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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 23, 2023 17:21:08 GMT -6
*** This is a good discussion that started out via email, prompted by Radhapada-ji. I will post each email as a separate post, and if the authors would like to continue the discussion here, I encourage them to do so. I will add any of my own comments in via brackets '[' and ']' for context where needed. ***
Greetings to all,
Jaya Radhe! Dandavats to all.
I have questions and doubts:
Last Sunday there was mention [by Nityananda das] of a popular story told of Lord Jagannath, Sri Baladeva and Sri Subhadra Murtis in Nilachala Dhama. According to the story, their characteristic Murti forms are the result of manifestations of ecstasy due to hearing the Vraja stories from Sri Rohini to the Queens during the Dwaraka Lila.
I have only heard this story over the years from IGM sources. I never heard it in traditional Caitanya Vaisnava readings, though that is not to say much either as my readings are limited. In looking through the internet, I found that this story is traced to a poem (?) book (?), Mahabhava Prakash from an Odiya poet by the name of Kanai Khuntia. I did not find this book in my internet searches. There is a Kanai Kutiya (Kānāi Khuṭiyā) mentioned in Caitanya Caritamrita wherein Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami describes Sri Caitanya and his associates playing the Nandotsava Lila. But, is it the same Kanai Khuntia who is said to have written the poem/story?
Since this poem/story is used in IGM circles, I am suspicious that the Mahabhava Prakash is not an authentic book. If it is, why is not available? Or if authentic, where are the other parts of it? Much like the Samskara Dipika which is said to be by Sri Gopal Bhatta Goswami, he never wrote it. However, Samskara Dipika is used by IGM and is most likely, an in-house authorship/publication of theirs.
If it is a story, or poem, written by the Odiya associate of Sri Caitanya, Kanai Kutiya, then is it the bhava of the devotee and unique to him, that he envisions the Jagannath Puri Murtis in that way? Or, is the story a popular local lore of Odhisha?
Welcoming any comments to this.
Radhe Radhe,
Y.s.
Radhapada Das
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 23, 2023 17:22:55 GMT -6
Reply from Acyutananda das: I heard it only from IGM.
Reply from Nityananda das (me): Whelp, my apologies for remembering an IGM story. I wonder what mental faculties we'd have left about Bhakti (quasi-related Bhakti) topics if every microscopic bit of IGM was scoured from our brains?
Lots of mahamantra tunes come from IGM/Aindra too. We probably shouldn't be singing those either unless they can be verified as sung by traditional Vaishnavas. Hearing IGM tunes can bring up IGM trauma. I never thought of that until now. Oh well. What to do?
I'll also see if I can find a bona fide reference for the Jagannath story. I guess we should all be very careful about any stories or lilas we remember and should make sure we have bonafide references to back up the stories. It's good practice actually.
Iti sevak,
Nityananda das
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 23, 2023 17:26:09 GMT -6
Nityananda dasa: Still thinking about some other angles on this too. Anyone else in favor of taking this topic to the Chaitanya Symposium? It would be a great place for this discussion. 🙏🏻
Radhapada dasa: It is here already [in the email discussion]. Just like to get to the source, the book/poem author exists, or not?
Acyutananda das: The story is not even in Ishkon only Gaudiya Math and only even among the Narayan swami's followers.
Nityananda dasa: Cool. I'll start a related post over there. It brings up a good, general point aside from the obvious specific one.
Radhapada dasa: First time I heard it was from the late Bhakti Caru Swami, in Gita Nagari, Pennsylvania around 1989 or so, in one of their community's Ratha Yatra procession festivals.
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 23, 2023 17:27:00 GMT -6
Nitai das: Greetings All,
Jaya Radhe!
In my view it is a mistake to assume that if something is heard from IGM sources, it is automatically false or apasiddhanta, especially if the argument is completed with "otherwise we would have heard about it from traditional sources." I cannot properly convey to you how many authentic texts have never been published and instead are sitting in manuscript collections in Orissa or Bengal or Bangladesh. This is especially true of the Orissa side of our tradition. Most of us know next to nothing about the followers of Mahaprabhu who wrote in Odiya over the centuries following his departure. It is a gaping hole in our knowledge and understanding. We have mostly been influenced by Bengalis who naturally forefront Bengalis. Even Haridas Das in his Sri Sri Gaudiya Vaisnava Sahitya only devotes two and a third pages to Odiya Vaisnava writers. He devotes almost three pages to women writers. To assume on the basis of a Google search that there never was a Mahabhava Prakasa and that it is a fabrication of the evil IGM is foolish. There are whole aspects of our tradition that we know next to nothing about. I encourage those of you who are inclined to scholarship to take up some of these studies. Until thien let us not jump to conclusions about what is authentic and what is not. This is part of what makes our transition out of IGM so difficult and frustrating. Some of what we were taught is true and some of it false. It is not always easy to distinguish between the two. It takes a long time to cure ourselves from the IGM disinformation network. I have been struggling with it for fifty years and I still have a long way to go.
Jaya Radhe!
best wishes,
Nitaidas
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 23, 2023 17:28:28 GMT -6
Radhapada dasa: Nitai Ji,
Thank you for such a great and enlightening response!! 🙏
Rādhe Rādhe!
Acyutananda das: I think some of those Oriya texts are in Dasarath suta's van.
Nityananda das: I was able to get some direct sections of this book under discussion. I'll repost all this in the symposium and add the additional content there.
Thanks Nitai Dada-ji for clarifying and providing guidance on this issue. I had a feeling I wasn't wrong to share this story on the Sunday call, but discussion definitely helps to get to the various cores and truth of things, ideas, and people too! Many thanks to all for the discussion and please make your way to the symposium to discuss further. I'll post in the CV whatsapp chat when I get the discussion moved over there. Radhapada-ji, I'll let you know also. 🙏🏻
Jai Sri Radhe!
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 23, 2023 17:29:08 GMT -6
Radhapada dasa: Actually, Acyutananda Das Ji has referenced this story several times in our Zoom meetings, so he is also correct in citing it. On another topic, he one time had me ask a question to Prabhupada Nityagopal Goswami for confirmation and Prabhupada confirmed what Acyutananda Das has previously heard was correct. Questions, clearing doubts, and dialogue is part of bhakti bhajan.
Acyutananda das: I will ask Mukunda das The Rohini Vraja Katha may be in Gopal Champu
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 23, 2023 17:30:20 GMT -6
Nityananda das [in reply to Radhapada dasa]: Actually, it is interesting that this point of Acyutananda Dada bringing up this story several times is only being mentioned now. (Not sure what that has to do with anything to be honest).
Related to consulting Goswamis, and let me preface this by saying I offer them all my dandavat pranam, however consulting them and getting confirmation from them doesn't necessarily provide or establish a legitimate pramana or evidence. Best and topmost pramana is shastra. And being a traditional 'goswami' doesn't mean one is automatically learned, intelligent, trained/educated, or correct in relation to scripture. That needs to be verified.
Nitai Dada and I were discussing a post from Mahanidhi Madan Gopal Babaji's webpage wherein he quotes a passage from Bhakti Sandarbha about rejecting one's guru. Sadly this quotation on his page is not translated correctly. Not only that, but MMG Babaji consulted his sources (which I'm sure would include Vrindavan Goswamis and a Radhakund babaji or two) at the time who 'verified' the incorrect version of this quote from Bhakti Sandarbha. So again, the best verification is shastra. Otherwise we're just going by what a sadhu, Vaishnava, or Goswami said and hopefully they're correct but it won't be as good of a pramana because anyone can disagree with a person but it's a bit harder to disagree with scripture.
This almost has an IGM flavor to it along the lines of citing a person who is supposed to be an authority. The authority of a person is relative. The authority of shastra is not. And if there is disagreement about what shastra says, then a person who can very clearly read and interpret/translate shastra is needed. Thanks so Sri Radha that Nitai Dada is here to help us!
Srila Narottama dasa Thakura gives is three direct pramanas, guru, sadhu, and shastra. But of the three, shastra is preeminent.
And back to the point by MMG Babaji Maharaja, I plan to respectfully suggest this correction to his article but not sure what the result of that will be. I'll also post about that (& the results) on the symposium.
The reason I'm cheerleading about the symposium is that it is an online sadhu sanga that can benefit many more people than the temporary and short term reaches of an email chain.
I hope this is of some use to everyone. 🙏🏻
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Mar 23, 2023 17:31:40 GMT -6
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