Is it a Curse in Disguise?

[gerard]

admin said:

As for this business about esoteric history, I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems like a recipe for delusion to me especially if it is worked out by each student himself. I tend to see the text as a verbal counterpart of that mysterious palace that Maya constructed for the Pandavas. It is full of illusions and misdirects, dead-ends and circular routes, but somewhere within it is a path that leads to a secret door behind which is its real inner meaning. One of Borghes' labyrinths also comes to mind. People have mostly failed to find that path and that door.

Your comparison with the Palace is apt but you do admit there is a secret (=occult) door to the real inner meaning (=esoteric) to be found. My point is that linguistics or darwinian evolutionism is not going to take you to that door.

[Nitaidas]

madanmohandas said:

BTW, I apologize for being a bit arrogant at times, but I can't help getting a bit hot under the collar and defensive now and then.

No need to mention it. You are among friends here, even if we don't always see eye to eye.

[Nitaidas]

gerard said:

admin said:

As for this business about esoteric history, I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems like a recipe for delusion to me especially if it is worked out by each student himself. I tend to see the text as a verbal counterpart of that mysterious palace that Maya constructed for the Pandavas. It is full of illusions and misdirects, dead-ends and circular routes, but somewhere within it is a path that leads to a secret door behind which is its real inner meaning. One of Borghes' labyrinths also comes to mind. People have mostly failed to find that path and that door.

Your comparison with the Palace is apt but you do admit there is a secret (=occult) door to the real inner meaning (=esoteric) to be found. My point is that linguistics or darwinian evolutionism is not going to take you to that door.

I admit that there is possibly a secret door. I can't admit something I don't know for sure. It may turn out to be a phantom door in the final analysis. If there is a door, however, I think that linguistics and evolution are essential methods to finding it. They may not by themselves be sufficient for finding the path, but without them any efforts to find the secret door become detached from the concrete manifestations of the text. Without that anchoring to the realities of the text and its manifestations in the world, our rafts of discovery will go floating off into an endless ocean of fantasy and delusion and ultimately solipsism.

Darwinian evolution is not strictly speaking necessary to this endeavor, but I see it as an important part of the teaching of the guru as manifest as the universe. Trying to refute it or deny it as "materialistic" is foolish. Of course it is materialistic. It is matter acting on matter. Selfish genes trying to reduplicate themselves the most successfully. There is a profound lesson in all this if only we are clever enough to catch it.

The evolution that I think is germane to the discovery of the inner meaning of the Bhagavata concerns its place in the gradual evolution of the divine self-manifestation in Indic history and culture and now in world culture, or in other words, correctly determining how it fits in with the texts before it and after it. To linguistics I would add vyAkarana, nyAya-vaizeSika, sAnkhya-yoga, vedAnta, and even alaGkAra-zAstra as disciplines essential to discovering the inner meaning of the Bhagavata. That is why it is so rarely found.

[gerard]

I should not have brought up the possible esoteric interpretation of the shastra's. I still have to learn to accept the fact that 99.9% of the people must stay on the "safe" road of the exoteric.

[gerard]

madanmohandas said:

So I reckon 'intensive' reading is the best way to approach the Hindu epics.

Intensive reading is the best way; it could become like a meditation. But does the inner meaning reveal itself then? I will take, if you don't mind, an example of a little story I really like from the MBh Udyoga:

"Garuda helped Galava Muni. Galava was a disciple of Visvamitra. Once Dharmadeva, to test Visvamitra, went to his asrama disguised as Vasistha and asked for food. As there was no ready-made food at the ashrama just then, Visvamitra naturally took some time to cook new food, and he went with it, steaming hot, in a plate to the guest. Saying that he would return within minutes and receive the food, the guest (Dharmadeva) left the place, and Visvamitra stood there with the plate in hand awaiting the return of the guest. He had to remain standing thus for one hundred years, and during this whole period it was Galava who stood there looking after his guru. When hundred years were completed Dharmadeva returned to Visvamitra and accepted his hospitality, and then only could the latter take some rest.

"Visvamitra blessed Galava, and now it was time for him to leave the asrama. Though Visvamitra told that no gurudaksina (tuition fee) was required Galava persisted in asking him what fee or present he wanted. Visvamitra lost his temper and told Galava that if he was so very particular about gurudaksina, eight hundred horses all having the colour of moon, and one ear black in colour might be given as daksina. Galava stood there aghast at the above pronouncement of his preceptor, when Garuda happened to go over there and hear from Galava about his sad plight. Money was required to purchase horses, but Galava was penniless. At any rate Garuda with Galava on his back flew eastwards and reached Rsabhaparvata and they rested on a peak of it. There the Brahma woman Sandili was engaged in tapas and she served them with food. After food Garuda spoke disparagingly about Sandili. Garuda and Galava slept that night on the floor, but when they woke up in the morning lo! Garuda was completely shed of his feathers. Garuda stood before Sandili, his head bent in anguish. Sandili blessed Garuda, who then got back his old feathers."

(synopsis from Vettam Mani's indispensable "Puranic Encyclopaedia", I have the entire book also on disc, you can download it somewhere, unfortunately this forum only allows a 100 KB attachment, that file is 7.3 MB)

What does a story like this really mean if you want to look beyond the fairy tale beauty of it? What is a Garuda as a plucked chicken on a mountain top? It is almost blasphemous to take it literal and if you approach it in a traditional symbolical fashion, you end up with some solar interpretation.
Do you think reading this story many, many times will tell you what it means? Or should somebody give you keys to the stories?

[kingcobra]

It sounds like based on what you are saying, Nitai, that the CC perhaps does not completely deserve the stature it has in CV. We already know from a biographical standpoint, it needs to be balanced by the other biographies of Caitanya. But what about its theology?

[Nitaidas]

gerard said:

I should not have brought up the possible esoteric interpretation of the shastra's. I still have to learn to accept the fact that 99.9% of the people must stay on the "safe" road of the exoteric.

The esoteric is dangerous. There is no way of verifying or falsifying such things. It is open season for scanners and frauds. Moreover, it may well be that such things are to some degree self-fulfilling, once a seed or meme is planted in a brain with a fertile imagination, the plantee invents what he or she wants the truth to be. Disciples have been boiled and eaten because of "esoteric" interpretations. Anyway, who doesn't want to be one of the elite who is in on the secret?

[Nitaidas]

madanmohandas said:

Perhaps that goes some way in explaining Sri Rupa's statement in BRS, 'bahugranthakalAbhyAsa...'
I've never really understood that properly.

What? You think he didn't read NyAya or AlankAra or VedAnta? They were well educated and they wrote for people who had educations similar to their own. Without such backgrounds it is virtually impossible to understand the subtleties of their writings.

[Nitaidas]

gerard said:

madanmohandas said:

So I reckon 'intensive' reading is the best way to approach the Hindu epics.

Intensive reading is the best way; it could become like a meditation. But does the inner meaning reveal itself then? I will take, if you don't mind, an example of a little story I really like from the MBh Udyoga:

"Garuda helped Galava Muni. Galava was a disciple of Visvamitra. Once Dharmadeva, to test Visvamitra, went to his asrama disguised as Vasistha and asked for food. As there was no ready-made food at the ashrama just then, Visvamitra naturally took some time to cook new food, and he went with it, steaming hot, in a plate to the guest. Saying that he would return within minutes and receive the food, the guest (Dharmadeva) left the place, and Visvamitra stood there with the plate in hand awaiting the return of the guest. He had to remain standing thus for one hundred years, and during this whole period it was Galava who stood there looking after his guru. When hundred years were completed Dharmadeva returned to Visvamitra and accepted his hospitality, and then only could the latter take some rest.

"Visvamitra blessed Galava, and now it was time for him to leave the asrama. Though Visvamitra told that no gurudaksina (tuition fee) was required Galava persisted in asking him what fee or present he wanted. Visvamitra lost his temper and told Galava that if he was so very particular about gurudaksina, eight hundred horses all having the colour of moon, and one ear black in colour might be given as daksina. Galava stood there aghast at the above pronouncement of his preceptor, when Garuda happened to go over there and hear from Galava about his sad plight. Money was required to purchase horses, but Galava was penniless. At any rate Garuda with Galava on his back flew eastwards and reached Rsabhaparvata and they rested on a peak of it. There the Brahma woman Sandili was engaged in tapas and she served them with food. After food Garuda spoke disparagingly about Sandili. Garuda and Galava slept that night on the floor, but when they woke up in the morning lo! Garuda was completely shed of his feathers. Garuda stood before Sandili, his head bent in anguish. Sandili blessed Garuda, who then got back his old feathers."

(synopsis from Vettam Mani's indispensable "Puranic Encyclopaedia", I have the entire book also on disc, you can download it somewhere, unfortunately this forum only allows a 100 KB attachment, that file is 7.3 MB)

What does a story like this really mean if you want to look beyond the fairy tale beauty of it? What is a Garuda as a plucked chicken on a mountain top? It is almost blasphemous to take it literal and if you approach it in a traditional symbolical fashion, you end up with some solar interpretation.
Do you think reading this story many, many times will tell you what it means? Or should somebody give you keys to the stories?

Give us a little taste, baba. Let's see what you are selling here.

[Nitaidas]

kingcobra said:

It sounds like based on what you are saying, Nitai, that the CC perhaps does not completely deserve the stature it has in CV. We already know from a biographical standpoint, it needs to be balanced by the other biographies of Caitanya. But what about its theology?

Like I said, the CC is a Reader's Digest version of the Gosvamin works. Not a good substitute for the real thing. That is not to say that I think that the Gosvamins are always right. They are a good place to start, however. We can pretty much always count on their works being well supported by the literature and well considered.

[Nitaidas]

I personally am very impressed with the traditional Jewish approach to the study of religious texts. They distinguish four levels of meaning or interpretation in the sacred writ.

The first is the literal meaning. Nothing get off the ground without that .

The second level is the legal meaning, that is, what do the texts tell us to do? How do they suggest we lead our lives. This would be the vaidhi level perhaps in the CV.

The third level is the allegorical level. That is the interpretation of the stories in terms of allegorical teachings. Interpreting say the 40 years in the desert as the journey of the soul through various trials and tribulations on the way to salvation or the "promised" land. Perhaps this is what Gerard means by "esoteric" meaning. His example seems to beg for an allegorical interpretation. Naturally, the Bhagavata is a rich ground for such interpretations. Philo and Maimonides were the Great Jewish writers who developed the allegorical dimension of biblical interpretation.

Finally, there is the mystical interpretation or dimension. This is the operation of holy text that brings one into direct experience of deity. There is a beautiful story in the Zohar that gives us a glimpse of how this level of meaning works. I am sure all you Kabalists know it. If no one tells it before I get on next time I will. This would be the rAgAnuga level, perhaps.

I think that maybe for the purposes of CV there should be either two subdivisions of this last level or another level added. Saksat darzana corresponds to the Jewish fourth level, but in CV there is also rasAsvAda which is different and maybe more profound. There is no doubt that much of the Bhagavata and most of the Gosvamin works are aimed at rasAsvAda.

All of these levels act and interact with each other making scriptural study and comprehension, the "experience" of zAstra, if you will, a multifaceted and complex phenomenon.

[gerard]

admin said:

gerard said:

I should not have brought up the possible esoteric interpretation of the shastra's. I still have to learn to accept the fact that 99.9% of the people must stay on the "safe" road of the exoteric.

There is no way of verifying or falsifying such things. It is open season for scanners and frauds. Moreover, it may well be that such things are to some degree self-fulfilling, once a seed or meme is planted in a brain with a fertile imagination, the plantee invents what he or she wants the truth to be. Disciples have been boiled and eaten because of "esoteric" interpretations. Anyway, who doesn't want to be one of the elite who is in on the secret?

This applies to all religions.

[gerard]

admin said:

I personally am very impressed with the traditional Jewish approach to the study of religious texts. They distinguish four levels of meaning or interpretation in the sacred writ.

The first is the literal meaning. Nothing get off the ground without that .

The second level is the legal meaning, that is, what do the texts tell us to do? How do they suggest we lead our lives. This would be the vaidhi level perhaps in the CV.

The third level is the allegorical level. That is the interpretation of the stories in terms of allegorical teachings. Interpreting say the 40 years in the desert as the journey of the soul through various trials and tribulations on the way to salvation or the "promised" land. Perhaps this is what Gerard means by "esoteric" meaning. His example seems to beg for an allegorical interpretation. Naturally, the Bhagavata is a rich ground for such interpretations. Philo and Maimonides were the Great Jewish writers who developed the allegorical dimension of biblical interpretation.

Finally, there is the mystical interpretation or dimension. This is the operation of holy text that brings one into direct experience of deity. There is a beautiful story in the Zohar that gives us a glimpse of how this level of meaning works. I am sure all you Kabalists know it. If no one tells it before I get on next time I will. This would be the rAgAnuga level, perhaps.

I think that maybe for the purposes of CV there should be either two subdivisions of this last level or another level added. Saksat darzana corresponds to the Jewish fourth level, but in CV there is also rasAsvAda which is different and maybe more profound. There is no doubt that much of the Bhagavata and most of the Gosvamin works are aimed at rasAsvAda.

All of these levels act and interact with each other making scriptural study and comprehension, the "experience" of zAstra, if you will, a multifaceted and complex phenomenon.

I have some notes on this system.
The first level is fine when you are trying to find out the historicity of persons and scriptures. The astronomical basis of all mythology is well researched (starting with G. de Santillana and H von Dechend's Hamlet's Mill, 1969) but then you are on the material plane still. It gets dangerous when one, like Thompson and Cremo, thinks one has moved to the spiritual. I have known somebody who actually thought that dragons were an extinct species like dinosaurs.

The second level is ethics, which is not exactly vaidhi bhakti, I think, more a corollary to bhakti. To grow spiritually a life of the highest ethical norms is essential. They say, to take one step on the spiritual path, you need to take three on the ethical path.

The third level is a bit of a problem. In the oldest texts allegorical interpretations are never mentioned. You'd be hard pushed to find an old term for "symbol". The whole concept seems to be absent in the four Veda's.
Plutarch (46-120 A.D) saw in all the gods "holy symbols" of the one Providence controlling all, but his 'enlightened' approach to the ancient Greek religion did not lead to a revival as he had hoped, but was its coup de grâce. The Ancients didn't need symbols; what we call symbols was reality to them.
Although I must say that I find it very hard not to read for instance the Ramayana as an allegory of the soul getting away from God into materiality (the golden city Lanka), God starting His loving search for His lost servant aided by Laksman (buddhi) and Hanuman (manas) to find out eventually that Sita was not really lost after all, just a Maya-Sita (Kurma Purana 2.34.126).
But then, I am not an Ancient. But allegory is not esotericism. I give an example somewhere else. I would have to replace the allegorical level with the esoteric level.

The fourth level of the Unio Mystica (in whatever shape, color, form or formless) must be the highest.

[gerard]

Nitai:

Give us a little taste, baba. Let's see what you are selling here.

Ah, if it were only so! I have nothing to sell (but my ignorance). But I will give a very, very little taste about involution and evolution of the jivatma/monad/soul only based on the Bhagavata and I hope it will not be an overdose:

“In the beginning” there was a vast sheet of nebulous mass, when the globes and planets, had not been formed, and the phenomena now known as day, night, year, month and season were still unknown.
The process known as Pralaya had absorbed the life energies of Triloki, which remained latent in that intermediate plane between the higher and the lower Lokas known as Mahar Loka. When the creative process set in, and the ground was prepared for the manifestation of life, life energies streamed forth from the Mahar Loka, more as types than as individuals. These types are called Prajapatis or the Lords of life kingdoms. They carry back to Triloki all the life energies of the previous Kalpa. At Pralaya, they draw back unto themselves all the life energies of the dying Triloki, and take a lasting sleep in the archetypal plane (Mahar Loka) to which they properly belong. The Prajapatis of the First Manvantara become the Rishis of other Manvantaras. As the first Lords of creation bring back the life energies as well as the lost experiences of the previous Kalpa, so the Rishis bring back the lost knowledge of each Manvantara.

In the first Manvantara, Marichi, Atri Angirasa, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, Bhrigu, Vasistha, Daksha, and Narada are mentioned as the chief Prajapatis.
Of the Prajapatis, seven form distinct types by themselves. They preside over the seven stars, which form the constellation of Great Bear. They send forth their energies from the plane of the Seven Sages, and guide the course of life evolution that takes place in Triloki. It is by great sacrifices and by great efforts that the highest Rishis of a Manvantara attain the position of the Seven Sages. Men may become sages, if they follow the true path. The grades that divide men from sages or Rishis proper are many, and human evolution proceeds on the line of those grades.

Energies of another kind proceeded from Mahar Loka, energies known as Devas and Asuras. They work out, or rather they are inti¬mately connected with, the tendency of life-evolution. There is a tendency in the Jivatma (or monad) to acquire experience of the lower planes, through senses which they develop. The Asuras are connected with this tendency. There is the opposite tendency in the Jiva to get rid of the material taint and the material restriction earned in the efforts to acquire manifold experiences and to gain back the original state of purity after the acquisition of fresh spiritual treasures though the experiences of matter. The Devas are connected with this tendency.
These are the forms of life which then come into existence and work out their evolution in this Triloki.
Life evolution proceeds on two different lines—that of globes and that of individuals. They are represented by the two sons of Manu—Priyavrata and Uttanapada.

In the line of Priyavrata we find how the globes were formed in the solar system, through various cosmic fires originating from Visvakarma, how this earth was formed, its continents and countries. The different divisions of the Bhur Loka are presided over by different forms of intelligence, who are the sons of Priyavrata.
In the line of Uttanapada we find the different life kingdoms passing through different stages of evolution.

First of all, we find a limit is put to life existence in Triloki by Dhruva. Dhruva, son of Uttanapada, presides over the Polar Star. That Star forms the farthest limit of Triloki. Matter is so attenuated there that it can last for one Kalpa. We are speaking of a period when infant souls merged out to commence the race of life in the present Kalpa. They were spiritual and highly spiritual too. But they were carried away by the general current of creative tendencies. They were to limit themselves by sheath after sheath, so that they might acquire the experiences of Svar Loka, of Bhuvar Loka and of Bhur Loka in succession. Dhruva, however, resisted the common temptation. He would not go down, for he had an important service to render to the Universe. Who would advise him in this noble mission but Narada Muni.

Dhruva remained fixed in his early spirituality. That was a sacrifice, for he could not enrich himself with further spiritual experiences, through the senses, of the lower planes of life. But he had to keep up an abode which was to be resorted to by evolved souls in later days, souls that in due course would reach that high spiritual plane.

From that Kalpic plane and the dweller thereof, we come to lower planes and their dwellers, to the divisions of time that rule the lives of individuals and of lives adapted to these divisions of time. We come from the elementals of the Svarga plane, or the Devas, to the elementals of the Astral or Bhuvar plane, the Pitris, Bhutas, Pretas and Pisachas, till we reach the mineral kingdom, represented by Himalya, the Mountain king. At this point a turning point was reached in life evolution, and the goddess of life-evolution became the daughter of the Mountain king.

Daksha, first as the son of Brahma, the creative Prajapati when the life-process rapidly worked itself out in Elemental forms. Then there was no sexual procreation. Creation meant the materialization of the sheaths of Jiva. Sati, the daughter of Daksha, was the guiding energy of life-evolution. She became wedded to Siva, the Lord of Bhutas, Pretas and Pisachas who by the infusion of their Tamasic energies could bring down Jivas from their high spiritual plane.
When the process of materialization was over, when the Jivas or Monads reached the lowest limits of materiality, the mission of Daksha came to an end.

Life evolution had now to pass through mineral, vegetable and animal stages, until at last the human stage was reached.
Sati now appeared as the daughter of the mineral king Himalaya. She gave the upward bent to life evolution and by the energy she imparted minerals were able to shake off the rigidity and stability of gross matter, to develop the sense of touch and to become vegetable at last. In like manner vegetable became animal, and animals at last became men.

Siva, the husband of Bhagavati or Durga, as Sati was now called, is the Purusha of Dissolution. Bhagavati is His Energy, Who guides the Monadic or Jiva Evolution of the Kalpa. It is the wear and tear, the process of destruction, that counteracts the cohesive strength of the particles forming mineral matter, which by its action becomes flexible and so receptive of outside influences.
Cells by division and death become capable of the life process in themselves. Vegetables grow by the rejection of cells, which necessitates a number of physiological processes. Death brings on life, waste, repair.
If animals exist in one and the same body, progress will be limited, further evolution will be impossible. It is by death that we evolve.
Bhagavati works out the evolution of life in different kingdoms till the stage of humanity is reached.

At this point Aryaman, one of the Adityas, comes to the help of humanity. Through his influence the sons of humanity become endowed with the power of reasoning,—the faculty of discrimination.
The sons of Aryaman are called Charshanis. The word Charshani literally means a ‘cultivator’. Its secondary sense given in the Vedic lexicon is one endowed with the discriminative faculty. The word Charshani is used in the Vedas for man. It is the equivalent of Arya or Aryan, the ploughman. But it is not as ploughmen or cultivators, that the Aryans had their high place in humanity, but as men endowed with the power of discrimination. And this we owe to Aryaman. This is why, though an Aditya, he is called the chief of Pitris by Sri Krishna.
" I am Aryaman of the Pitris."
Bhagavad Gita 10.29

We have thus the first stage in life evolution, when the Jivatma had to descend from the elemental to the mineral form. Next we have the second stage, when minerals passed through higher forms of life till the Human Kingdom was reached.
Then we have the third stage, when men became endowed with the power of discrimination.
In the exercise of the discriminative faculty men were helped by their elder brothers, the Rishis and Mahatmas of every period, and by Avataras who appeared from time to time.
Then the ground was prepared for further evolution. The Sacred Injunctions or the Vedas were revealed to men to give them a sense of right and wrong, of duties and prohibitions. The Vedas also held out to the developed sense of men the charming prospect of life in Svarga Loka with its lasting and alluring enjoyments. This may be called the stage of Karma Kanda. In following the stages of human evolution we have come down to Vaivasvata Manvantara.

Side by side with the efforts made to raise humanity in the scale of evolution, sin was accumulating in the great Atlantean continent. In esotericism Lemuria and Atlantis are unavoidable phases of evolution. The Atlanteans had acquired a mastery over the five forces of nature, which they used for selfish objects and against the cause and current of evolution.
Then there was a great revolution in Nature. The great Atlantean Continent went down with its load of sins. The sons of Sagar, the Atlantean king, became buried under the great ocean, which overtook the doomed continent.
There was a corresponding upheaval in the Himalayas, and the sacred river Ganges streamed forth from their sides, inaugurating the spiritual regeneration of the Universe.
Much of what we now know as India must have been raised up at the time, and on its sacred soil appeared the great Avatara Rama, who put an end to the disorganizing, chaos-loving sons of Lanka. The people of Lanka were called Rakshasas as they were working towards the destruction of all order, all progress in the Universe, and rendered everything topsy-turvy in Nature.
Now it was time for Sri Krishna to appear, the greatest of all Avataras in our Kalpa, Who gave the last bent to the progress of humanity. He wedded Himself with all the principles that enter into the constitution of man, so that man may come up to Him. He taught the path of Service and Devotion. He established the reign of spiritual life.

[Deleted]

Gerard:

Although I must say that I find it very hard not to read for instance the Ramayana as an allegory of the soul getting away from God into materiality (the golden city Lanka), God starting His loving search for His lost servant aided by Laksman (buddhi) and Hanuman (manas) to find out eventually that Sita was not really lost after all, just a Maya-Sita (Kurma Purana 2.34.126).

Hope I am not off topic here, but what about Rama Setu , as a proof of the actual event of Rama-Lila, would you read that as allegory?

"The name Rama's Bridge or Rama Setu (Sanskrit; setu: bridge) for the shoal of islands derives from the Sanskrit epic Ramayana (dated from 500 BCE to 100 BCE), in which a bridge from Rameswaram was built by allies of Rama that he used to reach Lanka and rescue his abducted wife Sita from the asura king, Ravana.[3] The sea separating India and Sri Lanka is called Sethusamudram "Sea of the Bridge". Maps prepared by Netherland cartographer during 1747 which is available in Tanjore Saraswathi mahal library shows this area as RAMANCOIL(can be translated as Ramar Temple).

Another map of Mogul India prepared by J.Rennel in 1788 retrieved from same library gives indications that this area would have been called as Rama Temple or Ramar Bridge. Many other maps which is available in University of Chicago websites [6][7] and other sources call this area with various names like Koti, Sethubandha, Sethubandha Rameswaram etc. . Earliest map which calls this area as Adam's bridge is prepared by British cartographer in 1804.[4]. Valmiki Ramayan calls mythological built by Lord Rama as setu bandhanam in verse 2-22-76[5]

Various travel guides,books, dictionary prepared during 18th and 19th century including travel guide written by Marco Polo calls this area as Setabund Rameswara or Ramar Bridge."