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Post by narottamadasa on Apr 13, 2020 5:42:59 GMT -6
Dear Narottama Dasji, Radhe Radhe! Yes, apasiddhanta = aparadha because again, if I'm consciously preaching/teaching apasiddhanta in the name of siddhanta, which is what 'Siddhanta' Sarasvati did, then that is acting against the guru/acharyas in the form of sastras and is thus Nama aparadha. Does that make sense? राधे राधे! Dear Nila Madhava Dada, Thank you for your response. If we accept your premise according to which an apasiddhanta is considered to be an aparadha, how shall we treat Christians who do not accept Vaisnava theology and philosophy? Shall we consider them as aparadhis but who have a lesser responsibility for this aparadha due to their ignorance of CV texts? Is there a list of strong philosophical deviations done by BSST which could corroborate your premise? Without taking into consideration Bhaktivedanta Swami's books, which is a different issue. Sannyasa? Upavita-samskara performed for those who are not born in dvijas' families. Ontologically speaking, where is the limit between an apasiddhantic act and an improvement/innovation done by a Vaisnava? For instance, do we know that Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana had received siddha-pranali from their guru? And yet siddha-pranali is given by some traditional Vaisnavas as a part of initiation. Moreover, Sri Narottama dasa Thakura Mahasaya was the first non-brahmana Vaisnava to give diksa to brahmanas. This is an exception, indeed, and yet it became very well practiced by many Gaudia Vaisnavas. I am afraid this topic goes outside the boundaries of the thread, let me know if I have to delete my messages in order not to create an unwanted amalgam here. Jaya Śrī Rādhe! |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Apr 13, 2020 6:45:41 GMT -6
Hi, Nitai राधे राधे You reminded me I saw that Jagadananda Das said something a few years ago in relation to this in this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnSjK8c94MwIn short, he says that it was in Bhaktivedanta Swami's last will, although the GBC considered it more of a formality, so the assignment was given to him after his disappearance to go and make donations to different traditional temples and asrams, as well as to those of his godbrothers, and to offer apologies for offences committed during his preaching. That's how he first met Sri Lalita Prasad Thakur. The response of the Vaisnavas is what you would expect from them. Radhe Radhe! I heard the same that was assigned to one disciple to do in the Vraj area as well. |
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Apr 14, 2020 5:05:24 GMT -6
Dear Nila Madhava Dada, Thank you for your response. If we accept your premise according to which an apasiddhanta is considered to be an aparadha, how shall we treat Christians who do not accept Vaisnava theology and philosophy? Shall we consider them as aparadhis but who have a lesser responsibility for this aparadha due to their ignorance of CV texts? Is there a list of strong philosophical deviations done by BSST which could corroborate your premise? Without taking into consideration Bhaktivedanta Swami's books, which is a different issue. Sannyasa? Upavita-samskara performed for those who are not born in dvijas' families. Ontologically speaking, where is the limit between an apasiddhantic act and an improvement/innovation done by a Vaisnava? For instance, do we know that Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana had received siddha-pranali from their guru? And yet siddha-pranali is given by some traditional Vaisnavas as a part of initiation. Moreover, Sri Narottama dasa Thakura Mahasaya was the first non-brahmana Vaisnava to give diksa to brahmanas. This is an exception, indeed, and yet it become very well practiced by many Gaudia Vaisnavas. I am afraid this topic go outside the boundaries of the thread, let me know if I have to delete my messages in order not to create an unwanted amalgam here. Jaya Śrī Rādhe! Radhe Radhe Narottama dasji! No need to worry about going outside the boundaries of the thread and definitely no need to delete anything. This is an important topic. Let's continue this topic in the thread I just created, called ' True History of IGM'. I'll try to move all these posts to that thread eventually so that this one can be specifically for the booklist. The thing we should all keep in mind is to try to stay on topic within the thread we're in and if it brings up another topic we can start a new thread or find an existing thread on the same topic to add onto or continue. How does that sound? जय श्री राधे! |
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Post by narottamadasa on Apr 15, 2020 10:03:50 GMT -6
Dear Nila Madhava Dada, Thank you for your response. If we accept your premise according to which an apasiddhanta is considered to be an aparadha, how shall we treat Christians who do not accept Vaisnava theology and philosophy? Shall we consider them as aparadhis but who have a lesser responsibility for this aparadha due to their ignorance of CV texts? Is there a list of strong philosophical deviations done by BSST which could corroborate your premise? Without taking into consideration Bhaktivedanta Swami's books, which is a different issue. Sannyasa? Upavita-samskara performed for those who are not born in dvijas' families. Ontologically speaking, where is the limit between an apasiddhantic act and an improvement/innovation done by a Vaisnava? For instance, do we know that Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana had received siddha-pranali from their guru? And yet siddha-pranali is given by some traditional Vaisnavas as a part of initiation. Moreover, Sri Narottama dasa Thakura Mahasaya was the first non-brahmana Vaisnava to give diksa to brahmanas. This is an exception, indeed, and yet it become very well practiced by many Gaudia Vaisnavas. I am afraid this topic go outside the boundaries of the thread, let me know if I have to delete my messages in order not to create an unwanted amalgam here. Jaya Śrī Rādhe! Radhe Radhe Narottama dasji! No need to worry about going outside the boundaries of the thread and definitely no need to delete anything. This is an important topic. Let's continue this topic in the thread I just created, called ' True History of IGM'. I'll try to move all these posts to that thread eventually so that this one can be specifically for the booklist. The thing we should all keep in mind is to try to stay on topic within the thread we're in and if it brings up another topic we can start a new thread or find an existing thread on the same topic to add onto or continue. How does that sound? जय श्री राधे! Dear Nila Madhava Ji, Thank you so much. Of course, this sounds perfectly well. I have not understood all the functionalities of the forum yet, but will from now on create separate threads for different topics. Jaya Sri Radhe! |
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Post by narottamadasa on May 19, 2020 11:51:06 GMT -6
Venerable members of the forum,
Namo namah.
The legend goes that Caitanya Vaisnavism was deteriorating in the 18th and especially 19th century, in particular due to the British reign in India. This legend is usually related not in the context of theological and philosophical history, but in the context of IGM foundation. Hence, I wanted to know if there were some unbiased works done in this regard: some history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism starting from 17th century up to the appearance of the bhadraloka in Calcutta, etc. I managed to find "Hinduism in the Modern World" by Brian A. Hatcher as well as Edwin Bryant's (Advaita Prabhu Das) "The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant". Yet, I think it is not sufficient for a larger perception of the subject matter.
जय श्री राधे श्याम!
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Post by Nitaidas on May 20, 2020 10:44:20 GMT -6
Venerable members of the forum, Namo namah. The legend goes that Caitanya Vaisnavism was deteriorating in the 18th and especially 19th century, in particular due to the British reign in India. This legend is usually related not in the context of theological and philosophical history, but in the context of IGM foundation. Hence, I wanted to know if there were some unbiased works done in this regard: some history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism starting from 17th century up to the appearance of the bhadraloka in Calcutta, etc. I managed to find "Hinduism in the Modern World" by Brian A. Hatcher as well as Edwin Bryant's (Advaita Prabhu Das) "The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant". Yet, I think it is not sufficient for a larger perception of the subject matter. जय श्री राधे श्याम! राधे राधे ! Greetings Narottamadasji. Thanks for raising this issue. The myth created and spread by the "bhakti-thises" and the "bhakti-thats" is a complete fiction. There was no decline in CV and the British had nothing to do with it. If anything the Christian challenge to native religious traditions in India provoked a response and a renaissance in those religions. Witness the rise of the Arya-samaj and the Brahmo-samaj. It was no different in the older religious tradition like CV and Saivism and so forth. With the coming of the press to India there was an explosion of Vaisnava Journals, monthly and periodic. One of my classmates at grad school did some research on these journals and gathered information on hundreds of them from roughly the 1880s to well into the 20th century. In addition, beginning in the 1870s-80s the whole canon of CV works began to be published periodically beginning with Ramanarayana Vidyaratna's publications from Murshidabad, then Shyamlal Goswami's publications from 1890 to 1905, then S, K, Ghosh's works from 1892 to 1922, then Nityasvarup Brahmacari's series of CV works from Vraja from 1900 to 1915, and then Krsnadas Baba's series from 1930 to 1950, then Puridas's excellent editions of the CV classices from 1945 to 1955, Haridas Das's series from about the same time, then Haridas Sastri's series from 1970s to 1990s. Wave after wave of CV editions, translations and independent works almost up to the present day and none of these efforts had anything to do with the Bhakti-whatsits. The IGM specialty was stealing the works of others and claiming them as their own. Even today I see it going on. I recently looked up Vanamali Das Sastri's works on Archive.org and there was his Gopala-campu. I met Vanamali Das Sastri years ago. He spoke to me only in Sanskrit. He produced superb editions of the GC and the Ananda-vrndavana-campu in Devanagari and Hindi. Now I see that someone has posted Vanamali's work, but as if it were done by GM with a supposed introduction (in Sanskrit no less) by Bhaktisiddhanta and some other Bhakti-this-or-that. They have pirated his work and are trying to present it as their own. It is an absolute shame how perverted the IGM have made the tradition. Anyway, you have asked for books. My recommendation for a good history of the period in question is the work of Ramakanta Chakrabarty entitled Vaisnavism in Bengal 1486-1900. I don't know how available it is these days. My copy was published in 1985. If it cannot be found I will scan some portions and post them. There are many works by Bengali scholars mostly in Bengali, however. One such title is Baghnapara-sampradaya o Vasinava-sahitya (The Vaisnava Community of Baghnapara and Vaisnava Literature) by Kananbihari Goswami. It is primarily about the Goswami community in Baghnapara and the literature they produced over the centuries. There are others that I will post later, work done by good, careful scholars on the real history of CV. |
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Post by Īśvaradāsa on May 20, 2020 11:22:06 GMT -6
Venerable members of the forum, Namo namah. The legend goes that Caitanya Vaisnavism was deteriorating in the 18th and especially 19th century, in particular due to the British reign in India. This legend is usually related not in the context of theological and philosophical history, but in the context of IGM foundation. Hence, I wanted to know if there were some unbiased works done in this regard: some history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism starting from 17th century up to the appearance of the bhadraloka in Calcutta, etc. I managed to find "Hinduism in the Modern World" by Brian A. Hatcher as well as Edwin Bryant's (Advaita Prabhu Das) "The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant". Yet, I think it is not sufficient for a larger perception of the subject matter. जय श्री राधे श्याम! Hi, Narottamadasji Radhe Radhe! I haven't been able to find the book Nitai Das recommends online for download, but that would be my first pick as well. But anyway, there are a couple of articles that come to mind in this connection, though perhaps not specifically about the issue you raise they do touch on the matter of Western impact on Bengal's bhakti culture: Varuni Bhatia's "Sisir's Tears: Bhakti and Belonging in Colonial Bengal" published by the international Journal of Hindu Studies in 2017. And Lucien Wong's "Against Vaisnava Deviance: Brahminical and Bhadralok Alliances in Bengal", published on MDPI in 2017 .Another interesting one is by Eben Graves, called: "Kirtan's downfall: The Sadhaka Kirtaniya, Cultural Nationalism and Gender in Early Twentieth-century Bengal", published by the International Journal of Hindu Studies in 2017. |
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Post by narottamadasa on May 21, 2020 6:23:31 GMT -6
Venerable members of the forum, Namo namah. The legend goes that Caitanya Vaisnavism was deteriorating in the 18th and especially 19th century, in particular due to the British reign in India. This legend is usually related not in the context of theological and philosophical history, but in the context of IGM foundation. Hence, I wanted to know if there were some unbiased works done in this regard: some history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism starting from 17th century up to the appearance of the bhadraloka in Calcutta, etc. I managed to find "Hinduism in the Modern World" by Brian A. Hatcher as well as Edwin Bryant's (Advaita Prabhu Das) "The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant". Yet, I think it is not sufficient for a larger perception of the subject matter. जय श्री राधे श्याम! राधे राधे ! Greetings Narottamadasji. Thanks for raising this issue. The myth created and spread by the "bhakti-thises" and the "bhakti-thats" is a complete fiction. There was no decline in CV and the British had nothing to do with it. If anything the Christian challenge to native religious traditions in India provoked a response and a renaissance in those religions. Witness the rise of the Arya-samaj and the Brahmo-samaj. It was no different in the older religious tradition like CV and Saivism and so forth. With the coming of the press to India there was an explosion of Vaisnava Journals, monthly and periodic. One of my classmates at grad school did some research on these journals and gathered information on hundreds of them from roughly the 1880s to well into the 20th century. In addition, beginning in the 1870s-80s the whole canon of CV works began to be published periodically beginning with Ramanarayana Vidyaratna's publications from Murshidabad, then Shyamlal Goswami's publications from 1890 to 1905, then S, K, Ghosh's works from 1892 to 1922, then Nityasvarup Brahmacari's series of CV works from Vraja from 1900 to 1915, and then Krsnadas Baba's series from 1930 to 1950, then Puridas's excellent editions of the CV classices from 1945 to 1955, Haridas Das's series from about the same time, then Haridas Sastri's series from 1970s to 1990s. Wave after wave of CV editions, translations and independent works almost up to the present day and none of these efforts had anything to do with the Bhakti-whatsits. The IGM specialty was stealing the works of others and claiming them as their own. Even today I see it going on. I recently looked up Vanamali Das Sastri's works on Archive.org and there was his Gopala-campu. I met Vanamali Das Sastri years ago. He spoke to me only in Sanskrit. He produced superb editions of the GC and the Ananda-vrndavana-campu in Devanagari and Hindi. Now I see that someone has posted Vanamali's work, but as if it were done by GM with a supposed introduction (in Sanskrit no less) by Bhaktisiddhanta and some other Bhakti-this-or-that. They have pirated his work and are trying to present it as their own. It is an absolute shame how perverted the IGM have made the tradition. Anyway, you have asked for books. My recommendation for a good history of the period in question is the work of Ramakanta Chakrabarty entitled Vaisnavism in Bengal 1486-1900. I don't know how available it is these days. My copy was published in 1985. If it cannot be found I will scan some portions and post them. There are many works by Bengali scholars mostly in Bengali, however. One such title is Baghnapara-sampradaya o Vasinava-sahitya (The Vaisnava Community of Baghnapara and Vaisnava Literature) by Kananbihari Goswami. It is primarily about the Goswami community in Baghnapara and the literature they produced over the centuries. There are others that I will post later, work done by good, careful scholars on the real history of CV. नितै दादाजी नमो ऽस्तु ते Thank you for this precise and convincing account of your own experience of CV's development outside the neo-gaudiya institutions. It is as valuable as academic/historical accounts you are referring to. Our perception is indeed limited to the results achieved by IGM and whatever research is done (at least on the Internet), whether related to practitioners, songs or books, one will necessarily face works done by followers of Bhaktivinoda-dhara (or Bhaktivinoda-parivara as some practitioners prefer to say). For such blessed persons as you are, it is not a problem since they have a direct access to granthas and bhagavatas, otherwise mythology goes side by side with reality, and an extra effort is required in order to get a different perspective on the question. Ramakanta Chakrabarty's thesis is available at the national library of France, so I will consult it the next time I go there, otherwise it seems difficult to find anywhere else. There is another intriguing title Legacy of Vaisnavism in Colonial Bengal : Beyond the Renaissance, but I have already one book written by Ferdinando Sardella entitled Modern Hindu personalism: The History, Life, and Thought of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, I suppose that the author has some relation to ISKCON, although the approach is rather serious and academically strong. जय श्री राधे श्याम! |
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Post by narottamadasa on May 21, 2020 6:28:24 GMT -6
Venerable members of the forum, Namo namah. The legend goes that Caitanya Vaisnavism was deteriorating in the 18th and especially 19th century, in particular due to the British reign in India. This legend is usually related not in the context of theological and philosophical history, but in the context of IGM foundation. Hence, I wanted to know if there were some unbiased works done in this regard: some history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism starting from 17th century up to the appearance of the bhadraloka in Calcutta, etc. I managed to find "Hinduism in the Modern World" by Brian A. Hatcher as well as Edwin Bryant's (Advaita Prabhu Das) "The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant". Yet, I think it is not sufficient for a larger perception of the subject matter. जय श्री राधे श्याम! Hi, Narottamadasji Radhe Radhe! I haven't been able to find the book Nitai Das recommends online for download, but that would be my first pick as well. But anyway, there are a couple of articles that come to mind in this connection, though perhaps not specifically about the issue you raise they do touch on the matter of Western impact on Bengal's bhakti culture: Varuni Bhatia's "Sisir's Tears: Bhakti and Belonging in Colonial Bengal" published by the international Journal of Hindu Studies in 2017. And Lucien Wong's "Against Vaisnava Deviance: Brahminical and Bhadralok Alliances in Bengal", published on MDPI in 2017 .Another interesting one is by Eben Graves, called: "Kirtan's downfall: The Sadhaka Kirtaniya, Cultural Nationalism and Gender in Early Twentieth-century Bengal", published by the International Journal of Hindu Studies in 2017. Dear Eduardo Dada, Namo namah. Thank you for the articles! Indeed, I was not searching only for books, but for any written text related tot he topic. Hence, any article is valuable. Although Bhatia's article does not seem to be available on the Internet, I will try to get it through my University's access. And there is also Bhatia's Unforgetting Chaitanya: Vaishnavism and Cultures of Devotion in Colonial Bengal partially available on Google Books. Probably it also contains some information in this regard. Jaya Sri Radhe! |
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Post by Īśvaradāsa on May 21, 2020 12:16:21 GMT -6
Hi, Narottamadasji Radhe Radhe! I haven't been able to find the book Nitai Das recommends online for download, but that would be my first pick as well. But anyway, there are a couple of articles that come to mind in this connection, though perhaps not specifically about the issue you raise they do touch on the matter of Western impact on Bengal's bhakti culture: Varuni Bhatia's "Sisir's Tears: Bhakti and Belonging in Colonial Bengal" published by the international Journal of Hindu Studies in 2017. And Lucien Wong's "Against Vaisnava Deviance: Brahminical and Bhadralok Alliances in Bengal", published on MDPI in 2017 .Another interesting one is by Eben Graves, called: "Kirtan's downfall: The Sadhaka Kirtaniya, Cultural Nationalism and Gender in Early Twentieth-century Bengal", published by the International Journal of Hindu Studies in 2017. Dear Eduardo Dada, Namo namah. Thank you for the articles! Indeed, I was not searching only for books, but for any written text related tot he topic. Hence, any article is valuable. Although Bhatia's article does not seem to be available on the Internet, I will try to get it through my University's access. And there is also Bhatia's Unforgetting Chaitanya: Vaishnavism and Cultures of Devotion in Colonial Bengal partially available on Google Books. Probably it also contains some information in this regard. Jaya Sri Radhe! Hi, Narottamadasji Radhe Radhe! Yes, I think so too, I read a review of her book and I've been wanting to read it for a while, unfortunately I can't seem to find it, I do have her introduction but that's about it, I'm attaching that to this post: Bhatia V.Unforgetting_Chaitanya_Vaishnavism....pdf (524.87 KB) I'm also attaching her full article: Bhatia V. Sisirs_Tears_Bhakti_and_Belonging....pdf (484.43 KB) Perhaps the one that's more related to the matters you raise is Wong's, I think it does a fair job at presenting a sample on the history of the discourse about "deviance" and the relation between the traditional representatives of CV and the Bhadralok at the time. Jay Radhe! |
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Post by Nitaidas on May 21, 2020 22:47:26 GMT -6
राधे राधे I have scanned part of a chapter from Vaisnavism in Bengal specifically on the situation in the 19th century. There looks to be a few other chapters that deal more directly with British influence and reactions to that in Bengal among CV followers. What is clear from this chapter is that CV was quite popular. By some estimates one-fifth of the population of Bengal was Vaisnava in the first quarter of the 19th century. Kedarnath Dutta is also present in this description, but he is clearly not alone. I will post more later. You can access the scan here. |
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Post by Dauji Dau Dayal das on Jun 15, 2020 13:10:30 GMT -6
Jay Nitai! Nitai das,
Narottam has drawn my attention to your website. I met Swamiji in 1973 in London, became active devotee in Iskcon 15 years later, spent 12 years in Iskcon, moved on to Narayan Maharaja's Gaudiya Math in 2000, left his splintered sanga in 2012 and bumped into Premgopal Goswami of the Nityananda Vamśa in 2013 and have been following the pure line since. I keep busy by editing, compiling and publishing bhakti books (you can see them on Amazon.com/Dauji Dau Dayal Das). I have compiled the Sri Ślokamritam under Narayan Mj (first published in 2006), and now I publish books of the harikatha of Premgopal Goswami under the cover name Bhakti Books. I can make the PDF files of these books (about a dozen or so) available for free to anyone interested and can send them to you to add to your online library if you have one.
At present I am editing Nityananda Vamśa Vistar. I am not a scholar and I don't know Bengali or Sanskrit so I have to rely on someone else's translation. Sort of mission impossible, but Premgopal wants it published in English for the English speaking world. Can you tell me anything about this book?
I have also written an essay, 'Tradition and Transformation in Vaiṣnavism'. It's a subjective and personal account of my experience and reflections on the topic rather than academic
paper, but if you like I can post it here or send it to you to look at.
Hope this finds you well and happy,
Radhe Radhe.
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Post by Dauji (Dau Dayal das) on Jun 15, 2020 13:29:24 GMT -6
Jay Nitai! Dear Nitai das, Narottam has drawn my attention to your website. Here are a few details about me. I met Swamiji in 1973 in London, became active devotee in Iskcon 15 years later, spent 12 years in Iskcon, moved on to Narayan Maharaja's Gaudiya Math in 2000, left his splintered sanga in 2012 and bumped into Premgopal Goswami of the Nityananda Vamśa in 2013. I have been following the pure line since. I keep busy by editing, compiling and publishing bhakti books (you can see them on Amazon.com/Dauji Dau Dayal Das). I have compiled the Sri Ślokamritam under Narayan Mj (first published in 2006), and now I publish books of the harikatha of Premgopal Goswami under the cover name Bhakti Books. I can make the PDF files of these books (about a dozen or so) available for free to anyone interested and can send them to you to add to your online library if you have one. At present I am editing Nityananda Vamśa Vistar. I am not a scholar and I don't know Bengali or Sanskrit so I have to rely on someone else's translation. Sort of mission impossible, but Premgopal wants it published in English for the English speaking world. Can you tell me anything about this book? I have also written an essay, 'Tradition and Transformation in Vaiṣnavism'. It's a subjective and personal account of my experience and reflections on the topic rather than an academic paper, but if you like I can post it here or send it to you to look at. My email: daudayaldas@gmail.com Hope this finds you well and happy, জয় নিতাই জয় গৌর Radhe Radhe. |
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Post by meeno8 on Jun 15, 2020 16:44:27 GMT -6
Dauji dau dayal das ji: I was not aware of that text. I assume it is in Bengali. I wish I had it handy when I was doing my research for my master's thesis. The one I was using, if memory serves, was Nityananda Vamsa-valli Maybe it was that text you mention though. It was many years ago.
At any rate, can't wait to see it when you are done with the editing.
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Post by Nityānanda dāsa on Jun 16, 2020 3:38:16 GMT -6
Radhe Radhe Dauji Dau Dayal dasji!
Welcome! Can you tell us more about Nityananda Vamsa Vistar? It sounds like it is a book about the spreading of the lineage of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Is that correct? Any chance you have a digital copy of the Bengali edition that you could share?
Jai Nitai! Jai Gaur!
Your servant,
Nila Madhava das
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