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Post by narottamadasa on Aug 17, 2020 10:55:44 GMT -6
I suppose dating will always be difficult. I am presently half way through the Hamrivamsa translated by Manmatha natha Datta, and it is full of interesting perspectives and variations. In some respects it seems more embellished with long descriptions and speeches than the Bhagavat, although some episodes in the Vraja Lila are omitted. I wonder which is the earlier; the only reference I have for such things is Prof. Wilson's Intro to the Vishnu Purana. In European literature there is a similar prejudice, either in favour of the ancients or the moderns, but more in terms of style and elegance perhaps. Dear Madana Mohana Dada, नमस्तुभ्यं If you refer to "la querelle des Anciens et des Modernes" which took place in the French Academy, the problem was quite different and was based on linguistic and stylistic issues. There was no question of truth or of any authenticity. The key issue was aesthetics and artistic models. If this is the quarrel you are referring to, I can hardly perceive its connection to such literature as Puranas. दासो ऽस्मि
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 17, 2020 11:01:49 GMT -6
I suppose dating will always be difficult. I am presently half way through the Hamrivamsa translated by Manmatha natha Datta, and it is full of interesting perspectives and variations. In some respects it seems more embellished with long descriptions and speeches than the Bhagavat, although some episodes in the Vraja Lila are omitted. I wonder which is the earlier; the only reference I have for such things is Prof. Wilson's Intro to the Vishnu Purana. In European literature there is a similar prejudice, either in favour of the ancients or the moderns, but more in terms of style and elegance perhaps. There are lots of clues. When the text says something like "the Buddha will be born in ...," it is clearly a post-Buddhist text. When it refers to the Jaina Mahavira it is clearly post Mahavira. References to Yavanas makes it post Greek and so forth. The big problem with Puranas is that they are composite texts written by many hands and at different times. So there many be something quite ancient in them that has been surrounded or augmented by something much more modern. The Padma Purana is the poster-girl for this kind of thing. Things were added to that right up to the 16th century. I am trying to read it now. It is pretty chaotic. There seems to be no organizing principle in its construction. It wobbles along from one non sequitur to the next. Occasionally something interesting happens. The Harivamsa is a good example of a text that has been added to repeatedly over the centuries. That is why it appears more embellished than its age (2nd cent. BCE to 2nd cent. CE) would suggest. The critical edition winnows the text down considerably. Wish we know more about how these texts were written. They all have to pretend they were written by someone named Vyasa.
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Post by madanmohandas on Aug 17, 2020 14:50:29 GMT -6
I suppose dating will always be difficult. I am presently half way through the Hamrivamsa translated by Manmatha natha Datta, and it is full of interesting perspectives and variations. In some respects it seems more embellished with long descriptions and speeches than the Bhagavat, although some episodes in the Vraja Lila are omitted. I wonder which is the earlier; the only reference I have for such things is Prof. Wilson's Intro to the Vishnu Purana. In European literature there is a similar prejudice, either in favour of the ancients or the moderns, but more in terms of style and elegance perhaps. There are lots of clues. When the text says something like "the Buddha will be born in ...," it is clearly a post-Buddhist text. When it refers to the Jaina Mahavira it is clearly post Mahavira. References to Yavanas makes it post Greek and so forth. The big problem with Puranas is that they are composite texts written by many hands and at different times. So there many be something quite ancient in them that has been surrounded or augmented by something much more modern. The Padma Purana is the poster-girl for this kind of thing. Things were added to that right up to the 16th century. I am trying to read it now. It is pretty chaotic. There seems to be no organizing principle in its construction. It wobbles along from one non sequitur to the next. Occasionally something interesting happens. The Harivamsa is a good example of a text that has been added to repeatedly over the centuries. That is why it appears more embellished than its age (2nd cent. BCE to 2nd cent. CE) would suggest. The critical edition winnows the text down considerably. Wish we know more about how these texts were written. They all have to pretend they were written by someone named Vyasa. Yes, that makes sense, but then I would be inclined to say that a scribe may include contemporary allusions while copying out an old manuscript, and such like. As with Homer, these days everyone acknowledges the works attributed to him since ancient times, to be a composite text, yet it is just convenient to attribute it to Homer, (still I suppose no one is trying to systematise or validate doctrine from Homer anymore). I wonder at what date poets began to sign off on their productions. I also have a predilection for Ramayana studies, and have seen some of the accretions myself; they are somewhat obvious. But additions, accretions and interpolations only tell us that an older text has been through the hands of more or less faithful scribes, but not it's original date of composition. These are just my unenlightened speculations, but I'm slowly gaining the capacity to reason about these things. There is also the question in my mind whether it is expedient to trample the fond credulity and consolatory faith that people have in the tradition, and if it might be more harm than good to an innocent novice to have the whole edifice dismantled. The enlightened Queen Christina of Sweden(1626-1689) found to her chagrin that to disabuse men was to offend them. Hahahaha I sound like the Pope.
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Post by madanmohandas on Aug 17, 2020 15:14:46 GMT -6
I suppose dating will always be difficult. I am presently half way through the Hamrivamsa translated by Manmatha natha Datta, and it is full of interesting perspectives and variations. In some respects it seems more embellished with long descriptions and speeches than the Bhagavat, although some episodes in the Vraja Lila are omitted. I wonder which is the earlier; the only reference I have for such things is Prof. Wilson's Intro to the Vishnu Purana. In European literature there is a similar prejudice, either in favour of the ancients or the moderns, but more in terms of style and elegance perhaps. Dear Madana Mohana Dada, नमस्तुभ्यं If you refer to "la querelle des Anciens et des Modernes" which took place in the French Academy, the problem was quite different and was based on linguistic and stylistic issues. There was no question of truth or of any authenticity. The key issue was aesthetics and artistic models. If this is the quarrel you are referring to, I can hardly perceive its connection to such literature as Puranas. दासो ऽस्मि Thanks, Naru, for your kind response. and greetings likewise with pranam. Yes, it's true, the prejudice toward ancient and modern is more in terms of elegance of style and classical form, and a breaking away from convention. There's a lot to be said about it in that context too. Still, in regard to textural exegeses and dating, one criteria would be the development of style, diction and usage to determine the antiquity. From the Puranas I have seen they have a simple style, mostly anustubh meter, whereas the Bhagavat, say, is richly embellished with varieties of meters. One thing I do not see is end line rhyming, and wonder when that was introduced into Indian prosody. The same applies to the ancient Greek and Roman poets. Rhyming seems to come in with the rise of vernacular tongues in both Europe and Asia. In English rhyming compensates for the measure being stressed/unstressed, rather that long/short vowels, which had the advantage of a more musical lilt. We got it (rhyming)from the French, they got it from those clever cultured Italians; otherwise all English had was alliteration such as said Chaucer referring to hypocritical preachers, 'A shitty shepherd shepherding clean sheep.' Hahahaha, sorry. namastubhyam.
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Post by narottamadasa on Aug 18, 2020 10:55:59 GMT -6
Dear Madana Mohana Dada, नमस्तुभ्यं If you refer to "la querelle des Anciens et des Modernes" which took place in the French Academy, the problem was quite different and was based on linguistic and stylistic issues. There was no question of truth or of any authenticity. The key issue was aesthetics and artistic models. If this is the quarrel you are referring to, I can hardly perceive its connection to such literature as Puranas. दासो ऽस्मि Thanks, Naru, for your kind response. and greetings likewise with pranam. Yes, it's true, the prejudice toward ancient and modern is more in terms of elegance of style and classical form, and a breaking away from convention. There's a lot to be said about it in that context too. Still, in regard to textural exegeses and dating, one criteria would be the development of style, diction and usage to determine the antiquity. From the Puranas I have seen they have a simple style, mostly anustubh meter, whereas the Bhagavat, say, is richly embellished with varieties of meters. One thing I do not see is end line rhyming, and wonder when that was introduced into Indian prosody. The same applies to the ancient Greek and Roman poets. Rhyming seems to come in with the rise of vernacular tongues in both Europe and Asia. In English rhyming compensates for the measure being stressed/unstressed, rather that long/short vowels, which had the advantage of a more musical lilt. We got it (rhyming)from the French, they got it from those clever cultured Italians; otherwise all English had was alliteration such as said Chaucer referring to hypocritical preachers, 'A shitty shepherd shepherding clean sheep.' Hahahaha, sorry. namastubhyam. Dear Madana Mohana Dada, Thank you for your comment. And especially for Chaucer's quotation! Despite my passion for British literature, I am not well-versed on British medieval poets, just basic notions. You are definitely more qualified with Nitai Dada vis-à-vis such subject matters as historicity and chronology of antique texts. It is easier to discuss such themes in the field of European (both Greek and Latin) literature, although there are still debates regarding the classical Holy Bible, especially with such texts as the gnostic Gospel according to St. Thomas, whose language is very different from that of any other part of the New Testament and whose expression I find quite similar to what we see in Upanishads. There is even one theologian named Jean-Yves Leloup who translated the above mentioned Gospel and who made some references to Vedic texts in his comments. I wonder if there any comparative study of the Ancient European literature and the Aryan one (or shall I say Vedic? Or Hindu? Not sure which nomenclature is the most appropriate). Could Lucretius' De rerum natura be compared to philosophies propounded by Vaiśeṣika or Cārvāka? This question requires probably a different thread on the forum. Jaya Sri Radhe!
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Post by madanmohandas on Aug 19, 2020 12:51:29 GMT -6
Thanks, Naru, for your kind response. and greetings likewise with pranam. Yes, it's true, the prejudice toward ancient and modern is more in terms of elegance of style and classical form, and a breaking away from convention. There's a lot to be said about it in that context too. Still, in regard to textural exegeses and dating, one criteria would be the development of style, diction and usage to determine the antiquity. From the Puranas I have seen they have a simple style, mostly anustubh meter, whereas the Bhagavat, say, is richly embellished with varieties of meters. One thing I do not see is end line rhyming, and wonder when that was introduced into Indian prosody. The same applies to the ancient Greek and Roman poets. Rhyming seems to come in with the rise of vernacular tongues in both Europe and Asia. In English rhyming compensates for the measure being stressed/unstressed, rather that long/short vowels, which had the advantage of a more musical lilt. We got it (rhyming)from the French, they got it from those clever cultured Italians; otherwise all English had was alliteration such as said Chaucer referring to hypocritical preachers, 'A shitty shepherd shepherding clean sheep.' Hahahaha, sorry. namastubhyam. Dear Madana Mohana Dada, Thank you for your comment. And especially for Chaucer's quotation! Despite my passion for British literature, I am not well-versed on British medieval poets, just basic notions. You are definitely more qualified with Nitai Dada vis-à-vis such subject matters as historicity and chronology of antique texts. It is easier to discuss such themes in the field of European (both Greek and Latin) literature, although there are still debates regarding the classical Holy Bible, especially with such texts as the gnostic Gospel according to St. Thomas, whose language is very different from that of any other part of the New Testament and whose expression I find quite similar to what we see in Upanishads. There is even one theologian named Jean-Yves Leloup who translated the above mentioned Gospel and who made some references to Vedic texts in his comments. I wonder if there any comparative study of the Ancient European literature and the Aryan one (or shall I say Vedic? Or Hindu? Not sure which nomenclature is the most appropriate). Could Lucretius' De rerum natura be compared to philosophies propounded by Vaiśeṣika or Cārvāka? This question requires probably a different thread on the forum. Jaya Sri Radhe! Greetings Narottamadasaji, thanks again. I am not as qualified as I affect to sound. And I always rely on English translations, tho' I make efforts with interlinear translations of Latin authors. I tend to be a bit of an heretic when it comes to Christian doctrine, yet I make an effort to understand it. It seems to me if there are any parallels with the Indian systems, darshana, let's say, then they are more apparent in the neo or later Platonists, especially the One, the Good, the Beautiful, sounds very ekam satyam sundaram. As for Lucretius and atoms, maybe, but it is more than I know; he's pleasing in many ways, but hard to comprehend, and disappointing in a way. Having said that if I were alive then I think the Epicurean lifestyle would have suited me. Particularly the Hedonic calculus. Ovid's Metamorphoses on the other hand, is quite remarkable in that it is like a Purana, or includes the conventional themes of a Purana, sarga, visarga, etc. and the last Book XV has a narrative of Pythagorean philosophy, and ends up describing the involution of the elements back their primal state, corresponding to the Puranic nirodha. All the concepts of metempsychosis and a long harangue on the avoidance of a flesh diet. There is mention of an Indian prince in the battle of the centaurs, and the author names Ganga by name Ganges, but other than that it would not seem that any direct transfer of ideas occurred. Jay Radhe Shyam!
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Post by meeno8 on Aug 20, 2020 8:04:31 GMT -6
Yes, I do recall reading your translation of Vedanta-sara, despite the details therein having been lost to my memory banks over time, when it first came out, Pandit Nitaidas Mahashoy. To my point, without any tikas (commentaries), how can one comprehend the full import of 'tat' and 'aham'?
When it comes to the objects of the senses, we know from modern physics that our brains really are unable to perceive the true nature of light or of sound or of taste or of smell or of touch via the organs of the senses of our bodies. Current research in neurology supports the evidence that what is actually 'out there' (those objects) is really just in the mind, i.e. electrical impulses in the brain. That would ostensibly be part of the 'tat', as opposed to the 'aham' of the inner self, from what I can ascertain. We can picture our brain in a jar next to a bunch of other brains in jars, with a basic understanding of what purpose it serves as opposed to the purpose of a heart, a kidney or a liver. A neurologist has a deeper understanding, being more familiar with all the parts of the human brain and the synapses and neurotransmitters, et al.
Any comments on this from anyone here?
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 20, 2020 22:06:31 GMT -6
Yes, I do recall reading your translation of Vedanta-sara, despite the details therein having been lost to my memory banks over time, when it first came out, Pandit Nitaidas Mahashoy. To my point, without any tikas (commentaries), how can one comprehend the full import of 'tat' and 'aham'? When it comes to the objects of the senses, we know from modern physics that our brains really are unable to perceive the true nature of light or of sound or of taste or of smell or of touch via the organs of the senses of our bodies. Current research in neurology supports the evidence that what is actually 'out there' (those objects) is really just in the mind, i.e. electrical impulses in the brain. That would ostensibly be part of the 'tat', as opposed to the 'aham' of the inner self, from what I can ascertain. We can picture our brain in a jar next to a bunch of other brains in jars, with a basic understanding of what purpose it serves as opposed to the purpose of a heart, a kidney or a liver. A neurologist has a deeper understanding, being more familiar with all the parts of the human brain and the synapses and neurotransmitters, et al. Any comments on this from anyone here? Interesting that you should bring this up, Minaji. Here is what I was reading in Sankara's Upadesasahasri just last night: In Chapter 13 entitled by the translator (Sengaku Mayeda) "Eyslessness:" 1, As I am eyeless, I do not see. Likewise, as I am earless, how shall I hear? As I have no organ of speech, I do not speak. As I am mindless, how shall I think? 2. As I am devoid of the life principle (प्राण), I do not act. Being without intellect, I am not a knower. Therefore I have neither knowledge nor nescience, having the light of Pure Consciousness. 3. Ever free, pure, transcendentally changeless, invariable, immortal, imperishable, and always bodiless. 4. [All-]pervading like ether, I have neither hunger nor thirst, neither sorrow nor delusion, neither decay nor death, since I am bodiless. 5. As I have no sense of touch, I do not touch.As I have no tongue, I do not perceive taste. As I am of the nature of constant knowledge, I never have [either] knowledge or ignorance. 6. The modifications of the mind, which is caused by the eye and takes on form-and-color [of its object], is certainly always seen by the constant Seeing of the Atman. The tat of tat tvam asi is of course Brahman, but the tvam is problematic since it is the limited self or jiva. How can they be equated?
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Post by narottamadasa on Aug 21, 2020 10:42:01 GMT -6
Dear Madana Mohana Dada, Thank you for your comment. And especially for Chaucer's quotation! Despite my passion for British literature, I am not well-versed on British medieval poets, just basic notions. You are definitely more qualified with Nitai Dada vis-à-vis such subject matters as historicity and chronology of antique texts. It is easier to discuss such themes in the field of European (both Greek and Latin) literature, although there are still debates regarding the classical Holy Bible, especially with such texts as the gnostic Gospel according to St. Thomas, whose language is very different from that of any other part of the New Testament and whose expression I find quite similar to what we see in Upanishads. There is even one theologian named Jean-Yves Leloup who translated the above mentioned Gospel and who made some references to Vedic texts in his comments. I wonder if there any comparative study of the Ancient European literature and the Aryan one (or shall I say Vedic? Or Hindu? Not sure which nomenclature is the most appropriate). Could Lucretius' De rerum natura be compared to philosophies propounded by Vaiśeṣika or Cārvāka? This question requires probably a different thread on the forum. Jaya Sri Radhe! Greetings Narottamadasaji, thanks again. I am not as qualified as I affect to sound. And I always rely on English translations, tho' I make efforts with interlinear translations of Latin authors. I tend to be a bit of an heretic when it comes to Christian doctrine, yet I make an effort to understand it. It seems to me if there are any parallels with the Indian systems, darshana, let's say, then they are more apparent in the neo or later Platonists, especially the One, the Good, the Beautiful, sounds very ekam satyam sundaram. As for Lucretius and atoms, maybe, but it is more than I know; he's pleasing in many ways, but hard to comprehend, and disappointing in a way. Having said that if I were alive then I think the Epicurean lifestyle would have suited me. Particularly the Hedonic calculus. Ovid's Metamorphoses on the other hand, is quite remarkable in that it is like a Purana, or includes the conventional themes of a Purana, sarga, visarga, etc. and the last Book XV has a narrative of Pythagorean philosophy, and ends up describing the involution of the elements back their primal state, corresponding to the Puranic nirodha. All the concepts of metempsychosis and a long harangue on the avoidance of a flesh diet. There is mention of an Indian prince in the battle of the centaurs, and the author names Ganga by name Ganges, but other than that it would not seem that any direct transfer of ideas occurred. Jay Radhe Shyam! Dear Madana Mohana Dada, Indeed, searching for fundamental similarities between Vedic literature and European Antiquity may be a little bit far-fetched approach. Although some similarities may be easily found. Especially while dealing with such aesthetic and philosophical notions that you mention. There were some theologians (Hans Urs von Balthasar) who tried to find some philosophical background in Antiquity which was later transformed or, as they say, which attained its blossoming during the Christian era. Hence, such notions as Sofia and Logos may be probably related to the classical Samkhya with its Purusa and Prakrti. Yet, I have never read any analysis of this. Slavic folklore, which some scholars call Slavic Vedas, have much more similarities with Puranic narratives. But we do not have them in a written form. Some Old-Believers still convey them as their ancestors used to do with some linguistic and diegetic differences, which renders their analysis more difficult. And what to say of their authenticity and historical accuracy! Thank you for reminding of Ovid's Metamorphoses. I still consider it to be a master piece of European literature, despite its siddhantic weakness. Jaya Sri Radhe!
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Post by meeno8 on Aug 23, 2020 13:32:45 GMT -6
There is no doubt that the total corpus of Sanskrit texts (and Pali for the Buddhist ones) is quite unwieldy to master in a single lifetime, even if one were devoting all one's waking hours to the study of them.
It would appear that the important thing for adherents of CV that are raganuga rasik bhaktas is which texts to focus on in particular. And, for most, that can pose somewhat of a challenge. At least, not without narrowing down the number of texts to something manageable. Plus, as Nilamadhavaji has pointed out, splitting one's time between study and other activities can be somewhat problematic.
We have some texts from Rupa and Sanatana (such as the UL) that build upon the 18 chapters of the Mahabharata that are known as the Bhagavad Gita, with the tikas for those, plus the dasama-skanda (10th book) of the BP and its tikas. Perhaps those in and of themselves make up the core teachings, but we can't ignore the works of Dr. O.B.L. Kapoor in English, which explain a lot of the basics. Some basic course of study should probably apply to the majority of practitioners. It is not likely that everyone is going to pursue a PhD or a traditional Shastri or Tirtha degree. Should they at least be college educated? Well, there may be some varying opinions on that one, but I would be in favor of it for all, unless there is some good reason or extenuating circumstances involved.
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Post by meeno8 on Aug 24, 2020 14:28:57 GMT -6
I suppose what we need is some 21st century authors producing some original works within our tradition. Yes, in the context of everything that has come before, because that is the scholarly approach. But, also incorporating the most current scientific research and in light of the type of society we inhabit today as opposed to the type of society of early 16th Century Bengal.
Does that not seem reasonable?
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 24, 2020 23:08:43 GMT -6
Good point, मीनकेतन बाबु. We should have a whole rich literature by now, built on themes and motifs from the works of the Goswamis and other CV poets and writers. Poetry, plays, short stories, novels, musicals, songs, orchestra pieces, critical essays, philosophical musings applying Acintya-bhedAbheda to the modern world and finding resonances in modern scientific research, psychology, aesthetics, etc., etc. In order for this kind of literary expression and expansion to work, the authors must first be well read in the major texts of the tradition and experienced in the main forms of sadhana (kirtana, japa, smarana, puja, etc). The ideas will flow. Krsna is the lord of artists. I have tried to encourage this by including sections in this forum for members writings. I even myself started a scientce-fiction/fantasy novel years ago based on and extending some of the ideas from Visvanatha's poem Svapna-vilasamrta. I was too uncertain of myself then to continue. But now I wish I had. Maybe it is not too late. Everyone join in, please. Otherwise, CV will just become a stagnant pond.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2020 9:35:51 GMT -6
Coach Jordan is a Thakur (Idol). Srila Bhaktivinode was... Scholar OBL Kapoor wasn't.
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Post by meeno8 on Aug 25, 2020 13:19:36 GMT -6
I think it is time to expel this guy Shah from the Symposium. It is not about 1st Amendment rights here, as with the US Constitution. Yes, not a free for all up for grabs place for anyone to post whatever they like.
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Post by Nitaidas on Aug 25, 2020 17:35:15 GMT -6
Once upon a time I had the idea to try to encourage creative Caitanyite literature by running contests every year and giving prizes to the best creative works in a variety of fields: poetry, short fiction, novels, plays, screenplays, etc. The top three winners would get monetary prizes and be published in a yearly book. Of course, the prizes would not be large, but the authors would get published and perhaps gain encouragement and notoriety for their work. That like so many of my good ideas never got off the ground. It occurs to me, though, that there might be some alternative universe next door and that all of my incomplete or failed attempts were completed there and were wildly successful. Or, perhaps there are many alternative universes where one or two of my beginnings were completed.
So in some alternative universe there is a rich, successful, creative literature inspired by Caitanya Vaisnavism. There instead of constantly looking to Shakespeare or the Bible for titles or ideas, they look to the Bhagavata Purana, the works of Sanatana and Rupa, the poetry of the hundreds of Bengali poets like Candidas, Govinda Das, Vasudeva Ghosh, Radhamohan Thakur, et al., for ideas and inspiration. In order to understand and recognize the allusions of these epic poems, dramas, 1000-page novels, and movies one has to know the Goswami literature in more than just a passing way, as it is here with Shakespeare and the Bible. Such titles could be something like Advaita's Thundering Call, Gold Outside Sapphire In, Sri Jiva's Tears, Sacimata's Loss, etc., etc. The stories are told with twists and changes and new unexpected events and settings, much like what Visvanatha Cakravartin did in some of his short kavyas, but with more radical updates. There there is no fear in pushing the envelope and adding or subtracting events and incidents. One views life and the world through the lens provided by the CV tradition and describes what one sees there. The imagination is a wonderful thing and it should not be kept roped up in a small coral. Let the wind horse fly!
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