Free Economy and Free World

[Nitaidas]

Here is a question that has been on my mind for the last month or so. I keep asking myself this question and not finding a satisfying or convincing answer. Perhaps by vocalizing it and asking for your responses, I will be able to see the folly in it. The question is this:

Why isn't everything free? That is to say, why do you have to pay for things? Wouldn't it be better for everybody if everything were free? I produce books and teach. I am happy to do those for free. The only reason I don't do that for free is that I need to buy food and pay for electricity and gas. If I were able to get those things for free, I would not need to charge for the books I produce or the teaching I do. Isn't that a better system than the one we have? If the farmers who produce the food I eat did not have to pay for the education of their children or their electricity or gas they could give their food away too. If everyone had what they needed for free they would not need to charge for what they do or produce. We could all go about our business happily without worrying about not having what we need or not having what we want. I don't see why things can't be this way. Absolutely everything, of course, would have to be free. If anyone charges for anything then the system would break down. But no one would need to charge for anything because everything would be free. Money would become useless.

What is the flaw here? Would things come to a grinding halt? Would people stop working? Why? What else would they do? Work would then become more like play, something that you do because you like to do it, rather than have to do it. There are certainly some unpleasant jobs and people often do them because they need the money. If money were no longer an issue, would those jobs stop being done? Or, would people continue to do their jobs because that is what they know how to do and they do it well? I don't know. The current system seems deeply perverse to me.

One more question: if a really free economy is possbile, how do we get there from here?

[Ldd]

All due to desire. A man of this world must work, because he wants things that cost money. The government is not god. It doesnt have the means to create things for your service free of charge.
Only Krishna can make things out of nothing. He has given us the earth free for our use. There was an era when man was god conscious and they thought the same way you are thinking.

Greed and selfishness entered people's hearts. I have no idea at what point. They own the earth and its resources. We are the new slaves, buying back a little something to survive.

But what does a bhakta need? Air, water, food, the books, the holy names.

Land should be distributed to every citizen at a small cost - and rationed. this is the kind of world I would like to live in. A few people shouldn't own everything.

Remember saints are not in charge of this planet, so it is our fate to be kept be kept in servitude.

But once you have a few feet of space to dwell, and some food, all the other things are not really necessary.

The natives lived free, but they used to get wiped out by winter storms and cold. Its part of living in a cold place. the karma. But if you want heat like every civilised person, you have to pay for gas.

Or you could live in a warmer place and never have to bother with paying heat or AC. Plant some mango trees, some rice, mind a cow.
What you think?

[Nitaidas]

Mar 26, 2010 16:08:49 GMT -6 Ldd said:

All due to desire. A man of this world must work, because he wants things that cost money. The government is not god. It doesnt have the means to create things for your service free of charge.
Only Krishna can make things out of nothing. He has given us the earth free for our use. There was an era when man was god conscious and they thought the same way you are thinking.

Greed and selfishness entered people's hearts. I have no idea at what point. They own the earth and its resources. We are the new slaves, buying back a little something to survive.

But what does a bhakta need? Air, water, food, the books, the holy names.

Land should be distributed to every citizen at a small cost - and rationed. this is the kind of world I would like to live in. A few people shouldn't own everything.

Remember saints are not in charge of this planet, so it is our fate to be kept be kept in servitude.

But once you have a few feet of space to dwell, and some food, all the other things are not really necessary.

The natives lived free, but they used to get wiped out by winter storms and cold. Its part of living in a cold place. the karma. But if you want heat like every civilised person, you have to pay for gas.

Or you could live in a warmer place and never have to bother with paying heat or AC. Plant some mango trees, some rice, mind a cow.
What you think?

Some interesting ideas, squareji. I still think everything should be free, though. Who after all really owns anything? This business about charging for this and that is all wrong. We only do it because others charge us for things. If everything we wanted and needed were free, we would not need to charge anyone for anything. You are right. Our needs are simple. Our wants are more complicated, but those are often the result of some sort of advertising or brain-washing. If we could all get together and agree not to charge each other for the things we need, life would be simple and sweet. We would see the world in a new light.

Where does this "it costs me this much so I charge you that much" come from? The profit motive? What kind of motive is that? It only exists because we want things that cost. If nothing cost anything, then there would be no profit motive.

I can imagine a world in which everyone worked not for the profit motive but in order to make something good and useful, not only for themselves but for everyone else. The materials they need for that making would be supplied to them for free and the product given away for free. Imagine walking into a car dealership and just pointing to a car and saying I want that one. The dealer tosses you the keys and off you go. It has not cost him anything and it does not cost you anything. Pull up to a gas station and fill up. Wave at the attendant and take off.

There needn't be any government involved. I am not talking about a welfare state. Just a state in which everything is free and everyone can have whatever it is they want. The only wrench in the works that I can think of is scarcity, invented or real. Most scarcity is invented, by either religions or people motivated by profit. Perhaps a government would be needed to address the problems of scarcity. Other than that what would a government be needed for? Would there be crime? Would there be armed aggression?

Just the utopian Nitai, wondering why things can't be different.

[maasikdharma]

Your answer lies in a "resource based economy". Here it is Nitai;

www.thevenusproject.com/

The first video I would recommend on that site is this presentation by Peter Joseph;

vimeo.com/7857584

[Nitaidas]

Thanks, masikadharma.

I have never heard of that group (the Venus Project). That lecture, the video of which you linked, happened just down the road from where I live. I will look at the site and the other lectures in more detail. The big question on my mind is what can be done? The analysis if the problem seems to be correct. I have not gotten to the solution, yet.

[JD33]

Good stuff Nitai Dassji....... great concept..... I started 3 weeks ago doing therapy work for free....... it has been an interesting change...... I will see how it all goes as time goes on. Great lecture Masikadharma-ji. I will have to listen to the other ones in future..... It is so disappointing to see how the world is structured now and how it actually CAN BE..... o woah to us all on this level.

[madanmohandas]

More people are thinking about money and what it is, who is in charge of it etc. There are an aweful lot of theories about it like the origins of paper money, gold reserves, central banks such as the Fed of US or Bank of England which most people think are some governmental department but actually they are private banks.

[Nitaidas]

That is very generous of you, jd33. That is another part of the idea that appeals to me, the generosity of it all. Giving freely of your own work and receiving freely the fruit of the work of others. I can envision a society based on such principles as much more loving and warm. Would there then be any basis for ego-centrism? One would have to be constantly aware of one's indebtedness to others. Now we think "well, I paid him. Why should I be grateful?" Or, would we begin to take things for granted? It would be an interesting experiment exploring human nature. Remove the pressures connected with "making a living" and allow human consciousness to expand to its own comfortable level. At present I have the sense that human consciousness is like a gas compressed into a cylinder. Release the valve and see how human consciousness will expand and configure itself.

[Ldd]

it's the same thing that the saints teach. What brings man into this world? Egocentric desires.
Most people won't waive that for the sake of generosity. Selfishness is the prime intuition. all the other qualities are subordinate.

[JD33]

It needs exploration and testing - if you will. I have done periods of free work on and off in the past 30 years and like recently, find that most people in the US value it more when there is a monetary charge. BUT - I feel that to do it all free is a great thing to do! lol. I will continue as along as I can and see. Its true square about the predominancy of selfishness in the world. Good if the world changed, but we cannot wait for that to happen. We can be in the world and no "of it" in many ways: through non-attachment, through loving compassioninate action in the service to others, through creating a self-sufficient Ashram where people can live and do full-time Bhajan Sadhana in community. Or create one's own self-sufficient place to live.

[Ldd]

good thinking JD, that is how I feel. we can start by doing free services for each other and sharing what we have in the spirit of non attachment.
And dream on. sweet dreams doesn't harm anyone.

[Deleted]

I have been thinking about how currency is obsolete for a number of years now. The question is how long it will take everyone to realize that fact.

There are some major disconnects in the mass mindset all over this planet when it comes to the concept of wealth. Laxmi is depicted standing on a lotus on the water for a reason. Without clean water to drink, one is truly impoverished. Over and above that is plenitude for all, and that is hardly possible with the current world population, which is still increasing. Sadly this problem, which is undoubtedly the most serious problem we currently face, seems to get far less attention than all of those less serious problems like crude oil spills and Greco debt dilemmas. So, how wealthy is Mr. Multi-billionaire if the crushing weight of all those people has caused utter devastation of the ecological landscape?

[Deleted]

Not to understate the trashing of the environment, though. That spill in the Gulf is particularly nasty. Between that and that flotilla of garbage the size of Texas in the Pacific, it gives one pause. What kind of idiots are we as a species?