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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 26, 2020 14:38:47 GMT -6
The reference to the citation on verse eight is from BRS 1.2.182 maanasenopacaarena paricarya harim sadaa/ pare vaanmanasa'gamya tam saaksaat pratipedire// Thanks. I put this in place and corrected a few other small things.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 26, 2020 15:42:13 GMT -6
That is great, I think it lends itself to the consecutive format very well. As for the Dasamula, perhaps it would be worth having it as a separate volume. I do have the GM edition, and with all the annotations and quotations it would probably come to a sizable book; and I would like to spend more time on it. There were one or two adjustments wanting, and I will find the reference to the unreferenced citation, but I'm going to be away from the 'office' for a while today. Good idea. The Dasamula is a bit different. In the first place, in my view, it is another of the frauds I mentioned earlier. It does not really represent the teachings of Mahaprabhu. For those, our best source is perhaps the Siksastaka. He does not mention anything about Vedic inerrancy in those. What we find in the Dasamula is the fundamental ideas of CV theology based on works of the Sanatana, Rupa, Jiva and others. These they developed through their own studies of and reflections on the main texts of the Vaisnava tradition (largely the Bhagavata Purana, and for Rupa the literary critical works on rasa that were available to him). When Jiva expresses his doctrine of Acintya-bhedAbheda he is expressing his own view arrived at after careful study and reflection on all the sources of knowledge available to him, not Mahaprabhu's view. I know I am going to get into deep shit with the IGM know-nothings and even the traditional CV automatrons who believe everything that comes down the pike without slightest indication of having a living brain with sparking synapses between their ears, but, hey, I'm already in deep shit with just about everybody, anyway. The perpetrator of this fraud is Krsnadas Kaviraja who portrays the Goswamis as having learned everything they know from Mahaprabhu. The conversations he manufactured in his Cc were just opportunities to present brief summaries of the major works and thoughts of the Goswamis, not accounts of actual meetings in which Mahaprabhu taught them everything they knew. Presenting their works in that way was also a sure-fire way of getting the works of the Goswamis accepted as authentic by the Caitanya bhaktas of Bengal. The Dasamula is really based on the mature thinking of the intellectuals of the era who tried to make sense of the ecstatic life and experiences of Mahaprabhu. Therefore, it stands apart from the other works we talked about including in this book, coming as it does after the end of the creative period of CV philosophical development. To claim, as Bhaktivinode does, that the Dasamula is the teaching of Mahaprabhu is deceitful. It is actually the teaching that gradually became the main lines of thought of the CV tradition as it developed after Mahaprabhu's departure, through the brilliant and sensitive reflections and writings of the Goswamis and their followers (Radhakrsna Goswami, Visvanatha Cakravartin, the descendants of Gopala Bhatta Goswami, and numerous others whose names are less known or have been forgotten like Radhamohana Goswami). It is valuable because of this, not because of any direct connection with Sri Caitanya. Whether anyone else buys this interpretation or not, doesn't really matter to me. It makes more sense to me than the alternative and fits better the historical details of the development of CV over the last five centuries.
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Post by JD33 on Jul 26, 2020 15:54:04 GMT -6
Nitai-Gaur, Radhey-Shyam; Hare Krsna, Hare Ram.
Where can one like me - not knowing Sanskrit, nor enough Bangla to read it from those sources, can get a copy in English that is a correct translation?
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 26, 2020 23:25:34 GMT -6
Nitai-Gaur, Radhey-Shyam; Hare Krsna, Hare Ram. Where can one like me - not knowing Sanskrit, nor enough Bangla to read it from those sources, can get a copy in English that is a correct translation? Jagadish dass, the translation is linked in a previous post in this thread. You can download it from there. राधे राधे !
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Post by madanmohandas on Jul 27, 2020 0:53:10 GMT -6
That is great, I think it lends itself to the consecutive format very well. As for the Dasamula, perhaps it would be worth having it as a separate volume. I do have the GM edition, and with all the annotations and quotations it would probably come to a sizable book; and I would like to spend more time on it. There were one or two adjustments wanting, and I will find the reference to the unreferenced citation, but I'm going to be away from the 'office' for a while today. Good idea. The Dasamula is a bit different. In the first place, in my view, it is another of the frauds I mentioned earlier. It does not really represent the teachings of Mahaprabhu. For those, our best source is perhaps the Siksastaka. He does not mention anything about Vedic inerrancy in those. What we find in the Dasamula is the fundamental ideas of CV theology based on works of the Sanatana, Rupa, Jiva and others. These they developed through their own studies of and reflections on the main texts of the Vaisnava tradition (largely the Bhagavata Purana, and for Rupa the literary critical works on rasa that were available to him). When Jiva expresses his doctrine of Acintya-bhedAbheda he is expressing his own view arrived at after careful study and reflection on all the sources of knowledge available to him, not Mahaprabhu's view. I know I am going to get into deep shit with the IGM know-nothings and even the traditional CV automatrons who believe everything that comes down the pike without slightest indication of having a living brain with sparking synapses between their ears, but, hey, I'm already in deep shit with just about everybody, anyway. The perpetrator of this fraud is Krsnadas Kaviraja who portrays the Goswamis as having learned everything they know from Mahaprabhu. The conversations he manufactured in his Cc were just opportunities to present brief summaries of the major works and thoughts of the Goswamis, not accounts of actual meetings in which Mahaprabhu taught them everything they knew. Presenting their works in that way was also a sure-fire way of getting the works of the Goswamis accepted as authentic by the Caitanya bhaktas of Bengal. The Dasamula is really based on the mature thinking of the intellectuals of the era who tried to make sense of the ecstatic life and experiences of Mahaprabhu. Therefore, it stands apart from the other works we talked about including in this book, coming as it does after the end of the creative period of CV philosophical development. To claim, as Bhaktivinode does, that the Dasamula is the teaching of Mahaprabhu is deceitful. It is actually the teaching that gradually became the main lines of thought of the CV tradition as it developed after Mahaprabhu's departure, through the brilliant and sensitive reflections and writings of the Goswamis and their followers (Radhakrsna Goswami, Visvanatha Cakravartin, the descendants of Gopala Bhatta Goswami, and numerous others whose names are less known or have been forgotten like Radhamohana Goswami). It is valuable because of this, not because of any direct connection with Sri Caitanya. Whether anyone else buys this interpretation or not, doesn't really matter to me. It makes more sense to me than the alternative and fits better the historical details of the development of CV over the last five centuries. Well, I concur with that from my own reading, though it has taken time. Was just chatting with a friend yesterday about how even Siksastakam is not in the form of Siksa, I mean there is no prescription or prohibition or any teaching at all, aside from the advice about being beneath a blade of grass. Also, in regard to Dasamula, it would seem that is more reliant on CC rather than Rupa, Santana and Jiva directly. But I do like it as systematic development and as an exercise in reducing and expanding ideas and concepts. I've often read that all poets are liars. Hahaha, In so far as they want conjure and charm which may have an element of deception. Like as if things that are not idealised and exaggerated do not generate interest in the audience. But, as is evident, my thoughts are not clear and coherent, or I am unable to articulate in a satisfactory manner, yet. One might suppose that the Goswamis would have used the Padma or the Brahma Vaivarta for establishing their doctrine, but it seems that, perhaps because it is generally known that Caitanya himself apparently prefered the Bhagavat, and hence it was necessary to base doctrine on the Bhagavata, and in doing so have been compelled to make some interpretive sleight of hand. Reading the Bhagavat without doctrinal annotations, I think is the best because it is self explanatory, and sometimes the comments are quite incongruous with the context, unnecessarily prolix, and perhaps misleading, at least from the author's intention. But my favorite saying these days is Montaigne's motto, What do I know? “Que sçais-je?"
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Post by JD33 on Jul 27, 2020 2:06:59 GMT -6
Nitai-Gaur, Radhey-Shyam; Hare Krsna, Hare Ram.
Nitai Dass Ji - I do not see any links to CV Das Mul anywhere.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 27, 2020 13:03:02 GMT -6
Nitai-Gaur, Radhey-Shyam; Hare Krsna, Hare Ram. Nitai Dass Ji - I do not see any links to CV Das Mul anywhere. Jagadish das babaji-- you can find the Upadesamrta file here.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 27, 2020 13:50:02 GMT -6
Madanmohandasji, I think the Siksastaka falls well within the Upadesa category of texts, but perhaps in much subtler ways. Sankirtan is praised for all the ways it can transform and purify its practitioners. No where does Mahaprabhu say "you must practice this," but the implication is there and strong. I see the Siksastaka as a guide to practice from the point of view of the mental states one is likely to encounter as a result of engaging in Nama-kirtana and Nama-japa. The sense of humility and willingness to tolerate all others demonstrated in verse 3. The loss of all desire for liberation in verse 4. The sense of surrender to the Lord, a kind of return to or realization of one's svarupa, in verse 5. The arise of the asta-vikara in verse 6. The intense experience of separation in verse 7. And finally the willingness to accept Krsna's response to one whatever it may be, trampling one down or embracing one in verse 8. Neither one is preferred over the other. One is left in a completely self-less state of love in which either response from Krsna is accepted and embraced. This is, in a sense, a poetic, photographic journey from the beginning stages to the final stage of the experience of complete fullness of love. It is definitely instructive, but not in the sense of containing injunctions like "do this," "don't do that." There is some of that implied instruction in Rupa's Upadesas also. Direction by implication. Mahaprabhu's siksa-s call to mind similar works by mystics of other traditions like Teresa of Avila in her work The Interior Castle in Christianity, or The Cloud of Unknowing of St. John of the Cross. One might even invoke the name of Meister Eckhart here, all of whom went on and left beautiful accounts of mystical journeys.
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 27, 2020 15:55:44 GMT -6
Do you still want to include the Siksastaka in this book? If so, what would you like to call the book?
UpadezAvalI -- Series of Instructions
Upadeza-mAlA -- Garland of Instruction
Upadeza-sAra -- Essence of Instruction
Or, something else of your choosing.
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Post by madanmohandas on Jul 27, 2020 17:30:28 GMT -6
Madanmohandasji, I think the Siksastaka falls well within the Upadesa category of texts, but perhaps in much subtler ways. Sankirtan is praised for all the ways it can transform and purify its practitioners. No where does Mahaprabhu say "you must practice this," but the implication is there and strong. I see the Siksastaka as a guide to practice from the point of view of the mental states one is likely to encounter as a result of engaging in Nama-kirtana and Nama-japa. The sense of humility and willingness to tolerate all others demonstrated in verse 3. The loss of all desire for liberation in verse 4. The sense of surrender to the Lord, a kind of return to or realization of one's svarupa, in verse 5. The arise of the asta-vikara in verse 6. The intense experience of separation in verse 7. And finally the willingness to accept Krsna's response to one whatever it may be, trampling one down or embracing one in verse 8. Neither one is preferred over the other. One is left in a completely self-less state of love in which either response from Krsna is accepted and embraced. This is, in a sense, a poetic, photographic journey from the beginning stages to the final stage of the experience of complete fullness of love. It is definitely instructive, but not in the sense of containing injunctions like "do this," "don't do that." There is some of that implied instruction in Rupa's Upadesas also. Direction by implication. Mahaprabhu's siksa-s call to mind similar works by mystics of other traditions like Teresa of Avila in her work The Interior Castle in Christianity, or The Cloud of Unknowing of St. John of the Cross. One might even invoke the name of Meister Eckhart here, all of whom went on and left beautiful accounts of mystical journeys. Right on. I might check those authors. Indeed there is instruction, but I wonder whether that was the intention in the composition, since they are verses among other similar verses in context with the themes laid out in the Padyavali. You could also add the above to the book.
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Post by madanmohandas on Jul 27, 2020 17:35:06 GMT -6
Do you still want to include the Siksastaka in this book? If so, what would you like to call the book? UpadezAvalI -- Series of Instructions Upadeza-mAlA -- Garland of Instruction Upadeza-sAra -- Essence of Instruction Or, something else of your choosing. Absolutely, it was just an idle observation about Siksastaka. Perhaps Upadeza-sAra? (it has a little alliteration)
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 27, 2020 18:19:23 GMT -6
Madanmohandasji, I think the Siksastaka falls well within the Upadesa category of texts, but perhaps in much subtler ways. Sankirtan is praised for all the ways it can transform and purify its practitioners. No where does Mahaprabhu say "you must practice this," but the implication is there and strong. I see the Siksastaka as a guide to practice from the point of view of the mental states one is likely to encounter as a result of engaging in Nama-kirtana and Nama-japa. The sense of humility and willingness to tolerate all others demonstrated in verse 3. The loss of all desire for liberation in verse 4. The sense of surrender to the Lord, a kind of return to or realization of one's svarupa, in verse 5. The arise of the asta-vikara in verse 6. The intense experience of separation in verse 7. And finally the willingness to accept Krsna's response to one whatever it may be, trampling one down or embracing one in verse 8. Neither one is preferred over the other. One is left in a completely self-less state of love in which either response from Krsna is accepted and embraced. This is, in a sense, a poetic, photographic journey from the beginning stages to the final stage of the experience of complete fullness of love. It is definitely instructive, but not in the sense of containing injunctions like "do this," "don't do that." There is some of that implied instruction in Rupa's Upadesas also. Direction by implication. Mahaprabhu's siksa-s call to mind similar works by mystics of other traditions like Teresa of Avila in her work The Interior Castle in Christianity, or The Cloud of Unknowing of St. John of the Cross. One might even invoke the name of Meister Eckhart here, all of whom went on and left beautiful accounts of mystical journeys. Right on. I might check those authors. Indeed there is instruction, but I wonder whether that was the intention in the composition, since they are verses among other similar verses in context with the themes laid out in the Padyavali. You could also add the above to the book. Yes, you are right. They might not have been composed as a group or even in that sequence. There is a small chance that they are not even by Mahaprabhu, though I suspect Rupa identified them on good evidence, I think I checked once and confirmed that they appear in Rupa's PadAvali in that order, but certainly interspersed among other verses. Krsnadas Kaviraja certainly presented them as a group and in that order. That probably represents the consensus of Vraja bhaktas at the time. So, we will call it Upadesa-sara. I will start making that change and adding the Siksastaka to the book. I would recommend perhaps adding the Adau zraddhA verse from Rupa's Brs in support of the first verse since you mentioned stages there. I am pretty sure I see how that would work. Sadhana-bhakti=cetodarpana + bhavamahAdAvA up to anartha-nivRtti and Asakti; bhAva-bhakti = zreyaH kairava; prema-bhakti = vidyAvadhU; darzana = AnandAmbudhi; and adhiruddha-mahAbhAva = pratipadam and sarvAtma-svapanam. What do you think?
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Post by madanmohandas on Jul 27, 2020 18:41:20 GMT -6
"I would recommend perhaps adding the Adau zraddhA verse from Rupa's Brs in support of the first verse since you mentioned stages there. I am pretty sure I see how that would work. Sadhana-bhakti=cetodarpana + bhavamahAdAvA up to anartha-nivRtti and Asakti; bhAva-bhakti = zreyaH kairava; prema-bhakti = vidyAvadhU; darzana = AnandAmbudhi; and adhiruddha-mahAbhAva = pratipadam and sarvAtma-svapanam. What do you think?"
I will attend to that and see what can be done.
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Post by madanmohandas on Jul 27, 2020 19:16:05 GMT -6
You will notice I have added adau sraddha...... I was also wondering if it might be a good idea to have the main verses in bold or slightly larger typeface to draw a more conspicuous distinction between the text proper and the notes and quotes?
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Post by Nitaidas on Jul 28, 2020 11:52:53 GMT -6
You will notice I have added adau sraddha...... I was also wondering if it might be a good idea to have the main verses in bold or slightly larger typeface to draw a more conspicuous distinction between the text proper and the notes and quotes? Good idea, Madanmohandasji. They do need to be set off from the supporting quotations. I will probably put them in bold and see how that works. I am typesetting the Siksastaka at present and may have some suggestions for accompanying quotations for some of the less supported verses. I have a commentary on the Siksastaka that offers some interesting quotations from Sanatana's BRhad-bhAgavatAmRtam which sadly tends to get overlooked when discussing Caitanyite teaching and philosophy. In my view the Bba is where it all starts and should have a more conspicuous role in understanding the evolution of the works of Rupa and Jiva, and indeed what we have come to understand as CV philosophy. Everyone has been so dazzled by Rupa that they have forgotten his older brother and guru. I will post the part of the typeset text later today, so you can see how it is progressing.
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