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Post by Ldd on Apr 26, 2021 10:30:12 GMT -6
I heard the Jiva Goswami-pad believed that Krishna married the gopis in the end and spent his life arguing against the parakiya -- which his uncles wrote about.. ie the relation did not end in separation or viraha. There is a book Sadhana Dipika by Radha Krishna Goswami who took over the Gaudiya leadership after sri Jiva. Radha Krishna Goswami supplies quotes to prove that it was not so. (the viraha is all over the Chaitanya Chaitarimrta as well) I have the Sadhana Dipika and would love to get it translated and put it out there.
Did sri Jiva believe in the viraha? If any resident pandit knows, please share.
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 26, 2021 17:43:48 GMT -6
I heard the Jiva Goswami-pad believed that Krishna married the gopis in the end and spent his life arguing against the parakiya -- which his uncles wrote about.. ie the relation did not end in separation or viraha. There is a book Sadhana Dipika by Radha Krishna Goswami who took over the Gaudiya leadership after sri Jiva. Radha Krishna Goswami supplies quotes to prove that it was not so. (the viraha is all over the Chaitanya Chaitarimrta as well) I have the Sadhana Dipika and would love to get it translated and put it out there. Did sri Jiva believe in the viraha? If any resident pandit knows, please share. There is not any connection between viraha and the svakiya/parakiya question. I don't know why you think there is. Viraha is the counterpart of sambhoga and can be part of svakiya relationships as well as parakiya relationships. I think you have some wires crossed in your head, dear madam. There has been a debate for centuries over the svakiya/parakiya question and yes Sri Jiva argues for svakiya and Sri Rupa appears to support the parakiya side in his Ujjvala-nilamani. Visvanatha Cakravartin in his commentary on the Un argues against Sri Jiva in favor of parakiya vada. There have been periodic councils of followers of CV to debate this question and generally the parakiya-vadins have won. I think it is a tempest in a teapot. When R and K are here in the phenomenal world they are (or think they are) parakiya and when they are in Goloka they are svakiya. I think all parties agree on that. |
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Post by Ldd on Apr 26, 2021 18:27:12 GMT -6
sambhog = direct contact vipralambha = the state of separation (these are the two kinds of lover relationship ) viraha = the anguish of separation. parakiya = forbidden (others wives) the strongest Married love is weaker = Viraha is related to vipralambha, not sambhog.. Does it sound better? our bhav is viraha and parakiya. Not a married Krishna  |
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Post by madanmohandas on Apr 27, 2021 10:55:26 GMT -6
Probably one or the other or both, according to the aspirant's desire, are accommodated. But are these arbitrary statements or is there some textural authority? The Bhagavat seems to suggest some sort of marriage, but Krishna's subsequent return to Gokula after the slaying of Dantavakra and his marriage with the cowherd damsels is not found in the Bhagavat, but is derived from other Puranas. Drawing on that authority Jiva has composed Gopala Champu, seemingly to substantiate the arguments he adduces elsewhere. But what do I know? hehehe
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Post by Nitaidas on Apr 27, 2021 12:07:49 GMT -6
sambhog = direct contact vipralambha = the state of separation (these are the two kinds of lover relationship ) viraha = the anguish of separation. parakiya = forbidden (others wives) the strongest Married love is weaker = Viraha is related to vipralambha, not sambhog.. Does it sound better? our bhav is viraha and parakiya. Not a married Krishna Thanks for the clarification, Lalitadasi. Only a little comment: viraha and vipralambha are the same thing, just two different names. These feelings of separation can apply to both those in parakiya relations and those who are married (svakiya). Tons of lovely Sanskrit verses have been written about wives who feel viraha for their husbands who have traveled far away on business. On the other hand the natural state of the parakiya lover is that he or she does not have easy access to the beloved. They thus experience viraha when they have to hide their "forbidden love" can't be with their lover. They must sneak out to the forests, risking their reputations and standing in their society, in order to be with the person whom they love. Their love is driven by passion while the love between married couples is more often one of duty. It is rather like the difference between vaidhi and raganuga bhakti. The contention of our tradition is that passionate love is better than dutiful love. The former is what R and K came to experience and to model for all us dissociated, and forgetful jivas. These are all things you know, I am sure. I am writing to clarify my own thinking on the matter. I am reminded of that verse that Sri Mahaprabhu recited at the Rathayatra on viewing Jagannatha: yah kaumAraharaH .. That is a wife feeling nostalgic for her first passionate meeting with the man who became her husband. She misses that passionate encounter even though she is still married to him. It suggests that that passion was the peak of srngAra and has become less present in her marriage. This is the same parakiya over svakiya sentiment, I think. |
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Post by Ldd on Apr 27, 2021 13:53:46 GMT -6
Very good I like your clarification. We never realize there is a science behind love -- only in Krishna leela we can discover andd study it -- I was reading the 64 arts which Radha and Krishna were expert in and thought it would be so nice if we knew and practiced (the arts are recommended in books like the kama-sutra by the way) Im not telling people to read it, ok. The arts are music, singing, painting, making diagrams in the body, poetry, singing verses, cooking.. so nice. I find it's important to know the details of krishna's rasa - what is to be expected. (He is a Kamadeva too, the king of it) The manjaris knew the arts and so should devotees I'm happy to see we have artists and poets on this site. I would like to sing the Chaupai of the Krishna leela, but I need to get a proper tune. If I get 10 sylable lines in english it would be ideal - trying to come up with something. |
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Post by Ldd on Apr 27, 2021 15:10:02 GMT -6
1. Geet vidya: art of singing.
2. Vadya vidya: art of playing on musical instruments.
3. Nritya vidya: art of dancing.
4. Natya vidya: art of theatricals.
5. Alekhya vidya: art of painting.
6. Viseshakacchedya vidya: art of painting the face and body with color
7. Tandulakusumabalivikara: art of preparing offerings from rice and flowers.
8. Pushpastarana: art of making a covering of flowers for a bed.
9. Dasanavasanangaraga: art of applying preparations for cleansing the teeth, cloths and painting the body.
10. Manibhumikakarma: art of making the groundwork of jewels.
11. Aayyaracana: art of covering the bed.
12. Udakavadya: art of playing on music in water.
13. Udakaghata: art of splashing with water.
14. Citrayoga: art of practically applying an admixture of colors.
15. Malyagrathanavikalpa: art of designing a preparation of wreaths.
16. Sekharapidayojana: art of practically setting the coronet on the head.
17. Nepathyayoga: art of practically dressing in the tiring room.
18. Karnapatrabhanga: art of decorating the tragus of the ear.
19. Sugandhayukti: art of practical application of aromatics.
20. Bhushanayojana: art of applying or setting ornaments.
21. Aindrajala: art of juggling.
22. Kaucumara: a kind of art.
23. Hastalaghava: art of sleight of hand.
24. Citrasakapupabhakshyavikarakriya: art of preparing varieties of delicious food.
25. Panakarasaragasavayojana: art of practically preparing palatable drinks and tinging draughts with red color.
26. Sucivayakarma: art of needleworks and weaving.
27. Sutrakrida: art of playing with thread.
28. Vinadamurakavadya: art of playing on lute and small drum.
29. Prahelika: art of making and solving riddles.
30. Durvacakayoga: art of practicing language difficult to be answered by others.
31. Pustakavacana: art of reciting books.
32. Natikakhyayikadarsana: art of enacting short plays and anecdotes.
33. Kavyasamasyapurana: art of solving enigmatic verses.
34. Pattikavetrabanavikalpa: art of designing preparation of shield, cane and arrows.
35. Tarkukarma: art of spinning by spindle.
36. Takshana: art of carpentry.
37. Vastuvidya: art of engineering.
38. Raupyaratnapariksha: art of testing silver and jewels.
39. Dhatuvada: art of metallurgy.
40. Maniraga jnana: art of tinging jewels.
41. Akara jnana: art of mineralogy.
42. Vrikshayurvedayoga: art of practicing medicine or medical treatment, by herbs.
43. Meshakukkutalavakayuddhavidhi: art of knowing the mode of fighting of lambs, cocks and birds.
44. Sukasarikapralapana: art of maintaining or knowing conversation between male and
female cockatoos.
45. Utsadana: art of healing or cleaning a person with perfumes.
46. Kesamarjanakausala: art of combing hair.
47. Aksharamushtikakathana: art of talking with fingers.
48. Dharanamatrika: art of the use of amulets.
49. Desabhashajnana: art of knowing provincial dialects.
50. Nirmitijnana: art of knowing prediction by heavenly voice.
51. Yantramatrika: art of mechanics.
52. Mlecchitakutarkavikalpa: art of fabricating barbarous or foreign sophistry.
53. Samvacya: art of conversation.
54. Manasi kavyakriya: art of composing verse
55. Kriyavikalpa: art of designing a literary work or a medical remedy.
56. Chalitakayoga: art of practicing as a builder of shrines called after him.
57. Abhidhanakoshacchandojnana: art of the use of lexicography and meters.
58. Vastragopana: art of concealment of cloths.
58. Vastragopana: art of concealment of cloths.
59. Dyutavisesha: art of knowing specific gambling.
60. Akarshakrida: art of playing with dice or magnet.
61. Balakakridanaka: art of using children’s toys.
62. Vainayiki vidya: art of enforcing discipline.
63. Vaijayiki vidya: art of gaining victory.
64. Vaitaliki vidya: art of awakening master with music at dawn.
YOU COULD ALWAYS USE THE ARTS TO DO SOMETHING NICE FOR kRISHNA - KEEP THE MIND BUSY TOO.
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Post by JD33 on May 24, 2021 15:14:08 GMT -6
question withdrawn
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Post by Ldd on May 26, 2021 7:06:00 GMT -6
It happened to me for long periods. accompanied by very deep pain and separation. But I read that anyone who sheds tears for Krishna will attain him. I know it has gotten a bad name due to sahajiya reputation.. but there are also genuine experiences.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jun 7, 2021 9:19:27 GMT -6
We had an interesting discussion about viraha in response to a question raised in the CV reading group yesterday. One of the members asked if there was a way to practice or cultivate viraha for Krsna and another member asked how it is that that member doesn't already feel viraha for Krsna? It did not occur to me until 2:00 in the morning when I was falling asleep that in order to feel viraha one already has to feel love for the person one feels viraha for. So when one has love for someone then one can feel viraha for that person when he or she is away or even he or she is near but soon will be away. Thus, the way to cultivate viraha is to cultivate or fall into love for someone. Viraha comes with love. It is not a goal in itself. One who claims to feel viraha is telling us that he or she already has love for that person.
But how do you come to love someone you have never seen or met? In Krsna's case is seeing him enough? In seeing Krsna we would presumably see the most beautiful person we have ever seen. But is beauty enough of a reason to love someone. Loving someone because they are beautiful seems like a shallow reason for loving someone. There are plenty of beautiful people around who are simply not people one can love. The body may be beautiful, but the heart ugly. To love someone one has to know someone deeper than that. I think I could love the ugliest person in the world if I got to know that person and discovered that they possessed an inner goodness and sweetness.
One might argue that we come to love Krsna by reading about him in the Gita or the Bhagavata. But to speak truthfully the pictures presented there of Krsna and his different forms are not very attractive: a thousand-headed monster with mouths full of gnashing teeth chewing up warriors by the thousands, a fellow who when criticized whips out his discus and chops off a head, a fellow whose response to the pleas of the gopis who miss him dearly is a philosophical "But I am everywhere in the warp and woof around you."
The image of Krsna we are encountering in Rupa's Uddhava-sandesa, which we are reading now, is much more attractive. We find him pacing around on the roof of his palace in Mathura feeling intense viraha for the gopis and the other residents of the Vraja village he grew up in. Still, instead of going there himself he sends his friend Uddhava with a message. This even though he promised Nanda and the other gopas that he would return to Vraja.
The thing is we can't really feel viraha for Krsna until we have love for him and Rupa describes how that love in the form of suddha-sattva bhakti, a vrtti of the hladini-sakti, descends into our hearts (if we are fortunate) by the grace of a bhakta or of Krsna himself. It then blends into our mental landscape and fills us with the pleasure of loving Krsna (including in the form of viraha) and makes us, at the same time, a source of pleasure for Krsna which draws him to us.
The upshot is the only way forward is preparing our hearts to receive this particle of the hladini-sakti which is a small piece of Sri Radhika herself connecting us with her and through her with Krsna.
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Post by service to Radha's feet on Jun 8, 2021 20:55:00 GMT -6
Dr. Nitai ji, well said!! Below is Sri Narada's experience in the First Book of the Bhagavata on attaining love and separation during his previous birth as the son of maidservant. (Bhag. 1.6.15-23) tasmin nirmanuje ’raṇye
pippalopastha āśritaḥ
ātmanātmānam ātmasthaṁ
yathā-śrutam acintayam In that uninhabited forest, I sat down at the feet of a sacred fig tree and meditated with a controlled mind on the Lord residing in my heart, as I have heard of Him (from my teachers). dhyāyataś caraṇāmbhojaṁ
bhāva-nirjita-cetasā
autkaṇṭhyāśru-kalākṣasya
hṛdy āsīn me śanair hariḥ
As I meditated on His lotus-feet with a mind overpowered by love, tears rushed to my eyes as a result of eagerness to see Sri Hari, who gradually (visibly) appeared in my heart. premātibhara-nirbhinna-
pulakāṅgo ’tinirvṛtaḥ
ānanda-samplave līno
nāpaśyam ubhayaṁ mune The hair of my body stood on end due to an outburst of love, my heart experienced a thrill of ecstatic bliss. Immersed in a flood of intense joy, O sage, I lost consciousness of both myself and the object of my perception (Sri Hari). rūpaṁ bhagavato yat tan
manaḥ-kāntaṁ śucāpaham
apaśyan sahasottasthe
vaiklavyād durmanā iva As I lost the view of that indescribable form of the Lord which was enrapturing to the heart and dispelled all grief, I felt disturbed and rose up on my feet like one troubled at heart. didṛkṣus tad ahaṁ bhūyaḥ
praṇidhāya mano hṛdi
vīkṣamāṇo ’pi nāpaśyam
avitṛpta ivāturaḥ Longing to see it once more, I fixed my mind on my heart and looked for it, but could not see it. Now I felt miserable as one whose desires had not been fully satisfied. evaṁ yatantaṁ vijane
mām āhāgocaro girām
gambhīra-ślakṣṇayā vācā
śucaḥ praśamayann iva While struggling in that lonely forest, the Lord, who is beyond words spoke in a sublime yet soft words, as if to soothe my grief: hantāsmiñ janmani bhavān
mā māṁ draṣṭum ihārhati
avipakva-kaṣāyāṇāṁ
durdarśo ’haṁ kuyoginām Ah! In this birth you are unfit to see Me for I am difficult to perceive for those who have not attained perfection in Yoga (devotion) and the impurities of whose heart have not yet been wholly burnt. sakṛd yad darśitaṁ rūpam
etat kāmāya te ’nagha
mat-kāmaḥ śanakaiḥ sādhu
sarvān muñcati hṛc-chayān It was only to arouse in you a burning desire to see Me that I have once revealed My form to you. One who longs to see Me shakes off gradually but completely all one's latent desires. sat-sevayādīrghayāpi
jātā mayi dṛḍhā matiḥ
hitvāvadyam imaṁ lokaṁ
gantā maj-janatām asi Through services rendered by you to the saints, even for a short period, your thought has been irrevocably fixed on Me. Therefore, casting off this reprehensible (material) body you will attain to the position of My own associate. |
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Post by service to Radha's feet on Jun 9, 2021 20:04:27 GMT -6
A few points from the above story:
The young lad, Narada as a son of a maidservant chose a secluded place for his worship. Seems to me that the most common situation wherein the Lord blesses His devotee by His appearance would be in secluded place and not in a public gathering, although that has happened too. Therefore, practicing bhajan in solitude is very much conducive for being in a suitable environment for experiencing something very special in bhajan.
Clearly, Narada attained bhava and prema. He (inner) senses and his mind became recipients of the Lord's antaranga shakti and was thus blessed with a darshan of the Lord within his heart. The main rule of bhakti is to always remember Krishna and never forget him. The power of remembrance, meditation on the Lord is a very powerful bhakti practice and glorified again and again in the Srimad Bhagavata.
After Narada was blessed with divine love and a vision of His beloved Lord, the darshan ended within his heart, his vision ceased. Narada was left with grief of separation.
The Lord instructed to Narada a reoccurring theme that would later come up again, especially in the rasa lila chapters of the 10th Book when Lord Krishna disappears from the Gopis; that the separation the devotee feels makes the bhakta more eager for Him. And becoming more eager for Krishna, the bhakta tastes more the love and attracts the Lord towards the bhakta. Thus it is for Krishna's pleasure and to drown the devotee with prema that Krishna creates situations of viraha, separation.
One last point. The Lord references services to saints as the cause of attaining bhakti, no matter how short-lived the seva/association took place. One should not underestimate the power of doing seva to the devotees of Sri Krishna. As Sri Sri Radha-Krishna in Vrindavan are the topmost Deities in the all the worlds (material and spiritual), so are Their devotees the topmost bhaktas. The higher the love, the more dear the devotee is to the Lord. To hear the stories of Krishna in Vrindavan from these saints can bestow the wonderful greed to attain Krishna's Vrajavasi bhakti.
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Post by meeno8 on Jun 10, 2021 19:13:36 GMT -6
A few days before my diksha ceremony, our gurudev gave me the task of carrying his water jug and danda as we went out of the temple to a remote hut, and he rode on a cycle riksha.
One day I asked him how I could increase my sadhana, and rather than prescribing more maha-mantra malas, he recommended an extra 1,000 Gopal mantras and 1,000 extra Kama gayatri mantras daily.
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Jun 14, 2021 6:38:55 GMT -6
A few days before my diksha ceremony, our gurudev gave me the task of carrying his water jug and danda as we went out of the temple to a remote hut, and he rode on a cycle riksha. One day I asked him how I could increase my sadhana, and rather than prescribing more maha-mantra malas, he recommended an extra 1,000 Gopal mantras and 1,000 extra Kama gayatri mantras daily. Radhe Radhe! Nice story!! Thanks for sharing it with us. I assume this latter recommendation was made after you received diksa? I suppose it goes without saying, but wanted to clarify. |
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