mahaprabhu and his virgin birth

[vkaul1]

How do you view the birth of CM in CC Nitai ji(like it takes 13months etc for him to get birth?). In case of CM, there is a real birth in physical dimension unlike Krsna. Do you think it takes place using normal sexual intercourse or we have to believe in the miracle of virgin birth of 13 months much like Christians need to believe in the virgin birth? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births are everywhere. So is it alright to see them as a psychic view of the birth of CM, not physical one?

[Nitaidas]

Sept 8, 2011 9:36:57 GMT -6 vkaul1 said:

How do you view the birth of CM in CC Nitai ji(like it takes 13months etc for him to get birth?). In case of CM, there is a real birth in physical dimension unlike Krsna. Do you think it takes place using normal sexual intercourse or we have to believe in the miracle of virgin birth of 13 months much like Christians need to believe in the virgin birth? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births are everywhere. So is it alright to see them as a psychic view of the birth of CM, not physical one?

We don't have to believe any of this nonsense about virgin births. The miraculous details are just there to underline the importance of the event. In my view the fundamental mistake is to differentiate between the natural and supernatural. This dualism may have served a purpose once, but we have grown up and can now can face the truth of the fundamental unity of reality. What we have been calling matter as a kind of put down is really much more complex and complicated than that and includes what we have been calling the spiritual. Understanding that complexity and how it is represented and yes sometimes misrepresented in the CV texts is the job of our generation of Caitanya Vaisnavas. I've been reading a lot of Buddhism lately in pursuit of a better understanding of the idea that Bhagavatism is deeply indebted to Mayayana Buddhism. I will have more to say on that later. Also I have come to the conclusion that in order to better understand the Bhagavata itself one has to read Sankara's authentic works, since they both inhabit the same worldview. I will say more about that over at Vivekji's question on that interesting passage of the Bhagavata from the 11th Skandha.

Back to this question: Krsna's birth never really existed in my view. It only exists in texts as a focus for our meditations. So no question of a miraculous birth there. Mahaprabhu did have a birth and it was a natural one which was swept up into the powerful mythos of Krsna (again available texutally) by those who tried to understand him and his experiences. It has become one more nuanced layer of the already complex mythos of Krsna and Radha, the aim of which is to transform our vision of reality in the same way that the identification of samsara with nirvana in Mahayana was meant to do that in Buddhism. More on this later. I have more books to complete!

[vkaul1]

Thanks Nitai ji. I am waiting to hear more about this complex mythos of CM over the top of Radha and Krsna (where there is no natural event at all corresponding to their myth). To add to this soup, we have the concept of Pancha Tattva ( which got codified only later considering that there was no unanimity on the identity of Gadhadhar Pandit and Advaita Acarya before CC and Kavi Karnapura wrote a rigid code for all personalities compiled here www.radhakunda.com/personalities/krsna_lila.html. Complete belief in these identities is considered the mark of real faith in CV when I speak to either IGM or traditional CV) So I was just trying to understand how to understand these things in modern times, especially because no one in IGM or in traditional CV even addresses this issue. Obviously every sect including the Madhvas and Ramanujas have their set of identities of devotees that correspond to Prahlad etc and they also require adherence to those beliefs. I don't understand how Vaisnavism can make any interface with modern times with this kind of frozen belief system.