (or appearance of krsna on the earth) is crucial considering that you need to be born in bhauma lila to perfect your svarupa. Assuming that the bhauma lila did not actually happen historically, how do we actually place this? I spoke to one of the traditional CV just a week ago and he just kept on giving me rigid details of the spiritual world that completely mapped the culture of medieval India. I always find it hard to understand how Absolute can be completely captured to fine detail in one particular cultural appearance of a remote speck in the universe. Jagat gave a good summary of the biographies of Sri Chaitanya www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/topic_2332.html and there we see how people have different visions of Gadadhara, Svarupa Damodar etc and in fact the biographies write according to what they felt was right. How can people like us sort these inconsistencies out? When I went to Vrindavan and asked some traditional CVs, they just cited belief in one vision over (some arguing strongly about gaura lila in paravyoma, some against) the other without any good reason. Also there is a huge fear psychosis builit in biographies, you have to accept Nityananda or else you will be doomed much like Judeo-Christian texts. You made a good point about how Sri Chaitanya would not want to impose his conception by force, so he came in a hidden way perhaps. But the biographers do tend to play the offense card all the time to get complete allegiance to their version. For example, people who don't accept Sri Chaitanya are demons etc. How do we understand such statements? Yes, CV does debate these issues. As I suggested in a previous post, I don't think of them as anthropomorphic projections. I see them as efforts to express ideas and experiences that are not really expressible. If we want to register a perceived manner of existence beyond this cosmos that we inhabit we need to think of it in terms of some sort of space, because that is how we register modes of existence. Well, one can say that an idea is real, but no one really means it until that idea manifests itself in space-time. Take the idea of the USA. It is not a real idea until it begins to divide up the world into spaces and times and begins labeling beings as USA-born or not, as friend or foe, etc etc. So if we want to try to talk about a para-cosmic mode of existence we must do so crudely by making of use of ideas like vyoma (space or sky). I think it is harmless and maybe even fun. What else are we all going to do instead of doing bhajan? We have to spend our time somehow. Let's talk about whether there are cockroaches in Vaikuntha. Or, whether there is a special place for Mahaprabhu in Paravyoma. Of course, we should not ignore the political dimension of that latter debate. It is part of a struggle for power in the Vaisnava community. Those who deny Mahaprabhu's own place in Paravyoma are denying a particular community a place in the power structure. |
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Post by vkaul1 on Sept 20, 2011 12:14:06 GMT -6
I mean it is harmless, but the cartoon you had posted kind of makes fun of that idea . About the political struggle based on finding mahaprabhu's realm in paravyoma of which no one has objective certainity, is it really worth it? Swaminarayan has his own realm in paravyoma, according to his followers. Perhaps Jagatbandu has his own too. How can you argue and establish the existence of any of these realms objectively? Isn't it just a subjective psychic experience, which cannot be demonstrated onto-logically? Obviously, it is fun for us to talk about cockroaches etc, but for many people it is a serious debate and they are confident about all their answers on paravyoma etc. Is this confidence misplaced? |
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 20, 2011 12:27:59 GMT -6
I mean it is harmless, but the cartoon you had posted kind of makes fun of that idea . About the political struggle based on finding mahaprabhu's realm in paravyoma of which no one has objective certainity, is it really worth it? Swaminarayan has his own realm in paravyoma, according to his followers. Perhaps Jagatbandu has his own too. How can you argue and establish the existence of any of these realms objectively? Isn't it just a subjective psychic experience, which cannot be demonstrated ontologically? Well, it is if it gives you a place in the power structure. People look up to you, hear your opinions and respect them, take you seriously, give you land and money. That is what these debates are often about. The model, of course, is CV's having to defend itself against opposing traditions in order to remain in control of the Govindaji temple in Jaipur. Some such power issue is always involved, I think. It may not even be a subjective psychic experience. It may just be a selective reading of a text. Or, the simple recognition that power is slipping from your grip. Yes, the cartoon I posted makes fun of it and on a certain level it is laughable. The fact that these things are not in any sense objective makes it all the more easy to manipulate them and sometimes quite cleverly so. The imagination applied to inventing these things is incredible. Just as the Vaisnava Sankara was transformed into the Saiva Sankara by Vidyaranya in the 14th century, so we have cleverly inventive bhaktas working on remaking Mahaprabhu. Read the caritamrtas in chronological order and you will see what I mean. Krsnadas Kaviraja is our crowning glory. He is perhaps the Vidyaranya of CV. |
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Post by vkaul1 on Sept 20, 2011 12:40:59 GMT -6
I mean it is harmless, but the cartoon you had posted kind of makes fun of that idea . About the political struggle based on finding mahaprabhu's realm in paravyoma of which no one has objective certainity, is it really worth it? Swaminarayan has his own realm in paravyoma, according to his followers. Perhaps Jagatbandu has his own too. How can you argue and establish the existence of any of these realms objectively? Isn't it just a subjective psychic experience, which cannot be demonstrated ontologically? Well, it is if it gives you a place in the power structure. People look up to you, hear your opinions and respect them, take you seriously, give you land and money. That is what these debates are often about. The model, of course, is CV's having to defend itself against opposing traditions in order to remain in control of the Govindaji temple in Jaipur. Some such power issue is always involved, I think. It may not even be a subjective psychic experience. It may just be a selective reading of a text. Or, the simple recognition that power is slipping from your grip. Yes, the cartoon I posted makes fun of it and on a certain level it is laughable. The fact that these things are not in any sense objective makes it all the more easy to manipulate them and sometimes quite cleverly so. The imagination applied to inventing these things is incredible. Just as the Vaisnava Sankara was transformed into the Saiva Sankara by Vidyaranya in the 14th century, so we have cleverly inventive bhaktas working on remaking Mahaprabhu. Read the caritamrtas in chronological order and you will see what I mean. Krsnadas Kaviraja is our crowning glory. He is perhaps the Vidyaranya of CV. Krsnadas Kaviraja is our crowning glory . So we can just laugh at the humor of Sri Krsna and Sri Chaitanya in confusing people so that they cannot be found easily with 1000 different version of them and people fighting about the correctness of their version (if they exist in the way people think they do  . Certainly God has to be humorous and Krsna is the best bet. God cannot be serious because the way he has given confusing evidence all through, it is really impossible to get to him with certainty. Yet he wants people to have 100% faith in him. At least that is how Krsnadas presents it, if you don't believe in CM, you are a demon. Have to take it humorously . What do you think Nitai ji? |
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 20, 2011 13:27:34 GMT -6
Well, it is if it gives you a place in the power structure. People look up to you, hear your opinions and respect them, take you seriously, give you land and money. That is what these debates are often about. The model, of course, is CV's having to defend itself against opposing traditions in order to remain in control of the Govindaji temple in Jaipur. Some such power issue is always involved, I think. It may not even be a subjective psychic experience. It may just be a selective reading of a text. Or, the simple recognition that power is slipping from your grip. Yes, the cartoon I posted makes fun of it and on a certain level it is laughable. The fact that these things are not in any sense objective makes it all the more easy to manipulate them and sometimes quite cleverly so. The imagination applied to inventing these things is incredible. Just as the Vaisnava Sankara was transformed into the Saiva Sankara by Vidyaranya in the 14th century, so we have cleverly inventive bhaktas working on remaking Mahaprabhu. Read the caritamrtas in chronological order and you will see what I mean. Krsnadas Kaviraja is our crowning glory. He is perhaps the Vidyaranya of CV. Krsnadas Kaviraja is our crowning glory . So we can just laugh at the humor of Sri Krsna and Sri Chaitanya in confusing people so that they cannot be found easily with 1000 different version of them and people fighting about the correctness of their version (if they exist in the way people think they do . Certainly God has to be humorous and Krsna is the best bet. God cannot be serious because the way he has given confusing evidence all through, it is really impossible to get to him with certainty. Yet he wants people to have 100% faith in him. At least that is how Krsnadas presents it, if you don't believe in CM, you are a demon. Have to take it humorously . What do you think Nitai ji? Well, of course, I was being facetious. But, I don't think we need to get all worked up about it. We're all demons to some degree, because none of us really believe. Nor would Krsna really want such blind believers, I don't think. It is just as I was saying: politics. Our avatara is greater than yours, so we deserve a bigger slice of the pie. Krsnadas Kaviraj faced a different Vraja from the one that Sanatana faced when he arrived in around 1517 or so. In KdK's days there was lots of competition for support. He had to beat his drum louder than anyone before. It's forgivable, isn't it? He was a sweet old man by the time he finished the Cc and though he misrepresented Mahaprabhu in a thousand ways, he was transparent about it, allowing those of us who care to look through to the greater reality beneath. If we get all self-righteous about it what does it do but disturb our bhajan. We know he's wrong when he says that. Heck, he probably knew he was wrong, but hyperbole is a natural and irresistible Bengali trait. Let's not always be cutting people down. Let's find something positive to sing about. |
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Post by vkaul1 on Sept 20, 2011 13:41:01 GMT -6
Sorry Nitai ji.
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Post by Nitaidas on Sept 20, 2011 22:51:44 GMT -6
No problemo. I understand and share with you your desire not to be bullied around or frightened by mean-spirited authority figures in the name of some religion or other, especially not CV whose authorities are supposed to be filled with Krsna-prema. What kind of Krsna-prema would condone calling others demons, or cutting out their tongues? I objected to a verse from Prabodhananda recommending people be killed who criticize Vrndavana. I just don't see the love in it or rather I see s sort of self aggrandizement (See how much I love Vraja!). Several people disagreed with me and claimed they love the verse. I just don't see how. There must be a process of dehumanization at work here. Instead of being emptied of our selves we are being filled with them. That can't be good. |
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Post by malati on Sept 21, 2011 0:43:11 GMT -6
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Post by vkaul1 on Sept 21, 2011 1:03:35 GMT -6
I am sorry about that. I never meant to disrespect you or anything. I have given my friend your email address and asked him to contact you. I cannot do beyond that. Yes, I guess I am a coward. If it makes you happy to believe that about me that is fine.
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and if they are vegetarian 
. Certainly God has to be humorous and Krsna is the best bet. God cannot be serious because the way he has given confusing evidence all through, it is really impossible to get to him with certainty. Yet he wants people to have 100% faith in him. At least that is how Krsnadas presents it, if you don't believe in CM, you are a demon. Have to take it humorously 