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Post by avadhutadas on Feb 1, 2022 19:06:26 GMT -6
That's alright, Nitai, I should have mentioned it.( I was trying to sound scholarly by saying, 'the commentator') I also thought there was an exquisite irony in that statement regarding renunciates having mastered the urges, which I hoped would have been picked by my saying there is no harm in reminding them. Still, I'm just having some fun, and really just want to try and include the cross references in rhyming couplets, and perhaps digress into my own thoughts on the text, (actually most of it is my own expression). As for Bhaktivinoda and his occasional pious fraud, I don't mind it so much; though I do not see the need of it. But I do not like to entertain bitterness with regard to things and try to take the rough with the smooth. I suppose we all have our unconscious motives expressed in our assertions. Incidentally, I was wanting to have a go at Dasa Mula, but since I learnt from one of your books that the author was not Bhaktivinoda, but Vipin Bihari Goswami, I was unclear how to proceed, or at least who to attribute it to and how to explain that to those auditors who labour, as it might be, under the wrong attribution. You are scholarly, madanmohandasji. That one comment jumped out at me because of my rant the other day about babajis and sannyasis not being the center of CV. I have known lots of sannyasis and some babajis who are anything but in control of their senses. And I suspect that the verse itself is a bit of an overstatement. It is not that hard to control one's senses. It is not like we are all wildly running around trying to gratify our senses. Nor, in fact, should we starve our senses (हृशिकेन हृशिकेशसेवनम्,and all). That just seemed a dumb and unrealistic comment. Well, we are surrounded by pious frauds. Religion itself is largely made up of pious frauds. It survives mostly by fraud and human loneliness and desperation. Bhaktivinode graduated from making up texts and claiming them to be by companions of Mahaprabhu to real estate fraud. When it became clear that one could not purchase land in Navadvip for money or life, he created the Mayapur fraud and bought up all the cheap land he could from the poor Muslims living across the river. In a way it was genius, but also extremely cruel and exploitative. The Muslims got paisa on the bigha and GM got filthy rich, extracting huge sums from gullible Vaisnavas who did not know any better. Anyway, that is the way it is. The big fish eat the little fish and get fatter. Those are not the only frauds we face, however. The Bhagavata itself is full of fraud, fraudulent in trying to pretend it is older than it is by using and often misusing "Vedic" language, the fraud of adding verses at the front and back of the text and pretending they were always there, the fraud of pretending that there is only one author of the text and that that author was Vyasa, etc., etc. It almost seems as if, if one does not perpetrate some fraud, one is not really part of the tradition. Someday I will make a list of all the frauds perpetrated in the name of CV. Where is one going to search in order to find the truth? Wish I could just close my eyes and bury my head in the sand like so many others have. I beseech Radha and Krsna and of course gurudev to help us clean up this mess. Maybe it is even too much for them. We are homo fraudus, to misquote Eliade. Anyway, please do present the Dasamula. I now have found the 1000 page original work by Vipina Vihari Goswamin. Someone scanned it and put it up on archive.org. Bhakivinode's work is just a brief summary of that. We should consider whether even that has its own little frauds incorporated (a claimed connection with Madhva, for instance).
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Post by avadhutadas on Feb 1, 2022 19:11:02 GMT -6
You are scholarly, madanmohandasji. That one comment jumped out at me because of my rant the other day about babajis and sannyasis not being the center of CV. I have known lots of sannyasis and some babajis who are anything but in control of their senses. And I suspect that the verse itself is a bit of an overstatement. It is not that hard to control one's senses. It is not like we are all wildly running around trying to gratify our senses. Nor, in fact, should we starve our senses (हृशिकेन हृशिकेशसेवनम्,and all). That just seemed a dumb and unrealistic comment. Well, we are surrounded by pious frauds. Religion itself is largely made up of pious frauds. It survives mostly by fraud and human loneliness and desperation. Bhaktivinode graduated from making up texts and claiming them to be by companions of Mahaprabhu to real estate fraud. When it became clear that one could not purchase land in Navadvip for money or life, he created the Mayapur fraud and bought up all the cheap land he could from the poor Muslims living across the river. In a way it was genius, but also extremely cruel and exploitative. The Muslims got paisa on the bigha and GM got filthy rich, extracting huge sums from gullible Vaisnavas who did not know any better. Anyway, that is the way it is. The big fish eat the little fish and get fatter. Those are not the only frauds we face, however. The Bhagavata itself is full of fraud, fraudulent in trying to pretend it is older than it is by using and often misusing "Vedic" language, the fraud of adding verses at the front and back of the text and pretending they were always there, the fraud of pretending that there is only one author of the text and that that author was Vyasa, etc., etc. It almost seems as if, if one does not perpetrate some fraud, one is not really part of the tradition. Someday I will make a list of all the frauds perpetrated in the name of CV. Where is one going to search in order to find the truth? Wish I could just close my eyes and bury my head in the sand like so many others have. I beseech Radha and Krsna and of course gurudev to help us clean up this mess. Maybe it is even too much for them. We are homo fraudus, to misquote Eliade. Anyway, please do present the Dasamula. I now have found the 1000 page original work by Vipina Vihari Goswamin. Someone scanned it and put it up on archive.org. Bhakivinode's work is just a brief summary of that. We should consider whether even that has its own little frauds incorporated (a claimed connection with Madhva, for instance). Jai Nitai. This is my first post and haven’t really figured out the lay of the land yet. Nityananda das invited me here. Dear Nitaidasji, I am wondering if you compiled a list of the frauds found in CV?
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 2, 2022 14:21:29 GMT -6
Jai Nitai. This is my first post and haven’t really figured out the lay of the land yet. Nityananda das invited me here. Dear Nitaidasji, I am wondering if you compiled a list of the frauds found in CV? Ah! Dear Avadhutadas. Welcome to the forum. I have noticed you here for a while and am pleased that you have decided to break your silence. Thanks for your question, though, indeed, it opens up a Pandora box. Who knows what unfortunate truths will burst forth? Anyway, you asked for a list of frauds found in CV. Did you mean CV or IGM? There are frauds in my view in both, unfortunately. I have not compiled a list of frauds, though in my various posts I have referred to many. I can start a list here. Let's begin with the frauds of IGM (Iskcon-Gaudiya Math): 1. Bhaktisiddhanta was never initiated into CV (thus he never received the empowered mantras from disciplic succession). 2. Bhaktisiddhanta nevertheless began initiating others as if he were initiated. 3. Bhaktisiddhanta was never initiated into sannyasa. He just declared himself one and took the name of the highest order of the Dasanami sannyasa tradition: Sarasvati. 4. Bhaktisiddhanta began giving others sannyasa initiation. 5. Bhaktisiddhanta or his cohorts invented a guru-parampara in which none of the members are actually related to each other by initiation or even siksa since some of them never met each other. He called this a siksa-parampara, but there is no such thing in CV. One can have many siksa gurus according to Sri Jiva. How can they be organized into a parampara? 6. Bhaktivinoda wrote several works himself and claimed that they were by companions of Sri Caitanya. 7. Bhaktivinoda invented the idea that a poor Muslim village on the other side of the Ganga called Miyapur was the real Mayapura of Mahaprabhu. This is the real estate fraud I mentioned before. He could buy up the land cheaply and build his temples and ashrams whereas trying to do so in Navadvip would have been expensive and difficult. 8. Bhaktivinoda was not as respected and honored by the siddha babas of Navadvipa as people have claimed. Gaurakisore Das Baba would rather hideout in a prostitute house than hang out with Bhaktivinoda. 9. Bhaktivinoda was rejected by his gurudev Vipin Vihari Goswami, thereby cutting him off from the spiritual current coming from Mahaprabhu, or in his case Nityananda Prabhu. 10. Sannyasa is not an institution embraced by CV. It is not recommended in the scriptures for this age. 11. IGM is therefore not the only surviving live lineage coming from Mahaprabhu as Bhaktivedanta claimed many times. It is not even connected to the authentic lineages coming from Sri Caitanya or his close companions at all. One cannot even call it dead, since it never was alive. 12. The books published by IGM and speeches given by the members of IGM are full of Vaisnava aparadha and therefore are detrimental to the growth of bhakti in the reader/hearers of those works. The bhakti plant will therefore not be nourished by hearing such works, but instead will be weakened and perhaps killed. 13. Doctrinally, it is not true that vaidhi bhakti leads to raganuga bhakti. Anyone who reads Sri Rupa Goswamin's Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu knows that they are completely separate paths with completely different results. 14. Preaching is not the most important function of the followers of CV. Cultivating bhakti in their own hearts is, or rather, preparing their hearts for the descent of bhakti. Bhakti cannot be forced or produced. We can only prepare the soil so that when it descends it will take root and flourish. When one has bhakti it is communicated to others by one's sanga, not by preaching. Think of it as somewhat like a communicable disease. When one catches it one becomes mad with Krsna-preman. There is no way to make it happen. One must wait on the grace of the Lord and his bhaktas. The ignorant living being who preaches becomes arrogant and deluded and almost necessarily offensive. Only one who knows Krsna can preach and we only know Krsna through bhakti (which is samvit and hladini, knowledge and pleasure, combined). Bas! Enough for now. I will post others later when they come to mind.
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Post by avadhutadas on Feb 2, 2022 16:57:49 GMT -6
Thanks for the warm welcome Nitaidasji. I am familiar with the IGM ones to a degree, mostly due to reading the archives of Gaudiya Discussions and an article (by you) on a blog called "Bhaktisiddhanta truth". I do believe this is important information and I regret the small amount of time I spent with ACBVs books. In my defense I started skipping his purports pretty early in my studies. I think points 13 and 14 in your list above are the most important to me at this time.
However, what I'm really after, are the "frauds" farther down the line. If Mahaprabhu were to read the Chaitanya Charitamrta what would He think? What happened at the festival of Kheturi? Does the Chaitanya Bhagavat give a better representation of "true" Gaudiya siddhant as taught by Sri Gaura and Nitai? Is anyone today properly representing what Mahaprabhu taught?
Mahaprabhu seems to have barely said anything of His own and yet I find Him to be an extremely compelling personality. How do I know what He actually taught? Is it true that He empowered the six goswamis to write everything that needed to be written? These are my burning questions at this time.
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