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Post by kingcobra on Sept 16, 2007 12:22:45 GMT -6
Since Tapati has been studying and practicing the Wiccan religion for many years, I thought she might like to share with us some of her experiences within that tradition.
I have a lot of questions about it. I think Satanism, which I believe has some sort of relationship with Wiccan has been very much misunderstood. Most people think of it as devil worship and a lot of sacrificing of babies, but that is just a bunch of urgan legends based on what I know so far.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2007 16:23:59 GMT -6
Since Tapati has been studying and practicing the Wiccan religion for many years, I thought she might like to share with us some of her experiences within that tradition. I have a lot of questions about it. I think Satanism, which I believe has some sort of relationship with Wiccan has been very much misunderstood. Most people think of it as devil worship and a lot of sacrificing of babies, but that is just a bunch of urgan legends based on what I know so far. In all fairness to Wiccans I don't know if I can claim any longer to be genuinely Wiccan, though I am a practicing witch. I deviate too much from the traditional brand of Wicca or even the Dianic to really qualify. I'm pretty eclectic. As for Satanism, my understanding is that there is more than one type, the Anton LeVey variety which is really atheism dressed up as a big "F**k you" to the Establishment and organized religion, and a theistic type that doesn't see Satan as The Devil but as a god in his own right and don't see themselves as evil or supporting evil in any way. There may be others that are more underground that I don't hear about. Paganism is a big tent and there are even groups that try to embrace Hinduism or Buddhism under that umbrella as recons (reconstructionists). There are also reconstructionists of other paths, such as Greek, Celtic and so on. Then there are the Asatru who call themselves heathens rather than pagans and worship the Norse gods. I often joke that I should just found my own church: The First Church of the Uppity Woman.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2007 16:26:23 GMT -6
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Post by subaldas on Sept 16, 2007 17:08:40 GMT -6
In an on-line religious preference test, I was 99% compatible in my views with Neo-pagans, yet I know little about them. I can see a correspondance between the Lord and Lady and Radha Krishna. I was a teacher at a couple of pagan festivals in Michigan, so yes, they are eclectic. As I struggle to re-imagine Radha Krishna worship for the West, I look for models to follow, and if there is already something there that works, why reinvent the wheel. So, with a dual background in these two faiths, do you see them as a good fit, or as a model for a Western Radha Krishna? Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2007 17:21:24 GMT -6
In an on-line religious preference test, I was 99% compatible in my views with Neo-pagans, yet I know little about them. I can see a correspondance between the Lord and Lady and Radha Krishna. I was a teacher at a couple of pagan festivals in Michigan, so yes, they are eclectic. As I struggle to re-imagine Radha Krishna worship for the West, I look for models to follow, and if there is already something there that works, why reinvent the wheel. So, with a dual background in these two faiths, do you see them as a good fit, or as a model for a Western Radha Krishna? Thanks. There are already pagans talking about this and the need for clergy: indopaganproject.tripod.com/I think they are right up your alley!
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Post by kingcobra on Sept 17, 2007 6:11:59 GMT -6
There was a lot of cross pollination between the pagan religions of Europe and Christianity as the new religion took hold on that continent. One of the most obvious events was the moving of the birth date of Christ to late December, which apparently was done to compete with the pagan observance of winter solstice festivals, which still are very much alive and well in the Baltic republics, and who knows where else.
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Post by subaldas on Sept 17, 2007 10:42:56 GMT -6
Thanks for the link Tapati. I just did some reading there. It is interesting in that they seem to be working in a similar direction as me. However, it's scarey because it seems like another organized religion with its belief systems and politics. I feel a bit old to learn a new religion, but I'm sure I'll go back to learn more and check out their yahoo group. I am a syncretist as are the neo-pagans, and I will take what pearls of wisdom I can garner from them.
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Post by kingcobra on Sept 17, 2007 11:33:09 GMT -6
The term cleric scared me a little bit. I mentally associate that term with the Islamic jihad proponents.
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Post by chandan on Sept 18, 2007 13:57:32 GMT -6
I was hoping to see more on this topic, here is information on the history of Wicca that may be of interest.
The history of Wicca
by Frater L.A.
Ah Wicca, The old ways, the religion of the ancestors. Sounds enticing, except it seems to be a fraudulent claim. Let me explain. Claims about the origins of Wicca may be some of the most ridiculous, if not most widely spread, misconceptions floating around in spiritual circles. Gerald Gardner presented his religion to the world in 1954 claiming that it was the modern continuation of ancient Druid and Celtic spirituality that had existed in secret through to this day.
One of the most common arguments put forth is that the modern word "witch" is a derivative of the older English "Wicca." This may be true, but the fact that the word Wicca (the name Gardner chose for his new religion) is ancient, does not necessitate that the modern movement calling itself Wicca is ancient as well, or even has anything to do with the early Anglo witch myths, from which the word Wicca is derived. Gerald Gardner didn't know any more about pre-Roman Druid and Celtic religion than the anthropologists of his time, which is not very much at all.
In common modern usage, the word Wicca has come (almost exclusively) to denote practitioners of the religious system invented by Gerald Gardner, scarcely 60 years old. This is a modern movement, and though Gardner himself was want to characterize his system as a continuance of the ways, it is clear to anyone who has studied British Freemasonry, Theosophy, The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and Crowley's Thelema, that what Gardner had done was create an oversimplified amalgamation of several of the 18th century Western Esoteric Traditions.
Elements from all of the above traditions found their way blatantly and explicitly into Gardeners system from; "As above, So below, " from the Emerald Tablet of Hermes, to the three initiation ceremonies from Craft Masonry (yes, Masonry calls itself "the craft" and did so for hundreds of years before Gardner invented Wicca). The sexual content of the so-called Great Rite is taken directly from a group of sex magicians from Germany (predating Wicca by a century or so) called the Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.), from which Gardner received a charter to operate a temple just weeks before he released his first material on Wicca. Coincidence? Think again.
Wicca amounts to a simplified earth-nature version of the earlier Hermetic traditions like; O.T.O., Golden Dawn, and Masonry. Gardener was in close correspondence with Aleister Crowley of the Golden Dawn, A.A. and O.T.O. this may have had a major influence on his own spiritual path and the creation of Wicca. In fact, so involved was Gardner in the O.T.O. that the executor of Crowley's will, Lady Frieda Harris, thought that Gardner should have been Crowley's rightful successor to the head of the O.T.O. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frieda_Harris).
Gardner was himself a member of a number of Western Hermetic Magickal societies before he "revived" ancient witchcraft. He was a member of the Corona Fellowship of Rosicrucians, Co-Masonry, and the O.T.O. Gardener's work, especially his BAM and BOS, were cheap plagiarizations of real occult works including Crowley's Magick Book 4, and older Solomonic Grimiores.
Concepts like; casting a magical circle, invocation, evocation, wearing robes, using tools like the wand, chalice, knife, and pentacle, etc. are all blatantly plagiarized from groups like the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn founded in the late 1800's and derived from earlier western mystical sources. These ideas bare no resemblance to ancient Celtic Druid traditions, but are exact copies of Golden Dawn, Masonic and O.T.O. teachings. In short, Gardner made a kindergarten for occultists.
Also consider the similarity of Aleister Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, " written years earlier in 1904, to Gardner's "An it harm none, so as ye will." The entire thing is a complete knock-off of real Hermetic Occult traditions, just dumbed down and made fairy-fluffy for those who wish to feel pixie-magical, while at the same time having nothing whatsoever to do with the reals Ars Magica.
All of this would lead any rational person to conclude that Gardenarian Wicca is little more than a cheap forgery of real occult tradition. Want to learn about real ancient traditions, with real antiquity? (Egyptian, Kabbalistic, Hermetic, Alchemical) Want to learn real secrets of the occult (hidden Lat.)? (Esoteric, i.e. inner) Want to evolve, grow, mature and develop? (climb the mountain of initiation) Try something that was not invented in the last century by a crackpot con-artist trying to live off of the ideas of others
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2007 14:30:11 GMT -6
This is widely known in pagan circles these days. The vast majority of Wiccans wouldn't argue with it except for a few newbies who haven't researched much yet. I personally have no problem with the idea that we are creating our own religion. All the religions practiced today were created sometime from scratch.
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Post by chandan on Sept 18, 2007 14:56:24 GMT -6
Nothing is wrong with starting a new religion but it seems Gerald Gardner made some outlandish claims and even plagiarized things.
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Post by chandan on Sept 18, 2007 15:42:24 GMT -6
I saw that right after I posted the History of Wicca I was down by one Karma point, I was not attacking anyone only thought we were having an objective thread on paganism.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2007 19:56:47 GMT -6
Nothing is wrong with starting a new religion but it seems Gerald Gardner made some outlandish claims and even plagiarized things. Some people say so, and others who have access to the secret writings available to that tradition say otherwise. For me it's a moot point since I've never been a Gardnerian.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2007 19:58:30 GMT -6
I saw that right after I posted the History of Wicca I was down by one Karma point, I was not attacking anyone only thought we were having an objective thread on paganism. That's the way of karma, mysterious. My own karma went down when I dared to ask some questions about domestic violence and discuss the matter in the hopes that some future women would not suffer. But really, karma points are so high school, don't you think?
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Post by kingcobra on Sept 18, 2007 20:19:02 GMT -6
I just kicked you back up a notch, Tapati. I think we know who has being doing most of the smiting of late: That fake Hawaiin with the fake blue suede flip flops and the out of tune ukelele! ;D
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