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Post by Ekantin on Feb 10, 2010 17:25:29 GMT -6
I find this fascinating, Subrataji. It could become a good tool for training ourselves to assume our siddha-svarupas. I think we ought to explore it and try to create a virtual Vraja and Navadvipa in which we can practice our seva. I said something similar a while back after experiencing online gaming on my nephew's Playstation 3. The motions one goes through to register and enroll one's playing character, as well as the experience of playing itself, have great similarities to the mechanics of manasik-seva. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 10, 2010 22:22:43 GMT -6
Again good concerns. You have a rather dark view of your fellow human beings, Visakhadi. As Subrataji suggested, there would have to have been screening of the participants in the lila. It should not be open to anyone. Sajatiya is very important, not just in the sense of appreciating the same rasika moods, but also being on a similar wavelength and having similar goals. It would be like joining a secret society. We might even want to set some guidelines for those who are accepted into the group. Things like authentic initiation, regular mantra-smarana, a certain number of rounds completed each day, evidence of a serious attitude towards the tradition and its practices, etc. etc. There might also be an educational requirement like study of siddhanta and/or familiarity with the lilas and so forth before one is allowed to join the circle. It should probably be administered by a board of some sort which decides on new applicants and operational procedures and so forth. Once accepted the new members define their identities confidentially and the program assigns them occasional stints as R and K without anyone else's knowledge. Also they do not know who is who among the manjaris. It is hard to vist revenge or nurse a grudge under those circumstances.
But I think operational anonymity is still important. Within a circle of trusted participants who is doing what when should not be known to the participants, largely in order to keep siddha-deha and yatha-avasthita deha separate and to help the participants to get into the roles as well. If something goes wrong then the causes and culprits should be traceable, but only in such unusual cases.
In other words it would become a group sadhana, like meeting in a temple to watch arati or listen to a lecture. The difference is that it could be done from anywhere in the world.
I think having someone play R and K is important. In manasika seva it is all initiated by the meditator, at least in the beginning and probably for quite some time until the meditator become well accomplished. Then R and K answer the call and enter the mind of the practitioner or transport him or her into genuine lila. Manasik-seva is just practice lila. To leave R and K silent and motionless would constitute one kind of meditation, but the higher kind is svarasiki or spontaneous meditation. That is the kind of meditation sought after in lila-smarana.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 10, 2010 22:32:45 GMT -6
I find this fascinating, Subrataji. It could become a good tool for training ourselves to assume our siddha-svarupas. I think we ought to explore it and try to create a virtual Vraja and Navadvipa in which we can practice our seva. I said something similar a while back after experiencing online gaming on my nephew's Playstation 3. The motions one goes through to register and enroll one's playing character, as well as the experience of playing itself, have great similarities to the mechanics of manasik-seva. Imagine the experience if completed with gloves, helmets with video screens and speakers, and even suits to measure and transmit physical data into the "avatar." One could live one's life on the virtual plan without hardly ever taking off your gear to shower or rest. Is this the next evolutionary stage of mankind? I can see the plots of several science-fiction novels coming out of something like this. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2010 4:16:55 GMT -6
> You have a rather dark view of your fellow human beings, Visakhadi. Maybe I have read too many scifi novels in my college days.  You know what I think would be really amazing? A website starting with satellite images of Vrindavan, Nabadwip and Puri from Google earth, which allow you to click and zoom in to visit the streets and temples of Vrindavan, with photos of all the deities in all the temples. Thus one could do a realistic virtual parikrama and darshan while live recordings of kirtan play in the background. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 11, 2010 11:34:10 GMT -6
I've checked this out, Bisakhadi. For some reason, the area around Radhakund is restricted. One can't get very close to it. One can view Vrindaban. It is nice seeing the dhama from space. I was trying to pick out places but apart from the Krsna-Balaram Temple which is clearly marked (and Bhaktivedanta Marg) it is hard to recognize places from above. Seva Kunj is clearly marked. It would be great if they had a ground level images like they do in some places, but apparently that is not available for Vrindaban. I could not see Govardhan or Govinda kund either. Still, Mathura and Vrindaban were clearly visible. Some one should set up webcams there so we can watch the cows wander the streets.
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Post by gerard on Feb 11, 2010 18:19:21 GMT -6
I said something similar a while back after experiencing online gaming on my nephew's Playstation 3. The motions one goes through to register and enroll one's playing character, as well as the experience of playing itself, have great similarities to the mechanics of manasik-seva. Imagine the experience if completed with gloves, helmets with video screens and speakers, and even suits to measure and transmit physical data into the "avatar." One could live one's life on the virtual plan without hardly ever taking off your gear to shower or rest. Is this the next evolutionary stage of mankind? I can see the plots of several science-fiction novels coming out of something like this. Isn't meditation intented to take you inward, and wouldn't sitting in front of the screen make it external? Maybe even materialistic? |
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Post by Ekantin on Feb 11, 2010 18:53:34 GMT -6
Isn't meditation intented to take you inward, and wouldn't sitting in front of the screen make it external? Maybe even materialistic? The inward meditation can sometimes be facilitated or enhanced by outward things. There is a whole section of BRS dedicated to uddipanas. |
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Post by Ekantin on Feb 12, 2010 11:38:26 GMT -6
You know what I think would be really amazing? A website starting with satellite images of Vrindavan, Nabadwip and Puri from Google earth, which allow you to click and zoom in to visit the streets and temples of Vrindavan, with photos of all the deities in all the temples. Thus one could do a realistic virtual parikrama and darshan while live recordings of kirtan play in the background. I did see one such site some time ago and went on 'virtual parikrama' in Mayapur, Sri Rupa Gosvami's samadhi in Vrindavan, etc. But alas, I no longer have the URL! Ah, Google saves lives yet again. Here we go: 360Darshan.Com. Pick your panorama, then click and drag to see everything. (I like the kirtan that plays when looking at Sri Sanatan Gosvami's bhajan kutir.) |
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Post by gerard on Feb 12, 2010 18:02:55 GMT -6
Isn't meditation intented to take you inward, and wouldn't sitting in front of the screen make it external? Maybe even materialistic? The inward meditation can sometimes be facilitated or enhanced by outward things. There is a whole section of BRS dedicated to uddipanas. Yes, but does that include creating a maya world within a maya world? |
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 13, 2010 11:11:07 GMT -6
Imagine the experience if completed with gloves, helmets with video screens and speakers, and even suits to measure and transmit physical data into the "avatar." One could live one's life on the virtual plan without hardly ever taking off your gear to shower or rest. Is this the next evolutionary stage of mankind? I can see the plots of several science-fiction novels coming out of something like this. Isn't meditation intented to take you inward, and wouldn't sitting in front of the screen make it external? Maybe even materialistic? What do you mean by materialistic? This is precisely the dualistic view that is turning out to be problematic, maybe even detrimental to our cultivation of Krsna mind. The old distinction between matter and spirit was either mistaken or a temporary rouse to help living beings get beyond a certain stage of self-discovery. The clue is in the fact that according to CV we are all the energy or power of Krsna. The distinction between internal and external is arbitrary and ultimately superficial. The challenge for modern CV and other religious traditions is to overcome this language of duality that characterizes many of the scriptural and textual expressions of those traditions and translate them into a monistic terminology. This physics text that I am reading at present has an interesting way of expressing this. It suggests that what we think of as matter is really "light frozen by gravity." Now one might say that I am pushing monism too much and that this is a tradition of undifference AND difference. This may be so. But I think was have tended to think of thinks too much in terms of difference and not enough in terms of non-difference. Thus, I think that using computers and computer programs and gloves and what not are not materialistic at all, certainly not any more than offering flowers and water to images. If I were a foolish fanatic I would push the claim that computers were developed for just such a purpose. But, I am not. I find that whole way of looking at things repugnant and extraordinarily self-aggrandizing. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 13, 2010 11:13:44 GMT -6
The inward meditation can sometimes be facilitated or enhanced by outward things. There is a whole section of BRS dedicated to uddipanas. Yes, but does that include creating a maya world within a maya world? Huh? What do you mean by this? I am afraid I don't follow. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2010 13:09:52 GMT -6
What do you mean by materialistic? This is precisely the dualistic view that is turning out to be problematic, maybe even detrimental to our cultivation of Krsna mind. The old distinction between matter and spirit was either mistaken or a temporary rouse to help living beings get beyond a certain stage of self-discovery. The clue is in the fact that according to CV we are all the energy or power of Krsna. The distinction between internal and external is arbitrary and ultimately superficial. The challenge for modern CV and other religious traditions is to overcome this language of duality that characterizes many of the scriptural and textual expressions of those traditions and translate them into a monistic terminology. This physics text that I am reading at present has an interesting way of expressing this. It suggests that what we think of as matter is really "light frozen by gravity." Now one might say that I am pushing monism too much and that this is a tradition of undifference AND difference. This may be so. But I think was have tended to think of thinks too much in terms of difference and not enough in terms of non-difference.
Thus, I think that using computers and computer programs and gloves and what not are not materialistic at all, certainly not any more than offering flowers and water to images. If I were a foolish fanatic I would push the claim that computers were developed for just such a purpose. But, I am not. I find that whole way of looking at things repugnant and extraordinarily self-aggrandizing.
Exactly so Nitai Das Ji. You have hit the correct point. Even no other Gaudiya Acharyya think in that way.
That is why Krishnadas Kaviraj loudly proclaimed the opinion of Goswami's theology in cc
Dikshakaley Bhakta Kare Antmasamarpan
Sei Kale Krishna Tare Kare AtmaSama
Chidananda Dehe Tanre Charan Bhajay
So it is very clear whenever whatever materialistic object were offered to Krishna he makes that chita ananda maya i.e of His ( Krishna ) consciousness including this material body. So that becomes Aprakrita . That is why we called Prasad Krishna Conscious since it is offered to Krishna. So it is by his divine interference Matter transformed to consciousness. Now in order to understand that transformed object of consciousness one has to have certain detectors/receptor within himself , Thus sidhdhas or Kripa Prapta Devotee can understand that transformed consciousness easily, and thus their bliss in receiving any prasad/or object used by Krishna ( like prsadi Garments etc. ) give them immense pleasure which we can not understand.
Likewise any simulation of divine world once offered to Govinda , it will be injected with Govinda Conciousness and would be real.
Yes you were correct in our Tradition we do not try to understand the Aved Part of Relationship that much the way we try the Bhed. Though the Goswami's as per Sriman Mahaprabhu's wish emphasized the Abhed part much more than later achryya.
I was reading an excellent text by Sundarananda Vidyavinode where he was showing the theological deviation made by Sri Baldeva Bidyabhushan from the original Goswami theology, to the extent embracing wholeheartedly Madhdhachary's Dwita Philosophy.
It would be an interesting discussion, perhaps Sri Nitai das ji would like to share his important insight on that deviation in another new thread.
Though I was going through Sri Baldeva Gita Commentry , it was life enchanting.., the depth and scholarship is beyond imagination.
Jay Nitai
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Post by JD33 on Feb 13, 2010 13:24:40 GMT -6
Interesting stuff here..... I went online to: secondlife.com/whatis/?lang=en-US and saw the potiential. Very interesting. This could be a great vehicle to absorb one's mind and thoughts on Radha-Krsna and the Holy Dham...... and conceivably do-able. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2010 3:48:56 GMT -6
I just had to sign up for Second Life to see what it's all about. The viewer is downloading ever so slowly, then I'm off to "Help Island." So, what would it take to get a community set up, and who has the time to do it?
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Post by gerard on Feb 14, 2010 9:48:51 GMT -6
Isn't meditation intented to take you inward, and wouldn't sitting in front of the screen make it external? Maybe even materialistic? What do you mean by materialistic? This is precisely the dualistic view that is turning out to be problematic, maybe even detrimental to our cultivation of Krsna mind. The old distinction between matter and spirit was either mistaken or a temporary rouse to help living beings get beyond a certain stage of self-discovery. The clue is in the fact that according to CV we are all the energy or power of Krsna. The distinction between internal and external is arbitrary and ultimately superficial. The challenge for modern CV and other religious traditions is to overcome this language of duality that characterizes many of the scriptural and textual expressions of those traditions and translate them into a monistic terminology. This physics text that I am reading at present has an interesting way of expressing this. It suggests that what we think of as matter is really "light frozen by gravity." Now one might say that I am pushing monism too much and that this is a tradition of undifference AND difference. This may be so. But I think was have tended to think of thinks too much in terms of difference and not enough in terms of non-difference. Thus, I think that using computers and computer programs and gloves and what not are not materialistic at all, certainly not any more than offering flowers and water to images. If I were a foolish fanatic I would push the claim that computers were developed for just such a purpose. But, I am not. I find that whole way of looking at things repugnant and extraordinarily self-aggrandizing. Some thoughts on the above I think that materialism is not excluded from a monistic worldview. I believe in one continuum that has divinity on one end and fossilized consciousness, stone or matter on the other. If you concentrate too much on the stone end you could be a materialist. Computers belong to that end of the spectrum. But then, the very basis of Hinduism is dualistic from the Rigvedic sat/asat to the Samkhya purusha/prakriti dichotomy. Besides how is bhakti even possible without the distinction between object and subject? I agree with your "the distinction between internal and external is arbitrary and ultimately superficial" but in how far is that just a theoretical statement. What is your experimental basis for saying this? As long as it just quoting books you FIRST have to get very well established in a meditation that goes inward, then you will experience why some people talk that way and then you wouldn't be throwing this kind of sentences around. The ISKCON way of "meditating" is almost always directed outward, toward the murti's, that seems to be your only expertise, please first learn real meditation. You just quoted "light frozen by gravity", sounds nice, so Vivekenanda, by do you really know what light is, or tachyons, or gravity; even quantum physicist hardly understand what they are saying. You sound like a New Age girl who - finally in 1985 - discovers Fritjof Capra. When you're so interested in using computers you could get, with Ekantin the neuro-specialist and also a self-confessed atheist (so he doesn't need God's grace either in having mystical experiences) a God-helmet and finally get some sort of mystical experience: www.shaktitechnology.com/shiva/God Helmet/index.htm and I would reserve the word "self-aggrandizing" for advaitins who think they are God. |
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