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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 23, 2011 10:38:23 GMT -6
And finally this on religion, specifically its connection to the economic conditions of believers. It appears that where there is a huge gap between the haves and the have-nots, there is more religion. Even the haves embrace it, because is secures their position from challenge in an inherently unjust system. Fascinating stuff. Anyone thinking Templeton? Here.
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Jul 25, 2011 11:31:19 GMT -6
And finally this on religion, specifically its connection to the economic conditions of believers. It appears that where there is a huge gap between the haves and the have-nots, there is more religion. Even the haves embrace it, because is secures their position from challenge in an inherently unjust system. Fascinating stuff. Anyone thinking Templeton? Here.It is true what you say, but I think it would be fair to expand the notion of economic misfortune to all kinds of misfortune coming from a temporal existence. Some people suffer drought, or hunger. It may or may not be related to poverty, because sometimes these prosperity turns to misfortune in cases of natural disaster. In the case of the more wealthy, as you say the 'haves', then they do sometimes also embrace religion for fear that that misfortune may befall them.
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Post by Ekantin on Jul 28, 2011 21:17:18 GMT -6
What can atheism offer? Only the idea that human beings are just billiard balls randomly moving about in a vacuum. Do you think that is helpful to the suffering, starving people in Eritrea? Of course, food is immediately needed but so does hope. Money cant buy happiness. Yet again, you have missed the point completely. Atheism is not meant to "offer" anything, it is simply a worldview that sees no need for supernatural explanations of any phenomena. What does religion have to offer starving people in Eritrea, by the way? The idea that they essentially deserve it because they are suffering the results of their karma, making them responsible for sins and things they know nothing about? Yes, that's very helpful to them, I guess. Neither atheism nor religion is about meeting the needs of starving people. The matter requires an economic solution, not a philosophical one.
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Jul 29, 2011 0:11:02 GMT -6
What can atheism offer? Only the idea that human beings are just billiard balls randomly moving about in a vacuum. Do you think that is helpful to the suffering, starving people in Eritrea? Of course, food is immediately needed but so does hope. Money cant buy happiness. Yet again, you have missed the point completely. Atheism is not meant to "offer" anything, it is simply a worldview that sees no need for supernatural explanations of any phenomena. What does religion have to offer starving people in Eritrea, by the way? The idea that they essentially deserve it because they are suffering the results of their karma, making them responsible for sins and things they know nothing about? Yes, that's very helpful to them, I guess. Well atheism does offer something to those in suffering. It offers them a chance to be proactive about their solution rather than waiting for a God to solve their problems. It offers them a view that does not contain any supernatural obstacles to confuse their situation and look for causes which do not exist. But I would say starving people do need a philosophical solution, not just economic. Give a man a fish to eat and he will be hungy in an hour. Teach a man to go fishing and he will be able to feed himself for a lifetime. Without an understanding of "why bad things happen in the world," people will never know how to avoid the calamity that they are in. I think better than an economic solution, and education is necessary. If you want it to be an atheistic education, then at least learning how to plan ahead will be useful to the people. Of course there are more direct relief situations in the face of extreme disaster, but even that, just a quick fix is not enough and could be harmful to the person, making them dependent on the system. That's why I like the "food for life" program so much. Give food with a smile, and when the meal is done, sit down next to them and let them know they are probably going to hell if they don't convert! If they don't listen, demand a donation for their next meal. No, okay, before someone slams me, I was just joking kinda, but I still think people need to understand karma, but just at the right time. (so after the meal is definitely better than before the meal) ;D.
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Post by Ekantin on Jul 29, 2011 21:21:32 GMT -6
Well atheism does offer something to those in suffering. It offers them a chance to be proactive about their solution rather than waiting for a God to solve their problems. It offers them a view that does not contain any supernatural obstacles to confuse their situation and look for causes which do not exist. Yup, I'll get on board with that. It's consonant with some of my own life experiences too, that whenever I have seen someone in some sort of suffering or distress their religious beliefs modulate their responses in such a way as if to be somewhat paralytic, almost always justifying their situation with variants of the "it's my karma and destiny" argument. So yeah, I'll agree that atheism at least removes the supernatural obstacles in this sort of thinking and at least allows for people to think of more practical and pro-active solutions.
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Jul 30, 2011 12:25:21 GMT -6
Well atheism does offer something to those in suffering. It offers them a chance to be proactive about their solution rather than waiting for a God to solve their problems. It offers them a view that does not contain any supernatural obstacles to confuse their situation and look for causes which do not exist. Yup, I'll get on board with that. Great! Welcome aboard But tell me, do you really disbelieve in the idea that poor people don't need philosophy at some point in their impoverished life? Do not the laws of karma appeal to you?
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Post by Ekantin on Aug 1, 2011 21:34:03 GMT -6
But tell me, do you really disbelieve in the idea that poor people don't need philosophy at some point in their impoverished life? Do not the laws of karma appeal to you? It's not so much my disbelief, but it just strikes me that people who live a hand-to-mouth existence don't have much time in their lives for philosophy? I was thinking more from their perspectives rather than mine, hope that clarifies.
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kalki
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Post by kalki on Aug 1, 2011 22:25:40 GMT -6
But tell me, do you really disbelieve in the idea that poor people don't need philosophy at some point in their impoverished life? Do not the laws of karma appeal to you? It's not so much my disbelief, but it just strikes me that people who live a hand-to-mouth existence don't have much time in their lives for philosophy? I was thinking more from their perspectives rather than mine, hope that clarifies. Well sure I think I got this from the first time you brought it up. I suggested a different approach. We can feed people and satisfy their immediate needs, but does that mean to continue that way of seeking a solution and forget about karma? Is not the full belly of rich man the same as the full belly of a poor man? At least in that moment if they are both able to see things as they in the moment and forget about the past, present, and future. Otherwise I believe you are saying two beliefs. You may believe in karma from your perspective, but from their perspective, you don't believe in karma, because they don't want to accept it. But a third option may be not to see it from your perspective or their perspective but "karma's perspective." In other words, the famous argument applies here...a child who puts his hand in the fire will get burned whether he likes it or not. So I believe if we do believe in karma, then some how or other the belief has to reach everyone by some means. If we don't believe in karma, then that is another story all together. But I would like to say, that their are plenty of desperate and poor people out there who are hungry, that do believe that their misfortune is due to karma at the mercy of the hand of God. Some of these people would not be shaked even at the sight of a bacon double cheeseburger from Burger King.
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