Is it a Curse in Disguise?

[kingcobra]

You have a very wild imagination, Gerard. Making the connection to Atlantis is a big stretch to say the least. The mineral kingdom? What's that all about? Cell division occurs the same way in plants as it does in animals. There is no rejection going on during the growth process, except maybe for layers of bark on trees (but we also have dead cells in our hair and fingernails).

You appear to be confusing the allegorical with facts. I suggest you learn about the science of plate tectonics, among other things.

[kingcobra]

Also, Gerard, your discussion of evolution confuses the concept of the spiritual journey of the jIva with what is actually the evolution of species. That does not really make a lot of sense. Involution? What sort of process would that be? Quite frankly your ideas are half-baked. As Nitai pointed out, there is a firm foundation in philosophy as a prerequisite to seriously approaching the Sanskrit texts. I suggest you start with that first, before you leap to the types of musings you have articulated on this topic.

[gerard]

Well, I seem to have a lot to do before I can post here again . Thanks for the study advice .

[kingcobra]

No need to be timid about posting here, but that is not going to let you off the hook as far as putting forth sensible arguments and ideas. The existence of Atlantis was originally viewed as pure myth, but in recent years archaeologists have pointed to a few potential sites, although they are islands that are much smaller than the size of a continent.

Here is a very interesting website on plate tectonics that has a fascinating animation showing continental drift over time.
www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/geology/tectonics.html

[kingcobra]

Note the land mass of Indian sub-continent slamming into the Asian continent at the end of the animation, which caused the formation of the Himalayan mountain range.

[kingcobra]

Basically it works like this: The earth's solid crust is formed of several plates that float around on top of the magma, which is very hot liquid rock. Those plates sometimes collide with each other. They are constantly in motion, and their annual movement has been measured by geologists.

[Nitaidas]

Hey Gerard, thanks for the peek at an esoteric interpretation of the Bhagavata. Now I think I know what you mean by esoteric. At first I thought you might be talking about something handed down "secretly" in the tradition of transmission of the Bhagavata, or at least something presented as if it were that, something like a secret version of the "oral" Torah. Now I see that you mean by esoteric the theosophical interpretation of the Bhagavata. That is the source of that interpretation, isn't it? You didn't come up with that on your own, did you? Anyway, I asked and you responded. Thanks. Sorry, for the cobra's arrogance. He seems to get the idea sometimes that he knows everything. Still, snakes are ancient symbols and their real meanings are esoteric. We're glad to have one in our midst, even if he does hiss a bit much.

What I had in mind as secret or esoteric is something more along the lines of the Kabalistic approach to the mystical level of interpretation of the Torah. Here is the story from the Zohar I mentioned earlier which I think applies equally well to the way one discovers the secret door to the inner meaning of the Bhagavata.

This is part of a discourse from the lips of a donkey driver:

Said he: Companions, it was not just to say what I have said up to now that I entered upon this discourse with you, for certainly an old man such as I would hardly stop at one utterance, making a sound like a single coin in a jar. What a multitude of humans there are who dwell in confusion, failing to perceive the way of truth that abides in the Torah, and the Torah, in love, summons them day after day to her, but woe, they do not so much as turn their heads. It is just as I have stated, the Torah releases one word, and comes forth from her sheath ever so little, and then retreats to concealment again. But this she does only for them who understand her and follow her precepts.

She may be compared to a beautiful and stately maiden, who is secluded in an isolated chamber of a palace, and has a lover of whose existence she alone knows. For love of her he passes by her gate unceasingly, and turns his eyes in all directions to discover her. She is aware that he is forever hovering about the palace, and what does she do? She thrusts open a small door in her secret chamber, for a moment reveals her face to her lover, then quickly withdraws it. He alone, none else, notices it; but he is aware it is from love of him that she has revealed herself to him for that moment, and his heart and soul and everything within him are drawn to her.

So it is with the Torah, which discloses her innermost secrets only to them who love her. She knows that whosoever is wise in heart hovers near the gates of her dwelling place day after day. What does she do? From her palace, she shows her face to him, and gives him a signal of love, and forthwith retreats back to her hiding place. Only he alone catches her message, and he is drawn to her with his whole heart and soul, and with all of his being. In this manner the Torah, for a moment, discloses herself in love to her lovers, so as to rouse them to renewed love. This then is the way of the Torah.

[Zohar: the book of splendor. Edited by Gershom Scholem, pp. 62-63]

Our case is the same, I think. By constant anuzIlana, the Bhagavata reveals itself to its lovers.

[Nitaidas]

madanmohandas said:

Well perhaps the virtue of the Bhagavat is in that whoever hears and studies it with intensity and love are able to visualize in their mind's eye the very form and person of Isvara.

kiM vA parairIzvarah sadyo hrdyavarudhyate krtibhih zuzrUSubhistatksaNAt/

What need is there of any other (text) when the lord immediately arises in the heart of the virtuous and attentive listeners there and then? (Bhag 1.1.2)

This kind of self-praise in the Bhagavata is interesting. It looks more like a commentary on the text than the text itself. These are the words of someone encountering the text rather than authoring the text. That along with other hints make me believe that the first and the last books are later additions. It is like framing a picture that one is particularly fond of. The first and last books urge us to read the Bhagavata as sources of rasAsvAda and sAkSAd-darzana. I wonder if there is a noticeable difference in language, too. This would be a thing that only someone intimate with the text would know. Certainly, in my field of expertise, rasa is not used with the sophistication of the first and last books anywhere else in the text. Usually rasa just means juice, not aesthetic or sacred "rapture." If this is true then the first and the last books represent the oldest surviving commentaries on the Bhagavata.

[kingcobra]

An interesting discussion on potentially esoteric features of the text, as well as the nature of esoterism itself. I wonder if some of the secret teachings in CV come down from earlier esoteric doctrines based on BP.

As far as my appearance of arrogance: I plead guilty as charged. If it were not true, people would not be pointing it out here. As I already stated a while back on another topic, I am a compulsive satirist, and satire is inherently cynical. There is something to be said for cynicism in that it helps balance overzealous optimism. I like my humor to be as dry as possible. On the other hand, I don't want to become some bitter and cantankerous old fool. So, I constantly remind myself how much worse things could be.

A word to the wise: If you want to avoid the sting of the cobra's sharp fangs, then try not to come within striking distance. I'll do my best to stifle the urge to spit venom.

[gerard]

Madan mohan dasji is right, this is a thread on CC.

So to wrap it up, yes, Nitaiji, my reply # 38 was mainly taken from the above mentioned book by the theosophist Sinha, but esotericism is much more than Theosophy, e.g. the Rosy Cross, Anthroposophy etc.

For all clarity, there is a difference between esoteric interpretation and allegorical interpretation as implied in my reply #37.
The esoteric is based on real historic events except not as they are described in our school books.

Cobraji, sorry, but I am not interested in a discussion on tectonics. I am fully aware that there is not a shred of direct evidence of the existence of Atlantis. Maybe indirect evidence.

All these subjects merit separate threads perhaps, but I don't know how to do that.

And to end this post, for Nitai, a little tale from the Hassids:

"Rabbi Susha was an amazing man. He was the only disciple of his master, the great maggid who did not pass on the teachings of his master.
The reason for this was that he never heard one discourse of his teacher to the end.
At the beginning of his discourse when the maggid read a passage from Scripture that he wanted to explain, he always began with the words And the Lord spake...
At the moment he spoke those unfathomable words Rabbi Susha became ecstatic and lost consciousness. The others had to take him outside to the woodshed. There they heard him banging his head against the wall and shouting: And the Lord spake..
What the Lord said rabbi Susha never heard from the great maggid, only that the Lord spoke."


(isn't that beautiful?)

[JD33]

Oct 11, 2007 22:13:49 GMT -6 Nitaidas said:

Nitaidas:

What I had in mind as secret or esoteric is something more along the lines of the Kabalistic approach to the mystical level of interpretation of the Torah. Here is the story from the Zohar I mentioned earlier which I think applies equally well to the way one discovers the secret door to the inner meaning of the Bhagavata.

This is part of a discourse from the lips of a donkey driver:

Said he: Companions, it was not just to say what I have said up to now that I entered upon this discourse with you, for certainly an old man such as I would hardly stop at one utterance, making a sound like a single coin in a jar. What a multitude of humans there are who dwell in confusion, failing to perceive the way of truth that abides in the Torah, and the Torah, in love, summons them day after day to her, but woe, they do not so much as turn their heads. It is just as I have stated, the Torah releases one word, and comes forth from her sheath ever so little, and then retreats to concealment again. But this she does only for them who understand her and follow her precepts.

She may be compared to a beautiful and stately maiden, who is secluded in an isolated chamber of a palace, and has a lover of whose existence she alone knows. For love of her he passes by her gate unceasingly, and turns his eyes in all directions to discover her. She is aware that he is forever hovering about the palace, and what does she do? She thrusts open a small door in her secret chamber, for a moment reveals her face to her lover, then quickly withdraws it. He alone, none else, notices it; but he is aware it is from love of him that she has revealed herself to him for that moment, and his heart and soul and everything within him are drawn to her.

So it is with the Torah, which discloses her innermost secrets only to them who love her. She knows that whosoever is wise in heart hovers near the gates of her dwelling place day after day. What does she do? From her palace, she shows her face to him, and gives him a signal of love, and forthwith retreats back to her hiding place. Only he alone catches her message, and he is drawn to her with his whole heart and soul, and with all of his being. In this manner the Torah, for a moment, discloses herself in love to her lovers, so as to rouse them to renewed love. This then is the way of the Torah.

[Zohar: the book of splendor. Edited by Gershom Scholem, pp. 62-63]

Our case is the same, I think. By constant anuzIlana, the Bhagavata reveals itself to its lovers.

[[ . Thank you for writing this out and sharing - really a wonderful allagory. I had a wonderful experience of this when a blessed Gurubhai (Guru-Brother) of mine who is a Babaji Bhagavat scholar/ Bhajananandi brought out his Bhagavat - did the prayers of respect and innvocation and then started reading from it. The small room we three were in became illuminated and transformed into Bhagavat prem and when I looked at the other person (another Gurubhai babaji) - I saw his Siddha deha form, as I was looking at her, superimposed.

[meeno8]

jd33: That is a fantastic vision of yours! How fortunate you have been! Hope to see you back here soon, bhai.