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Post by maasikdharma on Jun 28, 2010 12:11:22 GMT -6
Nitai, I need a (good) word for word translation of Chakravarti Thakur's tika of the Bhagavat, at least dasam skanda.
Word for word - no extra personal commentary.
Any tips?
It's such a loss that this was not done with the BBT translations.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 30, 2010 0:12:14 GMT -6
Nitai, I need a (good) word for word translation of Chakravarti Thakur's tika of the Bhagavat, at least dasam skanda. Word for word - no extra personal commentary. Any tips? It's such a loss that this was not done with the BBT translations. Humm. Well, there is no English translation of it as far as I know. The edition that Subrataji mentioned by Manindranath Guha (actually largely done by his wife, I would presume) has Visvanatha's commentary in it with a Bengali translation. Do you read Bengali? Why the insistence on Visvanatha? Are you looking for something in particular? The rasika perspective? I can't think of any other immediate options. Eventually our edition/translation would contain it. I don't think I have VC's commentary to the whole text at present., but I do have a chunk of the 10th Skandha. BBT translations are highly presumptuous
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 30, 2010 0:16:44 GMT -6
Thanks for the kind words in your now vanished posting, buddysattva. I hope the disappearance of your post does not amount to a retraction. Hi to R and K for me.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 30, 2010 0:40:27 GMT -6
It has occurred to be that it would be useful if someone kept a journal while performing intense sadhana (at least a lakh a day, or better three, two hours of kirtan, and daily scripture reading, etc). Books like the Madhurya-kadambini of VC are nice formal accounts of the stages in the development of prema-bhakti, but they kind of lack realism. Besides, the psychological landscape that informs those accounts is out of date and has been superseded by modern psychological studies. They are more like mythologies than they are descriptions of real psychological experiences. We need a real account or perhaps several real accounts of the journey into the realm of preman by sensitive, observant writers who can describe what they feel, see and hear. I have been reading Huxley's Doors of Perception recently. Perhaps that is where the idea comes from. He describes his mescalin experiences and the realizations he arrives at as a result of his experimentation. Something similar only more detailed and sustained on the changes wrought by sadhana would be a great help and encouragement to modern sadhakas and sadhikas.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 10:09:00 GMT -6
Jay Nitai,
Dear Nitai Das Ji perhaps you were refering something like "SadGuru Sanga Prasanga" by Kuladananda Brahmachari which is basically diary he maintained for everydays experience about his progress in sadhana and his Guru Deva Sri Vija Krishna Goswami's pastimes. That is really on the front of yogic path and from the Bhakti Path is really little risky to share such account since there is a word of caution from Narattama Das thakur "Apan Bhajan Katha Na kahibe Jatha tatha".
Perhaps once one become realized / sidhdha and possess the quality of acharyya can write and share such account such as Viswanatha Chakrabarty Thakur.
But I would still think the analysis in Madhyakadambini are still relevant in its core and that is eternal, only the example may need to be modernize inorder for help modern sadhaka's understaning and identification with his own circumstances, that too is subjective depending on Desh/Kal/Patr ( Country/time/Self).
Jay Nitai
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 2, 2010 10:46:07 GMT -6
Jay Nitai, Dear Nitai Das Ji perhaps you were refering something like "SadGuru Sanga Prasanga" by Kuladananda Brahmachari which is basically diary he maintained for everydays experience about his progress in sadhana and his Guru Deva Sri Vija Krishna Goswami's pastimes. That is really on the front of yogic path and from the Bhakti Path is really little risky to share such account since there is a word of caution from Narattama Das thakur "Apan Bhajan Katha Na kahibe Jatha tatha". Perhaps once one become realized / sidhdha and possess the quality of acharyya can write and share such account such as Viswanatha Chakrabarty Thakur. But I would still think the analysis in Madhyakadambini are still relevant in its core and that is eternal, only the example may need to be modernize inorder for help modern sadhaka's understaning and identification with his own circumstances, that too is subjective depending on Desh/Kal/Patr ( Country/time/Self). Jay Nitai Yes, Subrataji, that is a good example of what I had in mind. I have collected those volumes because of what they reveal about Prabhupad Bijayakrishna Goswami who was Sri Kuladananda Brahmacari's guru. There is a good deal of yoga mixed in with Kuladananda's journal. Still, Bhakti is a yogic path and we use many of the yogic techniques such as yama, niyama, asana, pranayama, dharana, and dhyana as part of our sadhana. Savikalpa and nirvikalpa samadhi are replaced by bhava and prema in the yoga of Bhakti, but other than that many of the disciplines associated with yoga are equally useful in Bhakti. For instance, we do asana and pranayama before doing mantra-smarana. Don't you do the same? I have even seen reference to the awakening of the kundalini in the sadhana of Bhakti. You make a good point about being circumspect in one's discussion of one's own bhajan. I am not recommending that everything be told. Certainly, some aspects of one's bhajan are too confidential. But there are many aspects of the process that will be useful to others even if one does not become siddha. Accounts of the path that merely quote scripture are disappointing to me. They indicate that the understanding of the author is merely theoretical and not experiential. Theoretical presentations are fine up to a point, but they succeed in presenting only a general understanding of the path. The details, the ups and downs, the struggles and failures, the small and large successes are all left out. I think the lived experiences of the practitioner brings the path to life and makes it seem less remote and unapproachable. Anyway, even if one only keeps a sadhana diary for one's own benefit and/or shows it only to a few close friends whom one trusts, it strikes me as useful. Beyond that I think an experiential account of one's sadhana or bhajan can help to inspire others to try it and persevere at it. How many people have been inspired by the Authobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda? Something along those lines by a bhakta would be wonderful. We do have accounts of the lives of the siddhas like the one that Jagadish and I are working on and of course, those collected by Haridas Das and Dr Kapoor. Those are indeed inspiring, but those are all snapshots taken from the outside by disciples or companions. Who knows what was really going on in the minds and perceptions of the siddhas as sadhakas? Now I don't mean any offense to VC or to Sri Ananta Das Babaji or to Jan, but I started to read Jan's re-worked (originally done by Advaita das) translation of the Madhurya-kadamdini and I am sorry to say that I find it almost unreadable. Jagadish also informs me that ordinary people to whom he has given or shown the book also find it so. We need something more literary and inspiring.
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Post by malati on Jul 6, 2010 5:50:14 GMT -6
Nitaidasji
Can you explain how you find Jan's version of Madhurya Kadambini.
I have the book but I only got to reading it half-way because I find the style boring. I didnt feel a natural flow to the ideas. It's like reading a textbook. Maybe they were aiming for that. I dont know. Were they just translating it from the original?
I would be very interested in any of your recent work, might even buy it.
( btw, I have replied to your reply in my vegan thread)
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 6, 2010 13:01:44 GMT -6
Jan's version of the Madhurya-kadambini is dry as a bone. I don't know why it is so, but I find it impossible to read. Too much technical language. There seems to be no life in it, no passion. One gets theoretical knowledge, but no practical knowledge. This what I was getting at earlier when I was lamenting the fact that we have no accounts of sadhana by real practitioners, no sadhana diaries. I invite our sadhakas/sadhikas to post daily or weekly accounts of what they experienced during their sadhana sessions. Even if nothing is experienced, that is an important thing to consider. One can then ask oneself: "Why is nothing happening? What can I do to improve things. What fills my mind instead of Krsna when I do japa? How can I change that?, Etc. etc" Sadhana is the most important thing we do. We should help each other do it better. I think I will start to keep a sadhana diary and I will share parts of it with the members here. Look for a new section of the forum focused on that.
I will also try to do better with my version of the Mk with the commentary of Prabhupada Shyamlal Gosvamin.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2010 9:20:27 GMT -6
Jay Nitai,
Nitai das Ji any idea where I can get that version of MK with the commentary of Prabhupada Shyamlal Gosvamin. I would look for the original bengali version.
Thanks in advance.
Jay Nitai
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 7, 2010 10:06:38 GMT -6
Jay Nitai, Nitai das Ji any idea where I can get that version of MK with the commentary of Prabhupada Shyamlal Gosvamin. I would look for the original bengali version. Thanks in advance. Jay Nitai Once again, I can make a copy for you. It is an old book and probably no longer easily available. I know you have been waiting patiently for the other items I promised to copy for you. The summer has been crazy so far, but now I am at home for a while and can put those things plus the MK in the mail to you. Please send me a private note giving your current mailing address and I will try to get them in the mail by the end of the week. Thanks for your tremendous patience with me.
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Post by malati on Jul 10, 2010 21:46:17 GMT -6
I was meaning to ask you about Jagadish's project. Surely many devotees will be happy to have a centre like that in the U.S and will be supportive in many ways, of that kind project.
As I haven't been to the states, I have long been wanting to visit there -- I have relatives and friends living there. Should my plan materializes, I surely will visit the centre. Let's see if my finances are ok enough for me to be able to travel in the near future.
Is it already operational? How would it operate? The project shows a great promise for devotees outside of GM/ISKCON especially US devotees, to find a place to recharge their spiritual battery. What is giving me some thought is the idea that it might just turn out to be another ISKCON temple. You know where there is too much hierarchical authority, where control over another devotee is the order of the day. I think however, if the set up is like a retreat centre where there is free-flow of realizations betweens devotees and users pay to use the facility then maybe that kind of ISKCON scenario will be avoided.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 11, 2010 16:29:09 GMT -6
I was meaning to ask you about Jagadish's project. Surely many devotees will be happy to have a centre like that in the U.S and will be supportive in many ways, of that kind project. As I haven't been to the states, I have long been wanting to visit there -- I have relatives and friends living there. Should my plan materializes, I surely will visit the centre. Let's see if my finances are ok enough for me to be able to travel in the near future. Is it already operational? How would it operate? The project shows a great promise for devotees outside of GM/ISKCON especially US devotees, to find a place to recharge their spiritual battery. What is giving me some thought is the idea that it might just turn out to be another ISKCON temple. You know where there is too much hierarchical authority, where control over another devotee is the order of the day. I think however, if the set up is like a retreat centre where there is free-flow of realizations betweens devotees and users pay to use the facility then maybe that kind of ISKCON scenario will be avoided. Hopefully, Jagadish will say something more about his projects. He has been working on them for years and things have been going slowly. He is currently refurbishing a house here in K-ville. That is not complete yet. It may take another month or two. He will be coming back here at the end of the month to finish the job. That will be the first retreat center. Naturally, there will be rules for retreaters and it will cost something to pay for food and things, but none of that ISKCON power tripping. The focus will be doing intense sadhana: lots of nama-japa (at least a lakh) , kirtan and puja. He also does spiritual healing, though I don't know if that is part of his retreat. He has two other pieces of land that he wants to develop in similar ways: land in Hawaii and some land in Colorado. They are completely undeveloped at present. He is currently in Hawaii wrapping up some business. He is going to visit the land and take some pictures. I think he wants to develop that into a more permanent ashram, rather than a retreat center. We have talked about bringing over certain babajis to lead and teach kirtan and maybe also to teach astakaliya-seva. Everything depends on how much money is available. It would be great it you were able to visit the USA. I hope you would pay a visit here. You would always be welcome. Perhaps by then Jagadish would have his retreat center operating too.
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Post by maasikdharma on Jul 13, 2010 8:19:46 GMT -6
There are contemporary vaishnavas keeping diaries of their progress but due to the highly personal and individualistic nature of bhajan, they are naturally relunctant to share all that.
And opening your heart on the www for the world to see, criticise, laugh at, and be skeptical of is not an inviting proposal.
Matters of bhajan are meant to be kept private and shared at large only up to a point.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 13, 2010 10:40:11 GMT -6
There are contemporary vaishnavas keeping diaries of their progress but due to the highly personal and individualistic nature of bhajan, they are naturally relunctant to share all that. And opening your heart on the www for the world to see, criticise, laugh at, and be skeptical of is not an inviting proposal. Matters of bhajan are meant to be kept private and shared at large only up to a point. Who else is doing this? I would like to know. It would be interesting to compare accounts. Yes, there is a highly personal character to bhajan, but I am not sure how individualistic it is. After all we are all pretty much doing the same things: mantra-smarana, puja-arcana, kirtana, and nama-japa. And we are all doing them in pretty much the same way and with the same mantras. Moreover, many of us share the same Western or Westernized backgrounds. So in spite of the personal nature of our bhajans there is much common ground and we face many of the same problems and challenges. For instance, how does one sit for long periods to do the vast amount of japa the tradition demands? What typical tricks does one's mind play doing these long sittings and how might they be avoided or overcome? How does one do kirtan if one is alone or surrounded by people who do not understand or appreciate it? Etc, etc. I seriously doubt that any of us have anything really confidential going on in our bhajans. Nevertheless, there might be samskaras that come bubbling to the surface during our sadhanas that we might be embarrassed to discuss. No one is forced to divulge such things. Besides, what better way to learn humility than to be laughed at and criticized? Isn't it really the effort to protect our "fragile" egos that is the biggest obstacle to our advancement in bhajan? It seems so to me. Still, I agree with you that some matters should not be divulged before everyone and some matters should not be divulged to anyone except one's most trusted friends, and some matters maybe not even to them. Still, I would like to see more people undertake a sadhana diary if only because it forces one to take one's sadhana more seriously. That is what its effect has been on me so far.
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Post by malati on Jul 13, 2010 16:45:27 GMT -6
Maasikdharma: There are contemporary vaishnavas keeping diaries of their progress but due to the highly personal and individualistic nature of bhajan, they are naturally relunctant to share all that. And opening your heart on the www for the world to see, criticise, laugh at, and be skeptical of is not an inviting proposal. Matters of bhajan are meant to be kept private and shared at large only up to a point.
You have good points there, Nitaidas.
Maasikdharma:
I do not know if you have noticed that most members here are the free-thinker kind of Vaishnavas. And this site is owned by a westerner, an american at that, to whom the freedom of speech is an unalienable right (hope I got that phrase accurate).
I for one do not like to be part of a group think. Things must make sense to me. I have faith but it's not blind faith. I do not like to be just a parrot.
I know there are ideas attributed to past acharyas about what you are saying. Sure they have their wonderful, insightful realizations, however, in my opinion because we are all individual jivas each one of us has each own realization, how to walk on the GV path. The past acharyas' realizations are guidelines but we have our individuality and so we do not have to have the same exact form of their realizations.
No one here has opened their minds to the minutest details, the law of nature takes care of that, it's just impossible.
What I mean is this, even if I say I see red, you will not exactly know and understand how I "experience" red.
I dont know you from a bar of soap, of course maybe you have given some background about yourself in the past and I was away that time but I think if you come anonymous here, I think you forfeit your right to criticize what people do here. Have you any realizations you want to share with us. I hope you are not here just to canvass people for your group.
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