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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 14:03:51 GMT -6
In summary, before I can go back and post from the old book from Navadwip published from Baral Ghat all the theological discussion from Radha Tantra to established the main objection of calling Mahamantra is not a proper mantra with Bija, Devta, Rishi and Chanda which needed by any mantra, that book conclusively proved from Radha Tantra what is bija, Devta, Rishi and Chanda or Mahamantra .
Also that book refuted the claim of Mahamantra coming from Kalisantaran Upanishad which Mahaprabhu altered in sequence which as acharyya he can not do to alter ancient Upanishdic text.
That book also covered the signatory of that time whos who of Traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas world against the Mahamantra to be sing in kirtana ( some of the list is given in the attachment I provided in last post but not all).
The list of Signatory includes:
1) All Nityananda Vamsha Prabhupada originated from main center of Nityananda Prabhu household ie. Khardaha and with passing of time they spreaded in different part of Bengal/Puri & Vrindavan.
2) All / Major Goswamis of Advaita Vamsha Prabhupad among them most famous was Prabhupad Radhavinod Goswami of Shantipur the great commentator of entire Bhagavata published in bengali one of the great scholar of all time.
3) Great Rasikmohan Vidyabhusha from Srinivas Achryya vamsha lineage.
4) Nityanand Prabhupad from Sonar Gourango Temple
5) The Descendant of Narahari Thakur's vamsha famous Sri Rakhalananda Thakur from Srikhanda
6) In this book which uploaded in section it is recorded how Prabhupad Murlimohan Goswami of Advaita Vamsha in vrindavan has provided written consent as follows:
"
I have never heard Mahamantra being sung in Kirtan in Vrindavan. I am very old now , 82 years of age- In our family we have age old tradition to give diksha of Mahamantra even before giving the diksha of Krishna/Gopal Mantra to aspiring devotee. And for us & our followers singing Mahamantra in Kirtan is prohibited.
"
In this book one historic announcement and historical account recorded that of Sri Banamalilal Goswami of Radharaman temple saying there was no tradition earlier to sing Mahamantra in Kirtan.
And historical account of great meeting convened at Vrindavan with chanllenges made by saints not supporting Mahamantra to be chanted in Kirtana where the other party did not attend. Also with the opinion of sidhdha vaishnava of vrindavan for e.g Sri Sri Ramakrishna Das Pandita Baba or Sidhdha Manohar Das Baba where the have not appeared for the supporter party of Mahamantra Chanting in Kirtana.
I will reproduce that book which was published long back ( If I remind correctly sometime in 1920 from Navadwip ).
Besides that book there is another book was written by Advaita Vamsha Prabhupad the great scholar Sri Sri Radhavinode Goswami refuting the opinion for Mahamantra Chanting in Kirtan. Which is also available in some bookstore in Navadwip and I also have a copy. That is also a authentic book for Vaishnava Nitya Kriya Padhdhati.
In that book, Prabhupad Radhavinod Goswami also stressed and recommended the Kirtan should be sung with the Name of Gaur Hari in this present age, which was in accordance with of Nityananda Prabhu & Advaita prabhu ( Remember they both sung Kirtan with Mahaprabhu's name in front of Mahaprabhu in Puri during time of Ratha yatra , which was objected initially by Mahaprabhu but they did not listen to him and advised the devotee to sing the glorified name Gaurhari).
Another big testimony is that from the age old traditional Vaishnava Lilabhumi in Navadwip & Puri of Mahaprabhu barring some centers recently taken over by IGM no where this chanting of Mahamantra can be found in pratice.
1) for e.g The Foremost Gaudiya Vaishnava lila bhumi even if we keep in mind in Vrindavan is Puri Sri Gour Gambhira. This is the supreme important place among Gaudiya Vaishna tradition . In this place of Mahaprabhus eternal past time lilabhumi the 24 hours Kirtan is being sung since the time of Mahaprabhu in a un-interrupted manner. What is the kirtan? It is "Srikrishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nityananda , Hare Krishna Hare Ram Sri Radhe Govinda" - No Mahamantra.
Why we / other parties failed to consider this practice from age old day? They really do not have answer.
2) Same is true if we go another important place of Haridas Thakura Bhajan Kutir in Puri which is also another prime place prime importance . Here also 24 hours interrupted Kirtan is being sung since the time of Mahaprabhu. This same Kirtan is being sung there.
"Srikrishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nityananda , Hare Krishna Hare Ram Sri Radhe Govinda" - No Mahamantra.
3) In Navadwip most important place is Dhameswar Mahaprabhu Temple who is worshiped by Vishnupriya devi herself from the time of Mahaprabhu - What is the Kirtan being sung continuously there? It is "Jay Sachinandan Jay Gourhari - Vishnupriya Prananatha Nadiya Bihari " - No Mahamantra .
Since the time of Mahaprabhu because of such prohibition Mahamantra not to be sung in Kirtan many different lineage have following very different kind of Kirtana to distinguish their speciality.
One such great kirtana mainly for those worshipped Mahaprabhu centrally was -
Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur He
Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur He
Gaur Gaur Gaur Guur Gaur Gaur Pahi Mum
Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Gaur Rakhsha Mum
Mahamantra kirtan in public is very recent phenomenon in Gaudiya Vaishna history maninly started from Prangopal Goswami's time ( 1920 - 1930 onwards ) with Sadhu Nityananda Das of Vrindavan of Char Sampradaya Mohanto's suport and eventually hugely propagated by later formed Gaudiya Math and even later ISKCON folks. And the common people without having much understanding of lineage tradition accepted it in practice, and thus become so much widespread now-a-days.
Jay Nitai
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 14:07:26 GMT -6
Ed my advise is not to bogged down to much with this nitty gritty ( kuti nati ) you will loose the stream and bhakti will disappear. Let follow the Chanting that is one should aspire for. Just an advise as well wisher.
Sri Jiva has warned us at the very beginng of Tattwa Sandarbha one should not use his writings of sidhdhanta in this book to satisfy the own false ego of Critcal Thinking and said the Wishdom of Bhakti is not for them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 14:20:50 GMT -6
Just a note for caution to all how we take it forward in present days as per our best practices.
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Even though there is different opinion on this subject but there was no major discontent that was existed between two parties from beginning.
For e.g Prabhupad Prangopal Goswami was very dear to us and being Nityananda Vamsha Prabhupad we included them in our Guruvarga. Even in Guru Vandana song we sing the glory of Prabhupada Prangopal Goswami and he was very affectionate to our lineage specially Sakhi Ma and Namacharyya Ram Das Babaji Maharaja.
NamVigyanarryaa Kanupriya Gowami has very intimate relatioship with Namacharyya Ram Das Babaji Maharaja, even babaji maharaja used to perform kirtan at their house.
Tinkadi Goswami Prabhu had very intimate relationship of Namacharyya Ram Das Babaji Maharaja who proclaimed in Ramadas Babaji Maharaja he can see the vairagya,prema and Vaishnava Vinamrta of Six Goswamis.
And in practicalities in past there were instances where my great grandfather Sri Bodo Baba went to attend Kirtan party where participant were not trained in any other Kirtana and seeing the situation, Bodo Baba Himself sang Mahamantra in Kirtan but keeping one person in the midst of kirtan to keep the count.
We even consider where ever any Kirtan party is coming with Chanting Mahamantra , that Krishna swam is manifested as Nam Prabhu and we utmost show the respect to that Kirtan Party , in case needed sing the Mahamantra keeping the count ( which becomes Vachik Japa ).
In our tradition it is also maintained, for the advanced sadhaka when they are in stages of Bhava and up and mansifestation of Sri Nam Prabhu becomes spontaneous, which will automatically manifested in his body, mind and soul , then at that stage no rule is applicable ( counting etc.) since Sadhaka becomes Nam-maya ie. sub-merged in the realm of SriNam.
Hope this would clarify to maintain utmost caution to avoid any Aparadha which will be grave.
Jay Nitai
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Post by Ed on Oct 4, 2019 16:00:35 GMT -6
Thank you, Subrata ji, I appreciate it, that is good and sound advice, and I agree. I liked very much what you wrote about the relations between these great siddhas, it’s always good to read about them, especially about their vaisnava character and behaviour. Keeping this in mind, I'd like to know more about the history of this tradition and their lives, please keep sharing from their writings and from your own experience, there's much from the lives of the followers of Bodo Baba that is not in english yet.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 21:02:28 GMT -6
Ed & rest just modified my earlier post with few more reference to answer some of your question.
Regarding more information on other Mahatma, if you can search Gaudiya Discussion archive with my nickname "dasanudas" you can find many information which I posted for years during those days.
Jay Nitai
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Post by Ed on Oct 4, 2019 21:51:37 GMT -6
Ed & rest just modified my earlier post with few more reference to answer some of your question. Regarding more information on other Mahatma, if you can search Gaudiya Discussion archive with my nickname "dasanudas" you can find many information which I posted for years during those days. Jay Nitai Thank you for the added clarification on the previous post, Subrata, that is good to know and it helps, looking forward to reading more from that book. I'll look you up as 'dasanudas' in the GD archive, thank you. I have tried to collect most of what I could find online on the lives of Bodo Baba and his disciples, as well as from Kapoor's Saints of Vraja, and the Blazing Saphire Press edition of Premananda Bharati's Sri Krsna, Lord of Love has a few stories of the meetings between Bharati Baba, Bodo Baba and Ramdas Baba, which are great. I'd like to read the books on their lives, at least Kapoor's The Life of Love, which is the only one translated so far I think. Whatever you can share here, like the pictures you've been posting, that would also be much appreciated. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 5, 2019 0:16:39 GMT -6
Ed my advise is not to bogged down to much with this nitty gritty ( kuti nati ) you will loose the stream and bhakti will disappear. Let follow the Chanting that is one should aspire for. Just an advise as well wisher. Sri Jiva has warned us at the very beginng of Tattwa Sandarbha one should not use his writings of sidhdhanta in this book to satisfy the own false ego of Critcal Thinking and said the Wishdom of Bhakti is not for them. Subrato Babu, what exactly are you saying here? It is unclear to me. Cite your sources please (Tattva-sandarbha). The search for the truth through critical thinking and questioning is not false ego. This is the real svadharma of the jivas. False ego is the smug belief that one already knows the truth and that one should follow blindly. Nobody wants blind followers, least of all Krsna and Mahaprabhu or any guru worth the name. The wisdom of bhakti is surely not blind faith. Bhakti is a special form of knowledge (jnana-visesa), not a special form of ignorance (avidya-visesa). |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 5, 2019 0:26:38 GMT -6
And historical account of great meeting convened at Vrindavan with chanllenges made by saints not supporting Mahamantra to be chanted in Kirtana where the other party did not attend. Also with the opinion of sidhdha vaishnava of vrindavan for e.g Sri Sri Ramakrishna Das Pandita Baba or Sidhdha Manohar Das Baba where the have not appeared for the supporter party of Mahamantra Chanting in Kirtana. Subrato Babu, what do you mean here? It is unclear. Are you saying that the opposing party did not even attend the meeting and thus did not present any arguments in favor of uncounted Mahamantra chanting in sankirtan? Are you suggesting that the siddhas of Vrndavana did not attend because they did not support the chanting of Mahamantra in kirtana? |
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jiva
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Post by jiva on Oct 5, 2019 1:45:35 GMT -6
That was my understanding.
With their not attending, they expressed their attitude.
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 5, 2019 12:18:09 GMT -6
That was my understanding.
With their not attending, they expressed their attitude.
I don't think that that is a warranted conclusion. For one thing, I know my Gurudev learned bhajan from Siddha Manohar Das Babaji. It seems quite likely to me that he would have not endorsed Mahamantra sankirtana if Siddha Baba didn't. As I mentioned before we used to do Mahamantra sankirtana all the time. On Ekadasi we would sing it all night. Of more interest to me is whether the opposing party was there or not. If they were not there, what kind of discussion or debate could there have been. This is just like the other account of the meeting we got from the followers of Yadugopal except that it is about the party against singing the Mahamantra in kirtana. There is something fishy about both accounts of this meeting or meetings. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 5, 2019 13:04:22 GMT -6
Another big testimony is that from the age old traditional Vaishnava Lilabhumi in Navadwip & Puri of Mahaprabhu barring some centers recently taken over by IGM no where this chanting of Mahamantra can be found in pratice.
1) for e.g The Foremost Gaudiya Vaishnava lila bhumi even if we keep in mind in Vrindavan is Puri Sri Gour Gambhira. This is the supreme important place among Gaudiya Vaishna tradition . In this place of Mahaprabhus eternal past time lilabhumi the 24 hours Kirtan is being sung since the time of Mahaprabhu in a un-interrupted manner. What is the kirtan? It is "Srikrishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nityananda , Hare Krishna Hare Ram Sri Radhe Govinda" - No Mahamantra.
Why we / other parties failed to consider this practice from age old day? They really do not have answer.
2) Same is true if we go another important place of Haridas Thakura Bhajan Kutir in Puri which is also another prime place prime importance . Here also 24 hours interrupted Kirtan is being sung since the time of Mahaprabhu. This same Kirtan is being sung there.
"Srikrishna Chaitanya Prabhu Nityananda , Hare Krishna Hare Ram Sri Radhe Govinda" - No Mahamantra.
Subrato, I doubt that these things are true. Everyone knows that the followers of Bodo Baba became the caretakers of those sites in Puri, probably not until quite recently. The kirtanas you claim have been going on since the time of Mahaprabhu all resemble the kirtan that Bodo Baba revealed in the 19th century (bhaja nitai-gaura radhe shyam; japa hare krishna hare ram). How can they possibly have been going on from the time of Mahaprabhu? They even have the same grammatical mistake that Bodo Baba made by using Radhe instead of Radha. These chants may be going on in those places now, but they certainly only date back to when the followers of Bodo Baba took over care of those sites, not back to Mahaprabhu. I have been to the Haridas Thakur ashram when Baba was staying there. They were singing Bhaja Nitai Gaur Radhe Shyam Japa Hare Krishna Hare Ram. There is no old testimony to support your claim about these sites. And this business with the Radha Tantra, that strikes me as false too. The Radha Tantra is a late text written in Bengal. The critical edition of the Radha Tantra makes it a 17th century text. Therefore, it didn't exist when Mahaprabhu was alive. How could he have gotten the Mahamantra from that? I suspect that both sides have valid reasons and arguments for their positions. But, we have not heard from both sides yet. We should wait until both positions are fully laid out before endorsing one or the other or both. I will present Sundarananda's change of mind after I finish his work on the anti-Mahamantra sankirtana. I am almost done. It appears to me that he had a copy of this Navadvipa book ( I would love to compare it) in his hands when he wrote this book on the Mahamantra. As far as I can tell he never mentions it or credits it as the source of his scriptural citations. I doubt that he found them all himself, although his references to specific passages in it are quite good. I have found them all but one. He was still IGM when he wrote this book and that is the way they roll. Steal the work of others and claim it for oneself! |
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Post by Ed on Oct 5, 2019 13:06:29 GMT -6
That was my understanding.
With their not attending, they expressed their attitude.
This is just like the other account of the meeting we got from the followers of Yadugopal except that it is about the party against singing the Mahamantra in kirtana. There is something fishy about both accounts of this meeting or meetings. After Subrata's response that was my impression, I honestly don't think we'll get the answers I was hoping for. I still would like to read what that book has to say though, I always like to read about the bhaktas. But I've re-adjusted my expectations. |
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Post by Ed on Oct 6, 2019 9:19:59 GMT -6
Subatra, do you know more about Mahanta Nityananda Das from Char Sampraday? I’ve only read about two well known siddhas by that name from last century, none of them seem to be this person. I hope you can see how difficult it is to believe that a single Goswami with his son and the support of this mahatma introduced and spread such an important innovation and so recently, while going against the opinions of virtually every other mahatma of their time (according to your last account).
Your suggestion that it was people’s ignorance of sastric rules what made this practice widespread is too vague and you’d be unintentionally including such mahatmas as Tinkudi Baba and Prangopal himself in that bunch, along with many other recent sadhus. I don’t believe this is your intention. And incidentally, this is the same argument the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta would use against the group of Bodo Baba, and we have already discussed in many places why we can’t agree with their opinion.
My theory at the moment is that the controversy arose from the attempts of Bodo Baba’s followers to present and justify their particular practices which separated them, in a sense, from the rest of the community back in those days, probably in response to attacks from others, even non-gaudiya, communities. In order to correct the misunderstanding that they weren’t part of the community they had to get support from that same community and develop arguments to back up the siddhanta which was the foundation for those practices. Like I said in a previous comment, my guess is that these types of events often worked to defuse conflict in a civilised way within indian society, and so served as a public function to maintain whatever peace there could be maintained. We’ve seen that great sadhus will avoid getting involved in tarka that may result in offensive behaviour and become an interruption for their bhajana, but this is not always the case with the society of bhaktas and hindus at large, so there had to be ways in which disagreements could be resolved, if not ultimately, at least enough to keep some level of harmony among the different groups, including other important sects and brahmin communities, not just CV groups. I think that from this sort of dynamics might have arose this whole thing.
The fact that this issue is not addressed by those supporting the mahamantra in sankirtana in any of the writings we’ve seen so far is makes me think this wasn’t such an innovation, nor a controversy for them, and that it is likely we won’t find their arguments on this particular issue, with the exception perhaps of Prangopala’s writings, but we don’t have them, nor does the book of Subrata present them, as far as we’ve seen.
This are just my current guesses, anyway, Subrata, I don’t intent to be disrespectful or offensive towards any sadhu, and even though I’m no historian I like the discipline of western history which is about trying to record things as objectively as possible, there’s no implicit bad faith in trying to do that. In my case, I assumed you thought I wanted to use this information to start debates on this issue and win arguments in public online, and I think that’s waste of time and an obvious risk for our bhajan, in that sense I agree with you and seriously appreciated your advice, I hope you can understand I have no interest in that.
You know, even when that's not what Jiva said, his curse seems much harder to me actually, because if only those whose sole and only desire is to worship Krsna’s lotus feet are encouraged to read him that makes me extremely unqualified. Hence, I take it as “those who have an aspiration to have that”.
In any case, I think the Goswamins were talking about those who cultivate knowledge without bhakti with the objective of increasing their status in the world and diminishing the status of Bhagavan in the eyes of others, like those who are too attached to nAstika philosophies and those who are mostly searching for fame and recognition from a religious position of influence. The whole critical thinking thing seems to be part of the language some missionaries made popular in the west in recent times, responding to old attacks from early western academics and public figures who would criticise their faith and believes as backwards and superstitious during the time of British ruling. We have come a long way since those days, I hope.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2019 12:28:00 GMT -6
Ed my advise is not to bogged down to much with this nitty gritty ( kuti nati ) you will loose the stream and bhakti will disappear. Let follow the Chanting that is one should aspire for. Just an advise as well wisher. Sri Jiva has warned us at the very beginng of Tattwa Sandarbha one should not use his writings of sidhdhanta in this book to satisfy the own false ego of Critcal Thinking and said the Wishdom of Bhakti is not for them. Subrato Babu, what exactly are you saying here? It is unclear to me. Cite your sources please (Tattva-sandarbha). The search for the truth through critical thinking and questioning is not false ego. This is the real svadharma of the jivas. False ego is the smug belief that one already knows the truth and that one should follow blindly. Nobody wants blind followers, least of all Krsna and Mahaprabhu or any guru worth the name. The wisdom of bhakti is surely not blind faith. Bhakti is a special form of knowledge (jnana-visesa), not a special form of ignorance (avidya-visesa). Jay Nitai, Nitai Das Ji hope your address to me Subrata to Subrata Babu is not an sarcastic one. For the reference of Sri Jiva's warning check any of the Sandarva's introduction section by Sri Jiva himself. I do not have access to my library to quote from them the reference, but it was a definite reference. BTW, what do you mean by critical thinking? Do you mean by this material mind, intellect and ego one can interpret sastra even without getting shelter from Sri Guru, thereby SadhuSanga and years of spiritual practice to bring the chiita free of offence and nirlmal ( un-polluted state ) thereby getting the Adhikar as recipient of grace to understand -> assimilate & comprehend -> realized -> visioned -> thereby entering the truth of sastra ? Do you think the people in this kind of virtual board with visible/invisible appearance is any position to attain the state I am talking about. And you really mean without years of sadhu sanga , years of not doing practice -> years of detachment of dhama one can also employ critical mind to judge transcendental knowledge revealed by sastra? And encouraging jr. aspiring practitioners in doing so is not a great dis-service to the community? And what was the result as we have seen in previous all virtual discussion board? Wild - Imagination -> absurd claim -> Commit Aparadha -> Disappearance of initial Bhakti Samskar -> and at last say good by to the path of Bhakti as obvious end state -> and become member of ex-gaudiya vaishnava community to discuss "horrific" experience as so called "Vaishnava". Is it the path you want to show this neophyte sincere , honest aspiring vaishnava? Is this the way as prescribed by Acharyya to receive the grace and attain the first step i.e Sradhdha? Rather Achryyas taught us to be extremely humble in getting association of Great / Mahat -> Search for Sri Guru Sincerely -> Associate with Sri Guru in both way to understand if he is bets fit for oneself for one years -> and once one is found that Mahatma is the chosen one for Sri Guru -> Then complete surrender no looking back ( Saranagati & Sradhdha )? Sastra has kept critical thinking, Vichar, etc. to be acted as achryya for those advance & accomplished sadhaka who moved up the stage of Anartha Nibritti ie. always on the stage of Swarup Sphurti to be acted as Achryya to show the path to the rest the community ( loka - samgraha ). Mind it this is a journey of life time and spanned across multiple life time to acquire samaskar drop by drop in each birth advancement? If you are not agree with this path, please do not claim to be a vaishnava and be honest stop pretending being followeres of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. BTW what is wisdwom or Gyana ? Is it the merely some letter of sastra? At what level of connciousness Sastra becomes Murtiman and manfested as Sri Vigraha? How the letters becomes contiguous expression of wisdown & bacome full manifestation of Gyan? How rather than discrete expression by language sastra become full non-discrete manifestation-> a contiguous - integral manifestation of truth can only be seen by rishi having arsha-praggya? How acharys told the current sastra's are just dig-darshini -> a direction notification for the sadhakas world? and how mere language short fall in expressing fully that wisdowm in Sastra? And you think one can sit long distance without any sadhana employed there own reference set with false ego of implicit self justification to pass the verdict on right / wrong as envisage for thounsands of years by Rishi's? That why Mahaprabhu instructed "Bhagavat Podo Giya Vasihnaver Sthane". Think about it , reflect it and rectify if possible. I will answer some the questions asked below for Mahamantra thread which created unnecessary confusion because of the above root cause as I cited . Jay Nitai |
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Post by Nitaidas on Oct 6, 2019 22:20:54 GMT -6
Subrato Babu, I seem to have hit a real sensitive nerve with you. You seem angry and upset with me. I swear I am not being sarcastic with you when I call you Babu. I refer to many of my Bengali friends in this way. Nor, did I have you in mind when I said, "False ego is the smug belief that one already knows the truth and that one should follow blindly." I value your input here and respect your knowledge of the Caitanya Vaisnava tradition as it currently exists in India. I don't, however, think that you are always right and I don't think your warning applied to Eduardo at all. The verse you refer to from Sri Jiva Goswami's Tattva-sandarbha is this (6):
yaḥ śrīkṛṣṇapadāmbhojabhajanaikābhilāṣavān|
tenaiva dṛśyatāmetadanyasmai śapatho'rpitaḥ||
This does not mean what you claim it means. It means:
One whose sole wish is to worship the lotus feet of Sri Krsna is the one who qualified to study this book. Let the others be cursed.
[Added note: Sri Jiva in his Sarva-samvadini commentary on this verse glosses "eka" by "mukhya" thereby softening his meaning from "only desire" to "primary desire."]
That fits Eduardo to a tee. He has been humbly pursuing this path for years, studying every book on CV he can find and asking excellent, insightful questions about the tradition. You don't even know him. How do you know that he doesn't have Sri Krsnapadambhoja-bhajana-eka-abhilasa? All you know about him is that he has not been initiated yet. There are plenty of people who have been initiated who have less abhilasa than he. So simply based on the fact that he is not yet initiated you assume that he has no such abhilasa? This is not good, brother.
He knows the importance of finding a qualified guru. He also knows that not all gurus are really qualified. Look at the IGM gurus. Even our Vaisnava scriptures tell us that the disciple should test a potential guru for a year. The guru from his side should test a potential disciple for a year, as well. It is not a one-sided interaction. If a guru is a fool and cannot give the proper answers, he should be rejected. This testing {pariksa) is what I meant by critical thinking in his case. We are encouraged to use our brains even before we have chosen to accept a guru. There is no question of material or spiritual.
I hope you can understand this. If you feel anger at my saying this, it just might be your false ego that is the problem.
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