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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2010 11:30:24 GMT -6
If I get time I would like to explore this virtual world a bit more... but it seems to me we need virtual money for this? Also, I looked at some of the images from SL... saw some truly gorgeous forest scenes, but all the avatars I saw looked a bit inappropriate (at best). No luck downloading the software. Guess I'll just stick with RL and Facebook for now.  |
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Post by Ekantin on Feb 14, 2010 13:26:54 GMT -6
If I get time I would like to explore this virtual world a bit more... but it seems to me we need virtual money for this? Also, I looked at some of the images from SL... saw some truly gorgeous forest scenes, but all the avatars I saw looked a bit inappropriate (at best). No luck downloading the software. Guess I'll just stick with RL and Facebook for now. I saw this devotee page a while ago: Satya's Wonderings, where she describes looking around Second Life. Seems like the IGM folks already have communities and virtual temples set up already. Interesting possibilities, this Second Life offers... |
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 14, 2010 13:58:08 GMT -6
What do you mean by materialistic? This is precisely the dualistic view that is turning out to be problematic, maybe even detrimental to our cultivation of Krsna mind. The old distinction between matter and spirit was either mistaken or a temporary rouse to help living beings get beyond a certain stage of self-discovery. The clue is in the fact that according to CV we are all the energy or power of Krsna. The distinction between internal and external is arbitrary and ultimately superficial. The challenge for modern CV and other religious traditions is to overcome this language of duality that characterizes many of the scriptural and textual expressions of those traditions and translate them into a monistic terminology. This physics text that I am reading at present has an interesting way of expressing this. It suggests that what we think of as matter is really "light frozen by gravity." Now one might say that I am pushing monism too much and that this is a tradition of undifference AND difference. This may be so. But I think was have tended to think of thinks too much in terms of difference and not enough in terms of non-difference. Thus, I think that using computers and computer programs and gloves and what not are not materialistic at all, certainly not any more than offering flowers and water to images. If I were a foolish fanatic I would push the claim that computers were developed for just such a purpose. But, I am not. I find that whole way of looking at things repugnant and extraordinarily self-aggrandizing. Some thoughts on the above I think that materialism is not excluded from a monistic worldview. I believe in one continuum that has divinity on one end and fossilized consciousness, stone or matter on the other. If you concentrate too much on the stone end you could be a materialist. Computers belong to that end of the spectrum. But then, the very basis of Hinduism is dualistic from the Rigvedic sat/asat to the Samkhya purusha/prakriti dichotomy. Besides how is bhakti even possible without the distinction between object and subject? I agree with your "the distinction between internal and external is arbitrary and ultimately superficial" but in how far is that just a theoretical statement. What is your experimental basis for saying this? As long as it just quoting books you FIRST have to get very well established in a meditation that goes inward, then you will experience why some people talk that way and then you wouldn't be throwing this kind of sentences around. The ISKCON way of "meditating" is almost always directed outward, toward the murti's, that seems to be your only expertise, please first learn real meditation. You just quoted "light frozen by gravity", sounds nice, so Vivekenanda, by do you really know what light is, or tachyons, or gravity; even quantum physicist hardly understand what they are saying. You sound like a New Age girl who - finally in 1985 - discovers Fritjof Capra. When you're so interested in using computers you could get, with Ekantin the neuro-specialist and also a self-confessed atheist (so he doesn't need God's grace either in having mystical experiences) a God-helmet and finally get some sort of mystical experience: www.shaktitechnology.com/shiva/God Helmet/index.htm and I would reserve the word "self-aggrandizing" for advaitins who think they are God. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, gerard. Didn't really mean to. Your remarks seem a bit hasty and maybe wide of the mark. If you believe in a continuum then you are really talking about one thing and specifying one end spiritual and the other end material is precisely the kind of arbitrariness I was referring to. It is all in the way one looks at it. If one's vision is dull what one sees appears dull. If something is used for or offered to Bhagavan one's vision of that thing is transformed, provided Bhagavan means something to one. To others it might just appear as a flower or cup of water. The thing has not changed, one's perception of it has changed. As for the Veda being dualistic, I think that is simply wrong. Sometimes it appears to be dualistic and other times it appears to be monistic. It is clearly both. There is no real dualism in the Vedic world except in classical Sankhya, which is extra-Vedic, but when that becomes absorbed into the mainstream Prakrti becomes dependent on Purusa. Just see how it is treated in the Bhagavata. Even Madhva is not being completely honest when he holds up his two fingers. For him all tattvas are dependent on Bhagavan and thus are not really independent. No independence, no true duality. This business of inward and outward is such an illusion. Do you really think that because you close your eyes you are going inward? These are just figurative expressions. You are not going inward when you meditate you are just focusing your mind in a particular way. It has nothing to do with going in or going out. Those are just metaphors. I am am a little surprised at you, gerard. You are such a sophisticated person and yet you are taken in by this language. Anyway, you are right about quantum physics. It is still in its infancy and people hardly know what they are talking about yet. Still, though the theories are just theories, they know better about those things than we do. They are the apta in this field. When I quote them I do so with the understanding that they are likely to change their theories as new evidence becomes available. But I quote scripture like that too. When I quote scripture I do not mean to imply that I believe I am stating the truth. I am merely stating what some people believed to be the truth and that I am willing to give consideration to their views. Actually, I like Ekantin and the positions he takes. He is more honest than many who blabber some form of pseudo-spiritual, transcendental mumbo-jumbo. Besides, I have already expressed my opinions on atheism in other parts of this forum. I think it is the goal towards which we are moving. We want to become friends and lovers of Krsna, not quivering, frightened grovelers at his feet. Theism must be subverted before that can happen. Self-aggrandizing also applies, in my view, to people who present themselves as great bhaktas as well as to those who think they are the "most fallen." As for computers, I see them as tools that can be used to help focus the mind on Krsna. There is nothing material about them. |
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Post by Ekantin on Feb 14, 2010 14:29:50 GMT -6
What do you mean by materialistic? This is precisely the dualistic view that is turning out to be problematic, maybe even detrimental to our cultivation of Krsna mind. The old distinction between matter and spirit was either mistaken or a temporary rouse to help living beings get beyond a certain stage of self-discovery. The clue is in the fact that according to CV we are all the energy or power of Krsna. The distinction between internal and external is arbitrary and ultimately superficial. The challenge for modern CV and other religious traditions is to overcome this language of duality that characterizes many of the scriptural and textual expressions of those traditions and translate them into a monistic terminology. This physics text that I am reading at present has an interesting way of expressing this. It suggests that what we think of as matter is really "light frozen by gravity." Now one might say that I am pushing monism too much and that this is a tradition of undifference AND difference. This may be so. But I think was have tended to think of thinks too much in terms of difference and not enough in terms of non-difference. Thus, I think that using computers and computer programs and gloves and what not are not materialistic at all, certainly not any more than offering flowers and water to images. If I were a foolish fanatic I would push the claim that computers were developed for just such a purpose. But, I am not. I find that whole way of looking at things repugnant and extraordinarily self-aggrandizing. Some thoughts on the above I think that materialism is not excluded from a monistic worldview. I believe in one continuum that has divinity on one end and fossilized consciousness, stone or matter on the other. If you concentrate too much on the stone end you could be a materialist. Computers belong to that end of the spectrum. But then, the very basis of Hinduism is dualistic from the Rigvedic sat/asat to the Samkhya purusha/prakriti dichotomy. Besides how is bhakti even possible without the distinction between object and subject? I agree with your "the distinction between internal and external is arbitrary and ultimately superficial" but in how far is that just a theoretical statement. What is your experimental basis for saying this? As long as it just quoting books you FIRST have to get very well established in a meditation that goes inward, then you will experience why some people talk that way and then you wouldn't be throwing this kind of sentences around. The ISKCON way of "meditating" is almost always directed outward, toward the murti's, that seems to be your only expertise, please first learn real meditation. You just quoted "light frozen by gravity", sounds nice, so Vivekenanda, by do you really know what light is, or tachyons, or gravity; even quantum physicist hardly understand what they are saying. You sound like a New Age girl who - finally in 1985 - discovers Fritjof Capra. When you're so interested in using computers you could get, with Ekantin the neuro-specialist and also a self-confessed atheist (so he doesn't need God's grace either in having mystical experiences) a God-helmet and finally get some sort of mystical experience: www.shaktitechnology.com/shiva/God Helmet/index.htm and I would reserve the word "self-aggrandizing" for advaitins who think they are God. Gerard, I don't think Nitai's comments were directed personally at you but were very general, so I find it odd why you seem to have taken them personally and responded angrily. I wouldn't even have said this were it not for your above attack and attempt to drag me into it. But since you have, I'll comment. You are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe regarding your idea of a material-spiritual continuum, but I'm not really interested in beliefs. I prefer facts, so I would be more interested in your experimental basis for declaring the same. Assuming that you even have one, one single experiential testimony won't be enough to convince me that such a continuum exists in objective reality. Perhaps objective reality doesn't mean much to you considering your earlier statement about this being a Mayic (illusory, unreal) world, but I guess we don't agree there either. Frankly I can't understand how anyone can seriously stand up and say how they think the universe in unreal. Regarding meditation, it is true that ISKCON-type meditation almost always focuses outwardly. If I was in a generous mood, I'd say it was part of their preaching strategy. You know, chanting japa out loudly benefits anyone who hears it, and all of that. But as a method of advancing personal growth, I agree that it lacks the focus that is prominent in other spiritual organisations devoted to deep meditation. However, it is obvious that you haven't experienced much of the real Caitanya tradition, by the methods of which inner growth and development IS emphasised. I haven't experienced much of it either, but I was grateful for the opportunity of coming in touch with it and knowing about it. You cannot know this if you have been in ISKCON and Gaudiya Math because they don't seem to have a clue about it. REAL CV is all about inward meditation and inward spiritual advancement. If you have been following the discussion, Nitai has been talking of this all along with his frequent references to manasik-seva, the difference between mantramayi-upanasana and svarasiki-upasana, etc. One who has enough knowledge of the real CV traditions can immediately understand what these things are and where they lead. But what we are talking about here is the possibility of developing outward (computerised) tools as a practice method for engaging in that inner quest because, as you should know from your many years of Zen meditation, not everyone is immediately accomplished at it. Or perhaps if you think you know something about "real" meditation that no one else knows, perhaps you can enlighten us poor fools. Now to your next point. You're somewhat correct in pointing out that I have no real interest or investment in all of this because I am a "neuro-specialist" who knows that mystical experiences are wholly generated and limited in terms of brain function. When perfectly engaging and interactive visions CAN be artificially generated, there's nothing to confirm that experiences gained by more "organic" procedures have any guarantee of authenticity. I think it is a great pity that you and many, many people do not know this because if you did, you would realise how ridiculous all these spiritual talks of meditation and progress sounds. However, those "God Helmets" you linked to are extraordinarily tacky and opportunistic, and clearly a money-making business. I am not interested in that, but I am interested in understanding how different neural processes come together and generate meaningful hallucinations. So thanks for reminding me about it because I was planning to start a discussion on this subject soon in another sub-forum, and explain exactly how spiritual experiences can be generated by neural functions. Perhaps you can read and contribute there to tell me what an idiot I am, we shall see. |
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Post by gerard on Feb 14, 2010 17:30:06 GMT -6
Sorry, Nitai, the word "detrimental" set me off a bit, I shouldn't have said that about the New Age girl, that was uncalled for. I came back to the board to delete that but you had already replied.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 14, 2010 23:15:40 GMT -6
Sorry, Nitai, the word "detrimental" set me off a bit, I shouldn't have said that about the New Age girl, that was uncalled for. I came back to the board to delete that but you had already replied. It's alright, gerard. I didn't mean to provoke you, but I did come down a bit hard on what I think of as a kind of facile dualism that I hear reverberating around me. I certainly don't associate that way of thinking with you. I am probably arguing with the me of just a few years ago. And I admit I probably do sound like a teenage girl who has belatedly found out about Fritjof Capra. I have never read him, but the book I am currently reading comes from that period (1970s). It is no doubt way out of date, but I am gathering some good ideas from it that I hope will help me eventually tackle and maybe understand someone like Bohm. Bohm was a maverick who was regarded with suspicion by his physicist colleagues, especially after the Krsnamurti alliance. Still, he was brilliant and knew quantum physics well. He understood the universe as a unity and yet still had room for consciousness. I am curious how he worked that out. Do you know? |
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Post by gerard on Feb 16, 2010 9:25:02 GMT -6
Well, just to clarify my statement about the continuum; on one end divine consciousness and on the other end, I said, fossilized consciousness, which is also called matter. To me that makes one continuum.
If you look at matter from the physical point of view, if you would take all the space out of all the particles, all neutrons and muons and quarks etc. in the universe you would be left with less than a pinhead. You could say, that is a real pinhead, but to me it would be tantamount to maya. You could consider the terms neutrons, muons etc as metaphors if you like.
What I don't think is a metaphor is the inward movement of meditation. In the zen meditation you are actually not allowed to entirely close your eyes. They have to remain open a little bit, so as not to get lost in your inner space (that is a metaphor of course)
But the experience of the inner space turning into outer space is not easy to describe. I'm afraid I'm not sophisticated enough to descibe that properly. It is not 3-D and at the same it is. In my experiences for instance the airplane above was flying through me, but than without the "me". The skull is not a confinement anymore.
I once quoted Makarios on this forum somewhere who saw in his inner vision boats and mountains and angels and the apostles and everything; transcendent and physical appearances start to mix.
Same in the old legends and mythologies where several levels of existence are mixed together.
In my experiences the use of tools in meditation (I used the alpha-phone for bio-feedback in the late 60s and some other devices later) let me to conclude that they alienate yourself from yourself. Other people have expressed that same feeling.
I'm glad to hear that in the Rigveda there is also a bhedabheda philosphy to be found. I was just talking from memory. I know people like Feuerstein, Frawley and Kak are trying to prove that the Rigveda is actually advaitic, but I haven't read much of them yet. If you combine that with the sat/asat dualism we might have bhedabheda.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 16, 2010 11:54:20 GMT -6
Thanks for your clarification, gerard. I am still not sure how much clearer fossilized consciousness is than gravitationally frozen light. Consciousness is a mystery. Is consciousness the sort of thing that can be fossilized? We really don't what it is. We can measure light and gravity or at least their effects, but how does one measure consciousness?
As far as inner and outer are concerned, I still think them to be merely metaphors. In actuality, all of our experience happens inside us, even our experience of the world around us. So it is more of a matter of switching channels from the channels that bring us sensory data from our senses to some other channels that operate based on stored memories or perhaps connect us with some other plane of existence. When we envision a tree or forest or river we are doing so on the basis of images and data that is stored in our memories which are stored in our brains. But those have their roots in the world around us, the so-called external world. We could not even begin to visualize Krsna-lila were it not for the vast amount of sensory data we have stored up to piece it together with. I suppose one could say that those are inside us, but it really depends on what one means by "us." Is inside our skulls, inside us? So my question is what is inner experience in?
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Post by gerard on Feb 16, 2010 13:46:52 GMT -6
I am still not sure how much clearer fossilized consciousness is than gravitationally frozen light. That is true of course, and for the other items, those I don't understand either. This all too difficult for me, or for language. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 16, 2010 17:23:39 GMT -6
I guess I should not say "merely" metaphors. Good metaphors go a long way in helping us understand difficult, hard to grasp topics. Yes, you are right. It is a very difficult subject matter. Still, I feel inclined to try to understand it even if with the help of metaphors if need be.
So the question for me is: is there a channel of communication directly to Krsna or at least to the divine realm which is opened through sadhana. If so, what does that channel look like? How does it operate? One of the interesting things about this book I am currently reading is the discussion of worm-holes, small black holes that connect every part of the world with every other part of the world. They are said to be constantly opening up and closing. Do such things really exist? If so, it means that we are always and immediately connected with Krsna and Radha and every other point of space and time and beyond.
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Post by JD33 on Mar 5, 2010 23:29:07 GMT -6
It could be true except why say immediately? There is a veil that apparently stops one from going there. The veil can be opened from the other side - I have seen that - the question then is how to open it up from this side..... and how to know if it is the right thing to do at any given time. Are we ready to open that veil, even if we know how to? I trust the Siddha Baba who opened the veil in front of me......... I guess I trust that when I am ready He, or my Blessed Gurudev, will open it up for me to then enter into that realm.
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Post by Ekantin on May 13, 2010 14:13:13 GMT -6
Virtual reality used to transfer men's minds into a woman's bodyResearchers projected men's sense of self into a virtual reality woman, changing the way they behaved and thought Ian Sample guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 12 May 2010 22.00 BST Scientists have transferred men's minds into a virtual woman's body in an experiment that could enlighten the prejudiced and shed light on how humans distinguish themselves from others. In a study at Barcelona University, men donned a virtual reality (VR) headset that allowed them to see and hear the world as a female character. When they looked down they could even see their new body and clothes. The "body-swapping" effect was so convincing that the men's sense of self was transferred into the virtual woman, causing them to react reflexively to events in the virtual world in which they were immersed. Men who took part in the experiment reported feeling as though they occupied the woman's body and even gasped and flinched when she was slapped by another character in the virtual world. "This work opens up another avenue for virtual reality, which is not just to transform your sense of place, but also your sense of self," said Mel Slater, a virtual reality researcher at the Catalan Institute of Research and Advanced Studies and University College London. "There isn't any other technology that allows you to look down and see another body that isn't yours and give you the illusion that it is," he said. "If you can temporarily give people the illusion that their bodies are different, then the evidence suggests it also affects their behaviour and the way they think. They can have new experiences: a person who is thin can know what it's like to be fat. A man can have an experience of what it's like to be a woman." In the study, 24 men took turns wearing a VR headset that immersed them in a virtual room. Some men saw the virtual environment through the eyes of a female character who was sitting down, while others had a viewpoint that was just to the side of her. During the experiment, a second virtual female approached and appeared to rub the person's shoulder or arm. Researchers in the lab mimicked this sensation in the real world for some of the volunteers by rubbing their shoulder or arm, helping to reinforce their feeling of occupying the character's body. Later in the study, the second character lashed out and slapped the face of the character the men were playing. "Their reaction was immediate," said Slater. "They would take in a quick breath and maybe move their head to one side. Some moved their whole bodies. The more people reported being in the girl's body, the stronger physical reaction they had." Sensors on the men's bodies showed their heart rates fell sharply for a few seconds and then ramped up – a classic response to a perceived attack. As expected, the body swapping effect was felt more keenly by men who saw their virtual world through the female character's eyes than those whose viewpoint was slightly to one side of her. In all cases, the feeling was temporary and lasted only as long as the study. The study, which appears in the online science journal PLoS One, suggests that our minds have a very fluid picture of our bodies. The research is expected to shed light on the thorny neuroscientific puzzle of how our brain tells the difference between a part of our own body, and something else in the wider world. The work might also improve rehabilitation for patients who have experienced strokes and other medical problems by immersing them in a world that helps them to use their bodies to the full again. Source: The Guardian
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sita
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Post by sita on Jan 21, 2011 17:08:58 GMT -6
Computers are new to me I avoided them as I don't like the artificial light and strange smell they make. Like this evening, it is just past full moon so I should be enjoying the moon light that is coming in through my window, thats not happening as I am on the computer being entertained by your above topics. Those black holes you where discussing in vedic astrology they are called Rahu and Ketu, I am not saying that they are the only black holes but they are two that affect us on planet earth more than most. Portals that allow things in and out, using our bodies in Radha Krsna lila is what we are used to doing, its holistic, mind body and soul kind of thing. Virtual lila I am not convinced would be the same, so much of the engagement depends on the body functioning. We have a mantra in classical temple art we recite it in sanskrit but I will just do the English which goes: Where the hand goes the eyes follow, where the eyes go the mind follows, where the mind goes the mood develops and there arises the rasa. And also the fusion of mind body and soul depends to some extend on the atmospheric conditions such as sweet smells sounds and moonlight.
There was a very good point made about the black holes opening and closing,and even opening from different sides, I believe if we really want to enter Radha Krsna Lila and it is our time to go i.e. the portals open then we can go with the blessings of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, but we can not so easily come back, that is maybe the most difficult area to deal with especially if ones work is only half done and so much time and effort has been put into arriving at where we are. Doing work in this world requires to a large extent a frame of mind, which may not be afforded us if we put to much effort into pretending we are else where.
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Post by JD33 on Feb 2, 2011 13:45:47 GMT -6
Hi Sita - I would have to say that there should be no fear (or other like consideration) at all about entering into Radha-Krsna Lila and not being able to come back. I have witnessed a great Siddha go into and out of Lila many many times over the years, plus we have the stories of other Sadhus going into Lila and coming out, even if it is hours later. If we think about what we are doing - it is very very profound. We, through the Compassionate Grace of Diksa (Initiation) from the Blessed Gurudev, have the opportunity through sincere sadhana and seva, to attract Sri Krsna and Sri Radhika, enough to eventually get their Darshan (Holy sight and/or presence) repeatedly, and then later to enter into direct inter-action with Them. WOW! Radha-Krsna IS ORIGINAL SOURCE GOD...... completely distinct from any of the gods of this material substance realm...... wow! Thus there is no room for fear or any other consideration! ....... there is only room for enthusiasm and diligence. Much like we would not fear or otherwise be cautious partaking of Prasadam..... right? Yum!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 11:08:06 GMT -6
I'M NOT READY TO LEAVE YET
I HAVEN'T BEEN ASKED TO LEAVE YET With WILSON'S rkv the spin stops here .
LACK of seed exchange & bowing down to prevent sunburn . It's spelled correctly all through your transcendental vacumn an Grace
became part of the language . To suggest that i be able to step out of the plot and speak directly "Oh , satsvarupz' ? it's cold out side today . See how smarter [we are when we steal radiators].
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