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Post by maasikdharma on Jul 13, 2010 19:26:24 GMT -6
Priyamvada Malati,
I think you must have my moniker confused with someone else's comment because I don't see how anything you wrote applies to my comment?
Nitai: apana bhajana-katha na kahiba jatha tatha
Hence vaishnavas might be relunctant to share on the internet. And several of the diary-keeping bhajan-walles don't have internet access or know-how anyway, they would be in India.
But yeah, if anyone does keep such, is open to sharing and wants to publish or post, it would probably be a good and useful read.
What about you? Have you ever kept bhajan journals?
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 16, 2010 13:49:31 GMT -6
Malati-di, several times in your posts you have referred to "group-think." You have mentioned encountering it in India with unfavorable results. Kindly explain what you mean by that and how it affected you. We are, or we try to be, independent thinkers here. I am, for instance, willing to consider atheism as consistent or at least not inconsistent with CV. But, group-think is a vague term. I would like to understand better what you mean by it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2010 23:54:25 GMT -6
>>>"Jagadish is still here working on his house. It should be quite nice once it is complete. I said that I would talk about that house more. His plan is to turn it into a retreat center where bhaktas can come to do intense practice for a couple of weeks, a couple of months, or a couple of years. It all depends. It is in a nice quiet part of Kirksville and is surrounded by trees. it has a huge back yard which J is filling up with bushes and eventually fruit trees. The idea is that he will teach those who come how to do sadacara (observe ritual purity) and bhajan. There will be daily kirtans as well. I have agreed to have classes in the Bhagavata and other bhakti scriptures for the residents of the retreat center. Is there any one here who is interested in such a program? There are rules and restrictions, of course. Maybe Jagadish can post something on those."
It would be great if Jagdish Ji could give us a rundown of the rules, restrictions and expectations for his ashram and a little more info on the facilities. Otherwise, it would be hard for someone to make a decision to relocate all the way to Kirksville.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 17, 2010 11:34:15 GMT -6
Jagadish is currently in Hawaii, I believe. Or, perhaps he is back by now. I am sure he will get on here soon and talk more about his ideas for the retreat center. Yes, it is a big deal traveling all the way to K-ville to do a retreat. Jagadish has cultivated several interested parties through his work in St Louis. So, for them it is not a big deal, but coming from other parts of the country or world is.
This part of Missouri may be one of the last sections of the US that is still relatively cheap as far as land is concerned (J bought that house and land for a song). Jagadish and I came close on several occasions to buying some lovely acreage. There is also an abandoned school that we almost got for a dollar. The difficulty would have been finding the funding to fix it up. It needed some serious repairs. Still, it could have been made into apartments and offices for the Ecological Society. It had a theatre on the top floor, for movies and dramatic performances, a big gym (basketball court) in the basement for music, dance, etc. There would have been space for cafes, a library, stores and an art gallery. And of course a temple room in one of the bigger classrooms on an upper floor. The idea was to blend community activities with the work of the ecological society and have an inner core of CV empowering it all. A multi-layered affair with something for everyone. CV would be there but not aggressively or confrontational. An inner core of bhaktas would maintain the Thakur seva and kirtanas and to do bhajan. Cafes, stores, library, health spa would be open to all. Some apartments for rent to college students. Music, plays and other activities for the rest of the community. Ecological work in the sense of making that building as ecologically sound as possible with sun panels, wind-generators, good insulation. Make the building a kind of show place for cutting edge green technology. Also ecological in the sense of being the center for efforts to purchase land for preservation and protection and if necessary rehabilitation.
We walked through the place twice, but wound up walking away from it. It would have absorbed all our time and effort for the next five years and probably not gotten off the ground in the end. Still, it was a grand idea and opportunity. I sometimes wonder what if we had taken that leap.
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Post by JD33 on Jul 17, 2010 15:14:08 GMT -6
Pretty much like any other Hindu Ashram: Vegetarianism, kindness and respect amongst people living there, plus shared duties and utility expenses. Residents will buy there own food items. Open to CV practioners (and students of mine) who will be doing full days worth of Sadhana, including Japa meditation, Kirtan and Sankirtan, Worship, study, and seva. Both Men and Women and possibly kids (depending on how well it goes). Residents must start their day by 4am and quiet time after 9pm......... People can do their meals together or alone as desired.
Right now the above - if it gets bigger - then somethings will change....... like group meals only........ set kirtan schedule..... and utilities might be paid for by the nonprofit......
Someone who wants to live there should write to me and introduce themselves.
It is a two bedroom, one bath house with a huge backyard.......... utilities are from $40 per month to $300 (in winter) excluding phone service, that would be shared equally by all who live there.
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Post by maasikdharma on Jul 17, 2010 16:12:08 GMT -6
Residents must start their day by 4amThat leaves me out!  Oh well......
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Post by malati on Jul 18, 2010 16:31:00 GMT -6
Malati-di, several times in your posts you have referred to "group-think." You have mentioned encountering it in India with unfavorable results. Kindly explain what you mean by that and how it affected you. We are, or we try to be, independent thinkers here. I am, for instance, willing to consider atheism as consistent or at least not inconsistent with CV. But, group-think is a vague term. I would like to understand better what you mean by it. Sorry for this late reply. I’ve actually read your post earlier and was thinking if I should just write a few lines and get done over with or take it further. I decided that I just stick to the points of your post. Otherwise I might be seen as someone spilling the beans just like so many other western devotees who have left. Firstly, thank you for letting us express our views uncensored here. Reading your post made me sad as you seemed to diverge way way off the “orthodox” CV path. Your honesty though is commendable. I’m sadder still because you see a connection between atheism and the Krishna lila philosophy. In my opinion, the connection you are trying to make is erroneous. But of course, you have your own opinion too. And in your forum we have agreed that dissenting opinions are allowed. In my opinion, although the gopis and the manjaris forget in the lila that Krishna is God, his existence is never extinguished. It’s like when I’m dreaming, I may not seem to know that I exist, still my existence is a reality. I’m not sure why you want know what my experience with group think within GV community. Surely that can not be used as an ammunition against GV because the truth of GVism is independent of the behaviour of its practitioners. I think I have used this example before” just because there are abusive relationship in marriage does not invalidate the truth of love.” Group think, is not only found within organized religion. Political expediency also resorts to group think. I’m rather reluctant to discuss details in public which is in keeping with my personal tendency—I hate rehashing unpleasant event, so I’ll give a general account. I came to India early this year very enthused about my personal project. However there were a group of people there that I got involved with who seemed to still perpetuate centuries old resentment about other group. And the sad fact was that they think I should do the same so they discouraged me in my effort . My use of the word “discourage” is mild because in fact there is more to the story. In another experience unrelated to the one above, a disciple of a prominent sadhu expressed displeasure when I told him I’m going to include another guru in my project. While still in the dhama I made a conscious decision that I want out from this kind of mentality which is ever potentiality present in an organized religion. Organized religion , by its very nature, is antithetical to individuality. Organized religion is about conformity and cohesion. Being individual is about understanding what makes sense to you whether that knowledge is derived from your own observation or given in a platter by a guru. |
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Post by malati on Jul 18, 2010 16:44:49 GMT -6
Residents must start their day by 4amThat leaves me out! Oh well...... The idea is wonderful and I'd be very interested to visit . However, like Maaasikdharma I find it too structured for my taste. Of course there should be a program but I think it'd be more natural if participants have the freedom to choose what part of the program they wish to attend or what time they have to do their sadhana/bhajan and where. Not that I can not wake up at 4 AM because I have lived in ISKCON for sometime and attended ISKCON retreats and I had no problem waking up that early. |
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Post by maasikdharma on Jul 18, 2010 16:57:19 GMT -6
Malati, you said, "I’m rather reluctant to discuss details in public which is in keeping with my personal tendency"...
That was my point about "bhajan diaries" as well. Journals and diaries are private by nature, bhajan diaries probably even more so.
While a few vaishnavas might be willing to share portions of them on the internet, I doubt many would.
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Post by malati on Jul 18, 2010 17:24:01 GMT -6
Malati, you said, "I’m rather reluctant to discuss details in public which is in keeping with my personal tendency"... That was my point about "bhajan diaries" as well. Journals and diaries are private by nature, bhajan diaries probably even more so. While a few vaishnavas might be willing to share portions of them on the internet, I doubt many would. Haribol Well yes, no one here on CS has given a blow by blow detail of their bhajan. Nitaidas gave a sort of a topical summary. I gave a general summary of what might a day like for me. I believe I was consistent with myself. The question is where do you draw the line? Is japa not sadhana/bhajan? Even non-devotees can hear and see devotees doing japa. Ratha Yatra is paraded among people hostile to God. RY as a God consciousness enhancing activity is also a type of sadhana. I think there are more important issues to pay attention to than defining what constitute divulging our own sadhana/bhajan. At least we should be glad that someone is trying to do sadhan. Still I wish you well. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 19, 2010 9:38:18 GMT -6
Masikadharma does not seem to realize that I have already opened a forum for sadhana diaries and have started one of my own. I do not write in it daily, but I try to write once or twice a week. I am still laying out my program. But once that is done I will start recording my reflections and experiences in the diary. I regard it in a somewhat experimental way. I just finished reading Aldous Huxley's Doors of Experience and I want to try to do something like that only with increased sadhana in place of the mescalin. They ar both consciousness altering phenomena. It is good to track the progress of that alteration.
It is also a way to get me to increase my sadhana and to reflect on it in ways I have not in the past. So it is not so much me divulging my secrets as a way for me to become more serious about my sadhana. I just turned 60. In twenty years perhaps (if I am lucky) I will be dead. Before then I have to make some serious progress in reconditioning myself to remember Krsna. This is one of the ways I think I might be able to do it. Others are welcome to try it too, again as a way of becoming more serious about one's sadhana. I think time is sapping your energies and mental powers too.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 19, 2010 10:37:46 GMT -6
Malati-di, several times in your posts you have referred to "group-think." You have mentioned encountering it in India with unfavorable results. Kindly explain what you mean by that and how it affected you. We are, or we try to be, independent thinkers here. I am, for instance, willing to consider atheism as consistent or at least not inconsistent with CV. But, group-think is a vague term. I would like to understand better what you mean by it. Sorry for this late reply. I’ve actually read your post earlier and was thinking if I should just write a few lines and get done over with or take it further. I decided that I just stick to the points of your post. Otherwise I might be seen as someone spilling the beans just like so many other western devotees who have left. Firstly, thank you for letting us express our views uncensored here. Reading your post made me sad as you seemed to diverge way way off the “orthodox” CV path. Your honesty though is commendable. I’m sadder still because you see a connection between atheism and the Krishna lila philosophy. In my opinion, the connection you are trying to make is erroneous. But of course, you have your own opinion too. And in your forum we have agreed that dissenting opinions are allowed. In my opinion, although the gopis and the manjaris forget in the lila that Krishna is God, his existence is never extinguished. It’s like when I’m dreaming, I may not seem to know that I exist, still my existence is a reality. I’m not sure why you want know what my experience with group think within GV community. Surely that can not be used as an ammunition against GV because the truth of GVism is independent of the behaviour of its practitioners. I think I have used this example before” just because there are abusive relationship in marriage does not invalidate the truth of love.” Group think, is not only found within organized religion. Political expediency also resorts to group think. I’m rather reluctant to discuss details in public which is in keeping with my personal tendency—I hate rehashing unpleasant event, so I’ll give a general account. I came to India early this year very enthused about my personal project. However there were a group of people there that I got involved with who seemed to still perpetuate centuries old resentment about other group. And the sad fact was that they think I should do the same so they discouraged me in my effort . My use of the word “discourage” is mild because in fact there is more to the story. In another experience unrelated to the one above, a disciple of a prominent sadhu expressed displeasure when I told him I’m going to include another guru in my project. While still in the dhama I made a conscious decision that I want out from this kind of mentality which is ever potentiality present in an organized religion. Organized religion , by its very nature, is antithetical to individuality. Organized religion is about conformity and cohesion. Being individual is about understanding what makes sense to you whether that knowledge is derived from your own observation or given in a platter by a guru. Thanks for your honest response, Malati. I hope my response will be even more honest. First of all, I must say that I don't think that anyone here including myself or anyone I have ever met or read really knows what "orthodox" CV is. What gets passed off as orthodox CV is really some form of that group think that you so much deplore. I deplore it as well. I hope you have recognized the inconsistency in your own response. First you employ a form of group think which you call orthodox CV to feel saddened at my position on atheism and then you go on to lament the way your project was sunk by sectarian group thinkers who think they know what is "orthodox" because you wanted to include a guru from a different group. This is so typical and flagrant that I am surprised that you didn't recognize it as the same tendency you bought into so comfortably at the beginning of your response. Here is my take on the tradition we are part of, my sense of the orthodox if you will. At the very core of CV, in my view, is a movement against religion and against theism. At the core of the Caitanya teaching is the vidhi-raga distinction and the aisvarya-madhurya distinction. The first speaks to the position on religion and the second the position on theism. Vidha-marga is essentially the way of religion as the reliance on "commandments" in Western religion so ably demonstrates. Hinduism is no better. Aisvarya is the very essence of theism. It comes from the very word for god, Isvara. Both tendencies, religion and theism, have been detrimental to the full development and expression of human potential. History is my evidence. Religion has kept the human race in poverty and ignorance and theism has kept human thought and activity stunted for centuries. Mahaprabhu and his followers have given humankind a chance to throw off these mental diseases. But very few have taken advantage of this opportunity. Very quickly the movement of Mahaprabhu got turned back into the same old, same old. Within a century it was regarded as a "religion" and Mahaprabhu was worshiped as a god. It is sad to see how strong the grip of these evil tendencies is on human beings. Anyway, there is much more to say on these matters and I imagine over the next few years I will say it. Suffice it to say for the moment, that I find atheists enormously honest and theists enormously dishonest in today's public discourse. I am not talking about babajis in the groves of Vraja who never really think about these things. They are busy taking the antidote to religion and theism, whether they know it or not. I too want to be busily taking that antidote. That is the point of my interest in increased sadhana and in recording the progress made along that path. |
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Post by malati on Jul 20, 2010 4:32:21 GMT -6
Sorry for this late reply. I’ve actually read your post earlier and was thinking if I should just write a few lines and get done over with or take it further. I decided that I just stick to the points of your post. Otherwise I might be seen as someone spilling the beans just like so many other western devotees who have left. Firstly, thank you for letting us express our views uncensored here. Reading your post made me sad as you seemed to diverge way way off the “orthodox” CV path. Your honesty though is commendable. I’m sadder still because you see a connection between atheism and the Krishna lila philosophy. In my opinion, the connection you are trying to make is erroneous. But of course, you have your own opinion too. And in your forum we have agreed that dissenting opinions are allowed. In my opinion, although the gopis and the manjaris forget in the lila that Krishna is God, his existence is never extinguished. It’s like when I’m dreaming, I may not seem to know that I exist, still my existence is a reality. I’m not sure why you want know what my experience with group think within GV community. Surely that can not be used as an ammunition against GV because the truth of GVism is independent of the behaviour of its practitioners. I think I have used this example before” just because there are abusive relationship in marriage does not invalidate the truth of love.” Group think, is not only found within organized religion. Political expediency also resorts to group think. I’m rather reluctant to discuss details in public which is in keeping with my personal tendency—I hate rehashing unpleasant event, so I’ll give a general account. I came to India early this year very enthused about my personal project. However there were a group of people there that I got involved with who seemed to still perpetuate centuries old resentment about other group. And the sad fact was that they think I should do the same so they discouraged me in my effort . My use of the word “discourage” is mild because in fact there is more to the story. In another experience unrelated to the one above, a disciple of a prominent sadhu expressed displeasure when I told him I’m going to include another guru in my project. While still in the dhama I made a conscious decision that I want out from this kind of mentality which is ever potentiality present in an organized religion. Organized religion , by its very nature, is antithetical to individuality. Organized religion is about conformity and cohesion. Being individual is about understanding what makes sense to you whether that knowledge is derived from your own observation or given in a platter by a guru. Thanks for your honest response, Malati. I hope my response will be even more honest. First of all, I must say that I don't think that anyone here including myself or anyone I have ever met or read really knows what "orthodox" CV is. What gets passed off as orthodox CV is really some form of that group think that you so much deplore. I deplore it as well. I hope you have recognized the inconsistency in your own response. First you employ a form of group think which you call orthodox CV to feel saddened at my position on atheism and then you go on to lament the way your project was sunk by sectarian group thinkers who think they know what is "orthodox" because you wanted to include a guru from a different group. This is so typical and flagrant that I am surprised that you didn't recognize it as the same tendency you bought into so comfortably at the beginning of your response. Here is my take on the tradition we are part of, my sense of the orthodox if you will. At the very core of CV, in my view, is a movement against religion and against theism. At the core of the Caitanya teaching is the vidhi-raga distinction and the aisvarya-madhurya distinction. The first speaks to the position on religion and the second the position on theism. Vidha-marga is essentially the way of religion as the reliance on "commandments" in Western religion so ably demonstrates. Hinduism is no better. Aisvarya is the very essence of theism. It comes from the very word for god, Isvara. Both tendencies, religion and theism, have been detrimental to the full development and expression of human potential. History is my evidence. Religion has kept the human race in poverty and ignorance and theism has kept human thought and activity stunted for centuries. Mahaprabhu and his followers have given humankind a chance to throw off these mental diseases. But very few have taken advantage of this opportunity. Very quickly the movement of Mahaprabhu got turned back into the same old, same old. Within a century it was regarded as a "religion" and Mahaprabhu was worshiped as a god. It is sad to see how strong the grip of these evil tendencies is on human beings. Anyway, there is much more to say on these matters and I imagine over the next few years I will say it. Suffice it to say for the moment, that I find atheists enormously honest and theists enormously dishonest in today's public discourse. I am not talking about babajis in the groves of Vraja who never really think about these things. They are busy taking the antidote to religion and theism, whether they know it or not. I too want to be busily taking that antidote. That is the point of my interest in increased sadhana and in recording the progress made along that path. As a scholar, you know that there is a thread that runs through the fabric of any worldview. Cvism is not exempt from that. And the thread is this: that Krishna is the all attractive God who has all the maximal attributes that we can ever think of and one that we can have a personal relationship with. I think GM, ISKCON, the Babajis and the practitioners who studied the tradition carefully are in total agreement with that ground philosophy. I believe you will be hard press to find a scholar or a practitioner of CVism who will deny that it is a theistic belief system. Of course if you are relativizing, you can view it differently. You can make a case for atheistic-CVism, alright. And how can anyone argue with that? But from relativizing one can also make a case for atheistic-Islam. Or atheistic-Jainism. But why should you stop at atheistic-CVism when everything else is valid? I believe I am not inconsistent when I said I reject groupthink. I think you used the term very loosely. To abide by the fundamental teachings of CVism is not group-thinking. Before a system can become CVism it should have some fundamental teachings to differentiate it from Sri Vaishnavism, for example. And this is just the way of the world of ideas. Groupthinking is when one loses the ability to analyze and evaluate ideas. I do subscribe to the fundamentals because I am a personalist-theist. Other than that I use my god given faculties of reasoning, logic and common sense to make sense of the ideas within the parameters of its fundamental teachings. Anyhow, I wish you all the best and may you find what you are looking for. I still respect and like you despite our differences in understanding the Krishna siddhanta. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 21, 2010 11:22:55 GMT -6
Malati:As a scholar, you know that there is a thread that runs through the fabric of any worldview. Cvism is not exempt from that. And the thread is this: that Krishna is the all attractive God who has all the maximal attributes that we can ever think of and one that we can have a personal relationship with.
I am afraid you may have misidentified me here. I am not really a scholar, but much of what I have to say is based on my own readings of scripture (in the original not in some mistranslation) and my own realizations. But, surely you are wrong in this analogy. There is not a single thread that runs through a fabric; there are many threads. It is this myopia that can only recognize a single thing that I most ardently object to in modern CV. A fabric is made of many threads some running lengthwise and some running crosswise and it is not in my opinion reducible to that one thread you have identified. Yes, Krsna is all-attractive and yes we can have a personal relationship with him, but what role does his god-ness play in that? Isn't it superfluous? Does it matter? If it matters, aren't you saying that you love him only because he is god? What kind of love is that? If he is not god you will not love him? I find that view particularly offensive and I imagine that Krsna would too. He wants our unconditional love and your condition is that he be god. That seems tremendously selfish. It seems as if you want to love him because of what he can do for you. As god, he can protect you and save you and give you things in the same way that having a rich or powerful friend can be advantageous. In other words, the element of godness or aisvarya brings in an element of distortion into our relationship with Krsna. It can't help but introduce an a dimension of selfish and self-adulation. "Look at me I am a friend or a lover of Krsna!" Better to leave that part out altogether. We don't even know what being God means. Krsna has gone out of his way to remove himself from that category. to approach us on a personal level, and we who think we know better want to stuff him in back in it.
Mahaprabhu came not to start a new religion or to establish "the" religion, but to free us from the monstrosity of religion. That you can probably agree with, since you seem down on religion after your recent experiences in India. That he also came to free us from the mental disease of theism is what you choke on and I understand. It takes a lot of meditation and deep thought to see that. That is something that one can only see from the vantage point of our present age. That could not be seen from the 16th or 17th centuries. That we had to learn from science and scientists and from modern atheists. They are powerful manifestations of the guru.
As far as those others go, I doubt whether any of them have really studied the tradition carefully. I don't think the IGMers are even part of our tradition; so we don't have to waste our time with them. And studying the tradition is not half as important as practicing the tradition. Most of those who busy themselves with god-talk are people who don't do enough practice. They don't even know what they are talking about most of the time. They just regurgitate scripture as if that is all they are supposed to do. You are right about one thing, though. They are not really part of any group-think. They are actually part of a group-no-think. They conspire to keep from thinking. This anti-intellectualism in modern CV is another deplorable development. it bypasses an important part of our sadhana. The Upanisad says drastavyah zrotavyo mantavyo nididhyasitavyah. Mantavya means that one should think about what one has heard, not just accept it blindly. Anti-intellectualism is meant to enslave the masses of their followers. Now I am speaking generally here and don't have anyone particular in mind. And there are always exceptions to the rule. Still, I think it is time we open our eyes and see what is what.
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Post by malati on Jul 21, 2010 15:54:35 GMT -6
Hi Nitaidasji
I didnt read your reply because I can't be bothered with it.
You are of course, entitled to your opinion. I dont agree on most of what Dawkins says but he least does not need a story to support his atheism.
I honestly wish you all the best.
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