How do you see the rasa lila?

[malati]

Everyone, please help me understand this topic. This question has been bugging me for a long time.

The God concept has always been in my mind since I was 6. Although I am at peace at the idea that there’s a God Krishna with his ontological qualities such as omniscience,omnipresent, omnipotent and eternality , I still can not honestly say that I have completely made sense of his ananda quality , specifically the erotic rasa .

Is God the literal Krishna copulating with Radha in some certain realm of reality? Should we take it as just that, literally.

Should it be taken as like the discipline of mathematics where the number itself need have no relevance to the physical world. And where we do not need to understand what the symbols like 5, 4, +, / actually mean. But as long as we recognize the symbols and stick to the rules of mathematics we will get the right answer.
Similarly, in the context of bhajan, as long as we recognize the rasa lila and follow the rules (getting the suddha nama from a bonafide source, sincerely committing to the raganuga sadhana) we will get to the right destination.

Or should we see it this way. The erotic lila has layers of reality. And it is reality in so far as that layer of reality allows us to see it as real. In other words, it is a reality in the physical world when it appears as reality as a poem through the pages of the book. And it is also a reality that has leaped to another layer when we see it through our “mindseye” in the so-called mindscape , another layer of reality.

Is the rasa lila then just a medium or poetic language which have symbolic meaning by which to understand love for God in the 2 layers we can access, the physical and the mind.

For example
Krishna’s youth = his eternality
Krishna’s dancing with the 16,000 gopis simultaneously, fully satisfying each and everyone of them = his omniprescence, omnipotency, his ananda quality
The Rada Krishna sambhoga = He as the seed of life or perhaps as a pleasure giving energy available to the jiva when he has reached that supreme destination by which he can have relationship with God.

Does that mean that the rasa lila is an open reality subject to the devotees relationship with Kirshna?

Going back to the literal understanding of the lila. Buddhists believe that everthing is just a phenomenon. That is to say that there is no truth because nothing is the truth. Therefore the goal of Buddhist meditative practice is to deconceptualize because conceptualization means something.

GVism is the complete opposite . We believe that there is something and that something is God, so we conceptualize.

Conceptualization gives rise to the anthromorphic principle. It has basis. The bible says we are made from the image of God. GVism has something similar: we are part and parcel of Krishna. It follows that we project ourselves in our understanding of God. We ea,t so God eats. We have sex, so God have sex.

Thus the erotic rasa lila found a detailed place in the writings of the acharyas. That is well and good. But my problem with taking the lila too literally is the tendency to render it as facts of reality to the point of sounding too contrived. And when it’s too contrived (one devotee in Advaitadas’ blog ask if the manjaris menstruate) the narrative becomes a candidate to becoming a bedtime story for peeping Tom.

Recognize that all religions have a curious fixation with erotica and sex. In our own temples we worship the phallus through the lingam. The cream of our philosophy the prema is beautifully presented separation vipralambra and union sambhoga. And another offshoot of this fixation is that God and sex do not mix. Thus celibacy is equated to Godliness and when pushed to the extreme has dire consequences .

I have a daily mental seva to the divine couple and it is developing as a much satisfying reality than reading books on the lila or my seva at my altar.

What do you all think?

Thanks

Radhe Radhe

[Nitaidas]

Jun 4, 2009 6:18:46 GMT -6 malati said:

Everyone, please help me understand this topic. This question has been bugging me for a long time.

The God concept has always been in my mind since I was 6. Although I am at peace at the idea that there’s a God Krishna with his ontological qualities such as omniscience,omnipresent, omnipotent and eternality , I still can not honestly say that I have completely made sense of his ananda quality , specifically the erotic rasa .

Is God the literal Krishna copulating with Radha in some certain realm of reality? Should we take it as just that, literally.

Should it be taken as like the discipline of mathematics where the number itself need have no relevance to the physical world. And where we do not need to understand what the symbols like 5, 4, +, / actually mean. But as long as we recognize the symbols and stick to the rules of mathematics we will get the right answer.
Similarly, in the context of bhajan, as long as we recognize the rasa lila and follow the rules (getting the suddha nama from a bonafide source, sincerely committing to the raganuga sadhana) we will get to the right destination.

Or should we see it this way. The erotic lila has layers of reality. And it is reality in so far as that layer of reality allows us to see it as real. In other words, it is a reality in the physical world when it appears as reality as a poem through the pages of the book. And it is also a reality that has leaped to another layer when we see it through our “mindseye” in the so-called mindscape , another layer of reality.

Is the rasa lila then just a medium or poetic language which have symbolic meaning by which to understand love for God in the 2 layers we can access, the physical and the mind.

For example
Krishna’s youth = his eternality
Krishna’s dancing with the 16,000 gopis simultaneously, fully satisfying each and everyone of them = his omniprescence, omnipotency, his ananda quality
The Rada Krishna sambhoga = He as the seed of life or perhaps as a pleasure giving energy available to the jiva when he has reached that supreme destination by which he can have relationship with God.

Does that mean that the rasa lila is an open reality subject to the devotees relationship with Kirshna?

Going back to the literal understanding of the lila. Buddhists believe that everthing is just a phenomenon. That is to say that there is no truth because nothing is the truth. Therefore the goal of Buddhist meditative practice is to deconceptualize because conceptualization means something.

GVism is the complete opposite . We believe that there is something and that something is God, so we conceptualize.

Conceptualization gives rise to the anthromorphic principle. It has basis. The bible says we are made from the image of God. GVism has something similar: we are part and parcel of Krishna. It follows that we project ourselves in our understanding of God. We ea,t so God eats. We have sex, so God have sex.

Thus the erotic rasa lila found a detailed place in the writings of the acharyas. That is well and good. But my problem with taking the lila too literally is the tendency to render it as facts of reality to the point of sounding too contrived. And when it’s too contrived (one devotee in Advaitadas’ blog ask if the manjaris menstruate) the narrative becomes a candidate to becoming a bedtime story for peeping Tom.

Recognize that all religions have a curious fixation with erotica and sex. In our own temples we worship the phallus through the lingam. The cream of our philosophy the prema is beautifully presented separation vipralambra and union sambhoga. And another offshoot of this fixation is that God and sex do not mix. Thus celibacy is equated to Godliness and when pushed to the extreme has dire consequences .

I have a daily mental seva to the divine couple and it is developing as a much satisfying reality than reading books on the lila or my seva at my altar.

What do you all think?

Thanks

Radhe Radhe

I am not sure I have any really good answers to your question, or even if I have correctly understood it. Are you asking whether it is alright to think of the erotic lila as metaphorical, rather than taking it literally? I tend to favor the fourfold interpretive strategy that was developed by our Jewish brothers and sisters and adopted by later Christian hermeneuts as well. That is to interpret the sacred texts on a literal level, a legal/ethical level, an allegorical level and a mystical level. All of these levels are intended by Krsna and have complex and profound interrelationships between them. There may be even more than four that have not yet been discovered or revealed.

The first level on which the texts or stories operate is the literal level. One has to grasp it correctly on that level in order for all the other levels to operate because the other levels are echoes or reverberations of the literal level. So yes, the literal sense in which Krsna copulates with Radha and the other Gopis is very important. But remember that copulation is part of a whole dance in which they tease each other and joke with each other and miss each other and so forth. It is the whole package that is important not just the event of their copulation.

On the legal level one learns something about how we should behave in our lives and sadhana. That is to say we are given rules to act and to live by. Thus, we learn from say the Rasa-lila, the circle dance, that we are not able to imitate Krsna, because he can dance with each and every gopi and give her his full attention and we cannot. Or, that one must learn to control one's sexual desire because Krsna is described there, in the midst of all that beauty and sexual tension, as hrdi avaruddharetas. ``one who has withheld his sexual power (literally, seed)." There are any number of other tips on how we should act when we look at the stories from the legalistic or ethical level.

Then there is the allegorical level. There the love affair between Krsna and Radha becomes an allegory for the way the soul may come close to God or come to love God, or for the way in which we must live in the world in separation from Krsna, etc. Finally there is the mystical level in which the state of union of Radha and Krsna, as they are joined intimately together in one being in the midst of the bower, represents the ultimate union of the soul with God. This does not have to be envisioned as a loss of individuality in any way, but union in the sense of intense intimacy with Krsna, being one with his will, acting always with him in mind or as if he were always just there with you, etc.

I think we are justified in interpreting these events of intimate lila as they are represented in the extant literature on all of those various levels and others besides. Don't be put off by my rather shallow examples. This can be a truly profound way experiencing Ksna-lila. I only grabbed these examples off the top of my head. I am sure that with deeper reflection better examples can be found. As we meditate on the lila or simply on the holy name, various aspects of these levels will manifest themselves to us.

[madanmohandas]

Perhaps with over-analasys a synthesis is lost. I was hoping that the pleasure derived from absorbtion in Hari Katha would eventually lead to a deeper understanding and even realisation of some wonderful state, and am still proceeding on that assumtion.
Aside from the four levels of reading mentioned above, there is also the deeper appriciation and understanding derived from repeated readings of a text, which if not done, cant be known.
Questions like those mentioned above about manjaris menstruating seem quite irrelavant and inappropriate and perhaps that's why it is supposed to be confidential subject, separating the divine from the profane.

[madanmohandas]

Even here in England people will tell you that the Queen does not use the toilet, ie., one is not to think of her majesty on that throne. ;

[Deleted]

To understand the higher taste of Krishna's lust, one must conquer over mundane lust.
If people remain addicted to the taste of screwing a soggy cucumber, why do they come here to talk about krishna's eroticsm? Would they understand if it was explained?
Or are they asking to compare to their own sex?

[avadhuta]

Malati:
"I have a daily mental seva to the divine couple and it is developing as much satisfying reality than reading books on the lila or my seva at my altar."

It seems to me a mental seva which is much more satisfying than reading books on the lila or doing puja at the altar is a rare achievement. Or, more precisely, a great mercy has descended on you. Answers to your own questions are sure to come naturally from such satisfaction.

[JD33]

Sept 22, 2019 1:09:32 GMT -6 Nitaidas said:

I am not sure I have any really good answers to your question, or even if I have correctly understood it. Are you asking whether it is alright to think of the erotic lila as metaphorical, rather than taking it literally? I tend to favor the fourfold interpretive strategy that was developed by our Jewish brothers and sisters and adopted by later Christian hermeneuts as well. That is to interpret the sacred texts on a literal level, a legal/ethical level, an allegorical level and a mystical level. All of these levels are intended by Krsna and have complex and profound interrelationships between them. There may be even more than four that have not yet been discovered or revealed.

The first level on which the texts or stories operate is the literal level. One has to grasp it correctly on that level in order for all the other levels to operate because the other levels are echoes or reverberations of the literal level. So yes, the literal sense in which Krsna copulates with Radha and the other Gopis is very important. But remember that copulation is part of a whole dance in which they tease each other and joke with each other and miss each other and so forth. It is the whole package that is important not just the event of their copulation.

On the legal level one learns something about how we should behave in our lives and sadhana. That is to say we are given rules to act and to live by. Thus, we learn from say the Rasa-lila, the circle dance, that we are not able to imitate Krsna, because he can dance with each and every gopi and give her his full attention and we cannot. Or, that one must learn to control one's sexual desire because Krsna is described there, in the midst of all that beauty and sexual tension, as hrdi avaruddharetas. ``one who has withheld his sexual power (literally, seed)." There are any number of other tips on how we should act when we look at the stories from the legalistic or ethical level.

Then there is the allegorical level. There the love affair between Krsna and Radha becomes an allegory for the way the soul may come close to God or come to love God, or for the way in which we must live in the world in separation from Krsna, etc. Finally there is the mystical level in which the state of union of Radha and Krsna, as they are joined intimately together in one being in the midst of the bower, represents the ultimate union of the soul with God. This does not have to be envisioned as a loss of individuality in any way, but union in the sense of intense intimacy with Krsna, being one with his will, acting always with him in mind or as if he were always just there with you, etc.

I think we are justified in interpreting these events of intimate lila as they are represented in the extant literature on all of those various levels and others besides. Don't be put off by my rather shallow examples. This can be a truly profound way experiencing Ksna-lila. I only grabbed these examples off the top of my head. I am sure that with deeper reflection better examples can be found. As we meditate on the lila or simply on the holy name, various aspects of these levels will manifest themselves to us.

Thank you Nitai,

This is brilliant work. I am bringing this up for the newer people involved here to contemplate. and respond to as well.

[JD33]

Sept 18, 2009 18:20:06 GMT -6 avadhuta said:

Malati:
"I have a daily mental seva to the divine couple and it is developing as much satisfying reality than reading books on the lila or my seva at my altar."

It seems to me a mental seva which is much more satisfying than reading books on the lila or doing puja at the altar is a rare achievement. Or, more precisely, a great mercy has descended on you. Answers to your own questions are sure to come naturally from such satisfaction.

I agree with avadhut here. Good going Malati.

[meeno8]

Hmmmm.... one should ponder those levels of meanings in poring over the corpus on rasa topics, without doubt. The circle dance is about maadhurya rasa. That is what CV adherents want to cultivate, rather than the other 4. The understanding given to us by Rupa Goswami Prabhupada is we have this seed planted and it needs to be watered so it can grow. Then there is the sunlight needed to nourish it (divine grace from above, if you will). Not that our siddha dehas are plants, but that is the analogy supplied to us. Nama japa, kirtana, puja, lila-smaranam (with the siddha pranali imparted by the guru) are all part of the package, the sadhana (means of attainment). Hope that helps.

[JD33]

I noticed that if one did all the elements of CV Tradition - the magic manifests.

[service to Radha's feet]

I have been thinking of reading the rasa lila from the Gita Press Bhagavata edition. I only read the rasa lila many, many years ago from Krishna Book which is an un-rasik presentation. I have made it one of my goals in life to go through the 5 chapters and try to experience it as a raganuga sadhaka practicing within the tradition. I have read the astakaliya lila version of the rasa lila about a month ago from the Sri Krishna Bhavanamrta of Sri Visvanath Chakravarti. Wow! That was a powerful experience! It showed how Radha is non-different from Krishna, so much so, that they exchange roles and They, nor the gopis cannot tell who is who. It gave me a deeper insight into the non difference of Radha and Krishna. It will be Maha Rasa Lila in a couple of nights. Maybe we will read it then. I will share with you what experiences or insights I may have.

[madanmohandas]

Radhapada Dasa prabhuji,

if you like you can see my rendering of the Five Cantos of the Rasa in heroic couplets. You will find it in the poetry section among other cantos of Book Ten there. There is a little paraphrasing in Canto 29, but the rest are all verse by verse.