CV and Superstitions

[kd91]

The core essence of CV is chanting the Mahamantra and meditating on the pastimes of the deity/ies which is a mystical, almost transphenomenal reality. This is non-sectarian.

Observance of the eleventh day and etc are human-created and defies the principle of relishing eternity in a present moment. I call these superstitions. Those who follow such days as a cultural phenomenon must be taking it lightly and casually. The fast is important for mind and body. The specific days fixed for observing those by ancient or medieval thinkers are back-dated and should not be respected by modern men.

For me, ekadashi and so on hold no significance. Time is one. Respect anybody anytime. Keep your guru or inspiration in your heart always, with love. Go into fast anytime you like, be that an eleventh day, no problem. But do not say that 'shastra says, therefore i observe.' This is backwards thinking.

[Nityānanda dāsa]

Radhe Radhe Krishnadas-ji!

To "say that 'shastra says, therefore i observe." isn't backwards thinking. It is the thinking of a vaidhi bhakta, one who is oriented by the rules rather than attraction, lobha (greed), and/or love.

When it comes to non-sectarian vs. superstition, chanting the maha mantra and deity seva/smarana are sectarian. Which other religions teach these the way that Rupa Gosvamin has? Sure other religions pray, which could be compared to the maha mantra, but I doubt that many do archana or smarana like we do.

And then to argue that Ekadasi is a superstition doesn't fit as the reason we follow Ekadasi is the same reason we do maha mantra and deity seva/meditation. These practices are given by our acharyas and sastras.

Certainly there are CV practices that are considered better than the others with the chanting of the maha mantra (and Krishna/Gopal mantra for those who've received legitimate diksa) as the singular primary practice. After that come the other 4 of 5 most powerful practices delineated in BRS - sadhu sanga nam kirtan bhagavat sravana, mathura vasa sri murtira sradhaya sevana. And then the rest, etc.

Rupa Gosvamipad does list these as part of the 'vaidhi bhakti' list. But clearly the raga bhakta also executes these main principles as the acharyas have stated that these will help us develop our raga bhakti.

Seems to me that superstitions would be things like snapping your fingers when you yawn. And even Sri Radha does that! Does it mean we should? Hard to say. Maybe in our meditation as a manjari sevak we would do as our Vrindavanesvari also does?? Do we have to do it on the day to day? I'm sure our co-workers would get a kick out of it! 😄

But that kind of thing seems to be more of a superstition to me. And that some 'rituals' seem to share the category of superstition as well, but who am I to say?

In terms of Ekadasi, other religions do observe fasting. Not necessarily for the same reasons on the same days. But it seems that fasting can also be an element that assists our practice of Bhakti.

Personally, i wish i was better at observing Ekadasi. I did manage to 'not eat grains' on this past one. But that just means eating cheese and potato chips, which I usually try not to eat. Maybe the idea is a little tapasya, while increasing our time with Radha Govinda in the form of heir names?

Anyway, again, the encouragement to follow Ekadasi comes from the same place as nam kirtan and smaran, i.e., the acharyas, shastras, Mahaprabhu himself, as well as his nitya siddha companions.

Thoughts?

Jai Sri Radhe!

[madanmohandas]

What is superstition? To hold irrational beliefs? To be under the influence of Pavlovian conditioning? Hahahaha. There are some strictures in the Puranas like, if you drink milk from a certain pot on a certain day, it is a sinful as copulating with your mother'. Now that's where I rebel, but there are plenty of such references, which to follow might be deemed superstitions. Then there is the guilt of committing some indiscretion, is that superstition or a good conscience?
Still I do also sometimes as kdb91 implies just feel like a bird or something with no idea of what day it is.

[kd91]

Thanks for your comments, dear Nilamadhavaji and Madanmohanji. May I have your comments on Astrology? In the scriptures including the rasa ones it is found enough. Even Radhaji has many gemstones on her fingers (if I recall it correct) and Krishnaji too, including a tābija, an amulet on his hand. Well these things are alright for a fictional narrative. If God is a fictional entity (and maybe being equally real, on a psychological plane) all other fictional creations can be nice supplement to that. But I personally never take these as anything substantial. Astrology is for those who have never heard of Astronomy. Some even can't distinguish between the two.

[kd91]

Aug 30, 2020 0:54:11 GMT -6 Nityānanda dāsa said:

Radhe Radhe Krishnadas-ji!

To "say that 'shastra says, therefore i observe." isn't backwards thinking. It is the thinking of a vaidhi bhakta, one who is oriented by the rules rather than attraction, lobha (greed), and/or love.

When it comes to non-sectarian vs. superstition, chanting the maha mantra and deity seva/smarana are sectarian. Which other religions teach these the way that Rupa Gosvamin has? Sure other religions pray, which could be compared to the maha mantra, but I doubt that many do archana or smarana like we do.

And then to argue that Ekadasi is a superstition doesn't fit as the reason we follow Ekadasi is the same reason we do maha mantra and deity seva/meditation. These practices are given by our acharyas and sastras.

Certainly there are CV practices that are considered better than the others with the chanting of the maha mantra (and Krishna/Gopal mantra for those who've received legitimate diksa) as the singular primary practice. After that come the other 4 of 5 most powerful practices delineated in BRS - sadhu sanga nam kirtan bhagavat sravana, mathura vasa sri murtira sradhaya sevana. And then the rest, etc.

Rupa Gosvamipad does list these as part of the 'vaidhi bhakti' list. But clearly the raga bhakta also executes these main principles as the acharyas have stated that these will help us develop our raga bhakti.

Seems to me that superstitions would be things like snapping your fingers when you yawn. And even Sri Radha does that! Does it mean we should? Hard to say. Maybe in our meditation as a manjari sevak we would do as our Vrindavanesvari also does?? Do we have to do it on the day to day? I'm sure our co-workers would get a kick out of it! 😄

But that kind of thing seems to be more of a superstition to me. And that some 'rituals' seem to share the category of superstition as well, but who am I to say?

In terms of Ekadasi, other religions do observe fasting. Not necessarily for the same reasons on the same days. But it seems that fasting can also be an element that assists our practice of Bhakti.

Personally, i wish i was better at observing Ekadasi. I did manage to 'not eat grains' on this past one. But that just means eating cheese and potato chips, which I usually try not to eat. Maybe the idea is a little tapasya, while increasing our time with Radha Govinda in the form of heir names?

Anyway, again, the encouragement to follow Ekadasi comes from the same place as nam kirtan and smaran, i.e., the acharyas, shastras, Mahaprabhu himself, as well as his nitya siddha companions.

Thoughts?

Jai Sri Radhe!

I will think about the points you have presented.

[madanmohandas]

Aug 30, 2020 7:27:27 GMT -6 kd91 said:

Thanks for your comments, dear Nilamadhavaji and Madanmohanji. May I have your comments on Astrology? In the scriptures including the rasa ones it is found enough. Even Radhaji has many gemstones on her fingers (if I recall it correct) and Krishnaji too, including a tābija, an amulet on his hand. Well these things are alright for a fictional narrative. If God is a fictional entity (and maybe being equally real, on a psychological plane) all other fictional creations can be nice supplement to that. But I personally never take these as anything substantial. Astrology is for those who have never heard of Astronomy. Some even can't distinguish between the two.

I suppose the avatara in manifest lila would adhere, for show perhaps, to customs and contemporary conventions of the environment in which he has chosen to appear in the guise of a man. When Krishna interrogates Nanda on the validity of the Indra yaga, he inquires whether it is ordained or merely tradition. But I'm out of my depth here, as for astrology I know little. Only there is some humorous reference in Govinda Lilamrta with regard to adoration of the nine grahas. I find it hard to think of God as a fictional character like Tom Jones or Sherlock homes, but if anything a great man was made into a God. Personally I think if anyone was God it has to be Krishna. and in all probability what is said about him and what is reportedly said by him is quite good and proper and true.

[meeno8]

One point, and I don't mean to be overly pedantic: Rupa's official title is Prabhupada, but Jagannath Das and I were fed lunch by one Goswami in the Advaita poribar in Vrindavan that also uses that title.

As far as Astronomy and Astrology, I have studied them both (Astronomy in grades 1 to 12, and then in college). I think you might be very surprised if you consult a good Vedic (and NOT western) astrologer, and get accurate readings and predictions. As I have pointed out on this forum, in my own research I have found extremly string correlations between planetary orbits and price movements in financial markets. Those have held up statistically since I first discovered them in 1984.

[Īśvaradāsa]

Aug 29, 2020 19:58:40 GMT -6 kd91 said:

The core essence of CV is chanting the Mahamantra and meditating on the pastimes of the deity/ies which is a mystical, almost transphenomenal reality. This is non-sectarian.

Observance of the eleventh day and etc are human-created and defies the principle of relishing eternity in a present moment. I call these superstitions. Those who follow such days as a cultural phenomenon must be taking it lightly and casually. The fast is important for mind and body. The specific days fixed for observing those by ancient or medieval thinkers are back-dated and should not be respected by modern men.

For me, ekadashi and so on hold no significance. Time is one. Respect anybody anytime. Keep your guru or inspiration in your heart always, with love. Go into fast anytime you like, be that an eleventh day, no problem. But do not say that 'shastra says, therefore i observe.' This is backwards thinking.

Hi, Krsnadasji


Yes, Harinama is the life of CV, kirtana and smarana are the core practices, but I rather think the core essence of CV is love and humility. These are both the outcome and the support of those practices. Love and humility are non-sectarian, you can find them in any tradition, as well as outside the context of religion. Their full potential is the thread running through the Siksastakam and the descriptions of Mahaprabhu’s character.

One action can be prompted by different motives and reasons, discerning them is not always easy or evident, not even in the case of oneself. The original meaning behind the following of Ekadasi may have been lost in history, but meaning is something that is constantly being recreated and transformed by human experience in time. Humbleness implies not only self awareness but also empathy. Even though many just follow sastra in regards to things like Ekadasi, it’s usually not just for the sake of following, there’s often a mixture of motives: they believe it pleases Guru and Bhagavan, or that it will bring them closer to a state of firmness in their practice, they trust the experiences and statements of previous sadhakas, or they see it as an opportunity to break from the continuum of daily life to enter into a more demarcated and sought out space for communion with their Ista, one which is conveniently supported by others in their own community, etc. I see how it might feel dishonest to follow or do something that has no meaning to you, but I think you can appreciate how the same thing can have meaning to others and how they may find it helpful in reaching their desired goal, without outright considering them as backwards.

Anyway, interestingly enough though, Sri Jiva Gosvami describes two tendencies in the bhaktas, vicara marga and ruci marga, the first one refers to those of us who usually need to engage in a process of manana or deliberation and analysis before being convinced of engaging in any particular practice, or before accepting any particular statement from scripture. The second one refers to those who do things out of liking or love for the thing itself, similar to how you don’t feel any need to be convinced of doing something that you already love to do in regular life. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive of course, most of us experience a mixture of the two, with one or the other being predominant at some point, and remaining open to change. The decisive factor in this is an old familiar one: sanga.

[madanmohandas]

Aug 30, 2020 11:06:41 GMT -6 meeno8 said:

One point, and I don't mean to be overly pedantic: Rupa's official title is Prabhupada, but Jagannath Das and I were fed lunch by one Goswami in the Advaita poribar in Vrindavan that also uses that title.

As far as Astronomy and Astrology, I have studied them both (Astronomy in grades 1 to 12, and then in college). I think you might be very surprised if you consult a good Vedic (and NOT western) astrologer, and get accurate readings and predictions. As I have pointed out on this forum, in my own research I have found extremly string correlations between planetary orbits and price movements in financial markets. Those have held up statistically since I first discovered them in 1984.

Well, one might say Sanatan's official title is Prabhupada, as Rupa addresses him as such. But I do want to be pedantic either. Official titles can end up filling a whole page in the front of a book and now it has become fashionable (in some western sangas) to refer to senior devotees as 'pujyapada' and I wonder how sincere such extravagant praise can possibly be.
As for astrology, I care little for it and even less for the movements in financial markets. I do respect it as an ancient science particularly in relation to narratives in the Puranas and the references in Krishna's pastimes, and it serves a good purpose in knowing the annual celebrations and the correct times and seasons for sowing and reaping. But as for its current application it seems quite irrelevant.
I hope you do not take offence at my impudent tone. I do apologise for it.

[malati]

Isn't Ekadasi connected with the movement of the moon.

I think there's a practical reason to observe ekadasi. In gardening you are advised to sow the seeds when it's high tide because the seeds are believed to germinate faster and result in a healthier plant because the water in the soil are in a higher level and can easily reach the top soil.

I heard that during high tide, something to do with the gravitational pull of the moon on the earth's bodies of water, our blood flows faster too and therefore it affects us physically and as a result affects us psychologically. They say we are more prone to anger and violence during high tides. So if we fast , our body does not have to do double work, so fasting helps us be calmer. And if we are calm we might be able to concentrate more on our spiritual practices during a certain phase of the moon.

I agree, some practices that are cultural in CV are superstitions and some that are in the CV book on how to live life are superstitions too.

I think I will credit Bhativedanta Swami for saying, "Take the essence". I agree with him.

[meeno8]

That is correct Malati. The lunar calendars are distinctly different from solar calendars (such as the Gregorian and Julian ones). Ekadashi is the 11th tithi (or lunar day). Each phase (krishna paksha which means waning or shukra paksha which means waxing) is divided into equal parts from purnima (full) to amavasya (new) and back again. Those will overlap with sunrise and sunset, and sometimes even coincide with sunrise and sunset. You could say the day begins at midnight, as our modern solar calendar indicates. Or you could say it begins at dawn with the sunrise. Tomato, tomato, potato, potato.

As Eliade describes time in general, it can be considered as linear, or circular. The Sanskrit texts describe Shani (Saturn) as being very powerful. That planet (graha) in particular has more correlation with bigger price swings on the S&P 500 stock index over longer periods of time than the other grahas (which include the sun and moon and the invisible Rahu and Ketu, or Rahu's body).

Too much information? I have tried to be as concise as possible without causing information overload.

[kd91]

Aug 30, 2020 11:06:41 GMT -6 meeno8 said:

One point, and I don't mean to be overly pedantic: Rupa's official title is Prabhupada, but Jagannath Das and I were fed lunch by one Goswami in the Advaita poribar in Vrindavan that also uses that title.

As far as Astronomy and Astrology, I have studied them both (Astronomy in grades 1 to 12, and then in college). I think you might be very surprised if you consult a good Vedic (and NOT western) astrologer, and get accurate readings and predictions. As I have pointed out on this forum, in my own research I have found extremly string correlations between planetary orbits and price movements in financial markets. Those have held up statistically since I first discovered them in 1984.

Dear, if my goal is to be absorbed in the mystical love rasa of Radha and Krishna as a maid in my innermost identity then why in the world should I care for Astrology, dear?

Moreover my own experience staying in Bengal village has been that it cripples people in their perception of reality which heavily affects negatively their day to day life. If destiny is already set, why care for efforts?--they think. Indian Media is quite owned by big name astrologers who just make sheep of the foolish by selling them pricy gemstones etc. And we had 4 or 5 anti-superstitions activists/humanists murdered in recent years for exposing, for the sake of humanity, the Godmen who claim to do miracles and earn a lot doing that. And one such gentleman had to leave the country and seek asylum in Finland who could be mob-killed after exposing a Godman on camera.

Perhaps Astrology has some psychological effects on people's minds and the so called right predictions are all coincidence.

youtu.be/EoiNhwq-BD8

[meeno8]

Yes. For us jyotish (Vedic astrology) is for the most part irrelevant.

I cited correlations that have held up statistically, rather than cause and effect. The gravitational pull of the moon that has a definite effect on ocean tides is quite another matter.

Charlatans will always prey on victims as long as there are gullible people.

"There's a sucker born every minute..." - attributed to PT Barnum

[meeno8]

If you consider yourself to be an adherent of CV, but do not care about jyotish and the calendar that provides important dates on the lunar calendar, such as Krishna-janmastami, that seems somewhat hypocritical on your part. Perhaps that is not what you meant, but it would behoove you not to throw the baby out with the bath water, don't you think?

It has been demonstrated that so-called 'free will' is but an illusion in the laboratory with subjects that move, for example their arm, while in an fMRI scan. Their brains send a signal for the muscle to move the arm a split second before they are conscious of their desire to move the arm. Just another trick of maya. How do we acquire actual free will? I would have to say via sadhana to get out of the dungeon of causes and effects.

[meeno8]

An outsider might say, "Look at those followers of Chaitanya and their silly superstitions. Fasting on specific lunar days and following their own holidays like the birthday of Krishna. Considering the birth place of Krishna and places where he enacted his exploits to be sacred spaces." For us they are not mere superstitions such as spilling salt that requires throwing a pinch over one's shoulder, or breaking a mirror bringing 7 years of bad fortune.