|
Post by Nitaidas on Jan 27, 2011 11:40:32 GMT -6
"the identification of kama and prema (which Malatimanjari pointed out just recently in commenting on Jagat's turn to sahaja dharma, though I would certainly like to ask for more clarification from her on this, especially with respect to where BVS claims this" There are several points I would like to point out. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on Sahajiya philosophy, and these points may not apply to all form, but certainly to some of the them. So here are the parallels to ABVS: 1. the living entity is sat-cit-ananda 2. bhakti or prema is dormant in the living enity (this can already be found in Bhaktivinode Thakur's writings). The very term 'sahaja' means The term 'sahaja’ is means 'inborn or which one is born with' 2. The difference kama and prema lies only in the mode of action, that means in form but not in essence. It depends how you use it. If the kama is expressed in a pure manner it is prema. When prema becomes polluted, it is kama. ACBSP in Krishna book: "This Krishna-katha will also be very much appealing to the most materialistic persons because Krishna's pastimes with the gopis (cowherd girls) are exactly like the loving affairs between young girls and boys within this material world. Actually, the sex feeling found in human society is not unnatural, because this same sex feeling is there in the original Personality of Godhead. The pleasure potency is called Srimati Radharani. The attraction of loving affairs on the basis of sex feeling is the original feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we, the conditioned souls, being part and parcel of the Supreme, have such feelings also, but they are experienced within a perverted, minute condition. Therefore, when those who are after sex life in this material world hear about Krishna's pastimes with the gopis, they will relish transcendental pleasure, although it appears to be materialistic." Purport to BG 3.37: "When a living entity comes in contact with the material creation, his eternal love for Krishna is transformed into lust, in association with the mode of passion. Or, in other words, the sense of love of God becomes transformed into lust, as milk in contact with sour tamarind is transformed into yogurt." It is the same principle, kama becomes transformed into prema, but it the same stuff, just perverted. Another problem is that he often explains Krishna's bahiranga sakti to be illusory, which is what Advaitins are claim (brahma satya, jagat mithya). often compares the material world to a dream (purport to SB 1.1.1) ... even though in some places he also says it is real, but temporary. Thanks for the clarification, Malatimanjari. I suspect you are right. I have never noticed this before. I have seen ACBVS being accused, with some justification, of being a mayavadi, the very thing he railed against so much. Perhaps there is a principle hidden here. Find out what someone rails against the most and then look for that view in that person's teaching. Perhaps on some level he realized his views were those of the sahaja or the mayavadi and that was why he had to be so critical of them. I am not so sure, however, that what you have given as the typical view of the Sahajiyas is really their view. Yes, there are many variations in the Sahajiya tradition. There are also some popular presentations of the Sahajiya position that misrepresent them, I am afraid. Bhakti (which in its relished state is called prema) is infused into the faculties of the bhakta at some indeterminable point. Therefore it is called suddha-sattva-visesa by Sri Rupa to distinguish it from what the jiva already has. Thus, it is not already present in us. It is the essence of samvit joined with the essence of hladini (Baladeva). Thus, it is both knowledge and pleasure inseparably linked together. When we are infused with it (in a way that is comparable to being possessed by a deity) we become a source of pleasure for Krsna and that is what draws him to us. The samvit part of bhakti permits us to know him intimately, the way a wife knows her husband (according to Baladeva). Thus it should be clear that kama is not prema, nor is it born with the jiva, though it should be recognized that sometimes the word kama is used for prema in the Bhagavata. Just a quick remark related to my last post on openmind's statement. The Vaisnava Sahajiya tradition has more of a claim to being a sect of CV than does IGM. The early founders of the VS tradition were indeed members of the CV tradition.
|
|
|
Post by openmind on Jan 27, 2011 12:12:54 GMT -6
But don't confuse the two. That's absolutely right, but the enmity on both sides is unnecessary. We have run these circles (I hope this expression exists in English, too) on GD, remember. Sure. I never said it doesn't. All I meant was that there ARE bozos, fakes and dishonest persons in every group, no matter where you go, so it's better to leave illusions ("in the trad lineages nobody falls down, everyone is honest and pure, unlike in the inherently evil IGM", etc.) behind or else you may have to face very disappointing experiences. You had spent a long time in India, I am sure you could tell funny (and not so funny) stories about non-IGM bhaktas, too.
|
|
sita
Full Member
Posts: 106
|
Post by sita on Jan 28, 2011 4:29:03 GMT -6
Jai Gauranga! It was nice to read the quotes from Svami Prabhupada's books, thanks for that. I find most all the discussions on this site very informative, and I also enjoy being part of the discussions which I feel are mostly for the purpose of bringing people together in a spirit of devotion to Sri Sri Guru and Guranga. Of course this would not be possible here without Nitai prabhu's devotion to his forum, so I hope he will over look my passionate opinions from time to time, and I also pray that the so called differences that we are struggling with will will not deter us from fostering the spirit of brother hood. As we are so well aware religion is so often the cause of disharmony and as followers of Lord Caitanya we should be one step ahead of that unfortunate rasa.
" We forget what maha and atma really mean; we forget the greatness of our own souls. Not to know that the world is not real but only the playground of a Joyous Actor; not to know that if we simply hold ourselves in harmony with the Great Player we shall be fore ever happy- not to know this is our ignorance.
The petty differences that we find between one religion and another are merely foolish disputes about words. It is the difference of that which has brought these differences amongst us. But the fact remains, that we are all living in and through One Life. Seek within and you will find this unity."Hari" is the centre of the unity. He is the central Figure of Suddha- Sattwa"-of purity and love, radiating bliss in all directions, through every particle of the great universe. To know Him is the purpose of your life; to realize Him is the nourishment of your life. With this realisation will vanish all struggle and jealousy, all evilfrom the world. Then the earth will become heaven. Instead of throwing bombshells of hatred, instead of projecting currents of jealousy and evil thought, instead of passing our whole life in the economic and political problems of the illusory world, let us take a stand upon the declaration that we are all brothers and sisters. Ye men, Ye women, ye Hindhus, ye Buddhists, ye Christians, ye Mahommedans-all living beings of the world -we are one1 We are brothers. The whole universe with its myriads of suns and moons, and everything that can speak, will cry with one voice- "We are all brothers " From all quarters of the globe, the echo will resound- "We are all brothers"
Taken from Chicago Lectures Spoken by Srimad Mahanambrata Brahmachari M.A.(Sanskrit and Philosophy)
Of course he could speak like that, as he had the whole interest of the world at heart, he was plugged into the divine concept of Maha-Uddharan.
|
|
|
Post by malati on Jan 28, 2011 5:32:46 GMT -6
Now this thread is getting interesting and beneficial!
Thank you for that Sita, Srimad Mahanambarata's writings are always full of wisdom.
My take on the difference between prema and kama.
I have to disagree with the opinion that the difference between prema and kama is in the form only but not in essence.
The very essence of prema is selflessness or the stage in which all one’s endeavours are done soley for the pleasure of Krishna without any desire for one’s own pleasure; or even if pleasure is a side effect it is only in accord with Krishna’s pleasure. Whereas kama is desirous self-interest; a desire that our senses will be satisfied by our beloved for one’s own happiness. Therefore , in my opinion the difference is much more in the essence than in the form. Their essences are the necessity for their distinction.
Flowing from that understanding, I believe that prema is not a “transformed lust”. They are distinct conditions with their respective characteristics.
In our siddhanta the gopis' prema have a playful nature as exemplified in their playful pastimes with Krishna. For this reason some scholars refer to this condition of love as kama (lust). However the gopis’ kama is aprakrta (transcendental) ,and so without a tinge of fault and is always joyful. In comparison kama is full of faults and wavering.
Prema can only be found in srngar rasa with Krishna as exhibited by the gopis of Vraja. Therefore the gopis’ aprakrita’s “kama” is incomparable, it can only be compared to itself.
Thus for the sahajiyas to copy the form (the practice of sambhoga sexual union sadhana) does not guarantee development of prema. In fact because of the very nature of sex in the material world it can become an even more source of entanglement, attachment, self-interest and forgetfulness and misery.
The jiva’s prema arises from samvit (the potency to know intimately ) and hladini (the potency for a blissful relationship). How to get to that potentiality maybe explained by others here.
|
|
|
Post by malatimanjari on Jan 29, 2011 13:59:08 GMT -6
Malati, I am glad that you "disagree with the opinion that the difference between prema and kama is in the form only but not in essence." Frankly, I hope none of us agrees with it. These sahajiya ideas are obviously asiddhanta, but we find such statements also in Srila Prabhupada's books. That was the whole point. I agree with Nitai that we need to be aware of these differences and know the teachings of our acharyas. That doesn't mean that we should create camps and hate each other, it just means that we need to be very clear about our philosophy and our goal, and then just pursue that. And we can still appreciate other Vaishnavas by doing that.
|
|
|
Post by cvsaragrahi on Feb 15, 2011 14:54:58 GMT -6
Greetings,
I took Harinam and Gayatri Diksha from A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami in 1973 & 1975. I left ISKCON in 1983. After that, I read some Gaudiya Math books, then some of Bhaktivinode Thakur. With the internet, I am learning about the history of the Chaitanya Vaishnava Sampradaya, its theology, philosophy and sociology, etc. I recently started to study logic, and have a copy of Gautama's Nyaya. I might attempt sanskrit in the future. At the present moment, I am not connected to any organization nor do I subscribe to anyone's particular interpretation or understanding of anything. I am seeking my own personal realizations with the assistance of shastra, logic, association and sadhana. I am considering the idea of meeting someone like Ananta Das Babaji in person. Due to the internet, I have some of his writings and am also looking at the current Gurus in other branches and seeking dialog with their disciples.
I have concluded that material sex cannot be a transformation of spiritual sex. If eternally conditioned means what it means, the conditioned soul cannot possibly have ever experienced prema, having always been under the jurisdiction of matter, or asleep in Maha Vishnu between breaths. Transformation would mean that prema existed, then was mixed with something else, ie., the mode of passion, to become kama. Since prema is eternal, the transformed identity would still have to be active with its source, but only appearing like kama in the material world. Considering that, Krishna and His Prema would be subject to material affect, which is not possible. My current understanding is that the soul has the eternally existent capacity to experience material sex or spiritual sex. The experience of material sex is imposed by the various structures of the material energy. The experience of spiritual sex is brought to the liberated soul by Lord Krishna and is a distinct characteristic of The Lord. As such, the jiva does not "have" prema as a constituent part of its nature, transformed to kama, then revealed by sadhana cum ragatmika. Rather, as material sex is put upon the soul by material nature, as a perverted replica of spiritual sex, prema is put upon the soul that is eligible to experience it. Prema is not a separate commodity that is taken away from The Lord, it is a characteristic of His, that He shares with the jiva by direct contact. As such, the sahajiya idea of using material sex experience to raise the soul to spiritual sex seems to have no support in terms of this logic. The experience of material energy and spiritual energy are totally separate and so, material experiences could not cause or attract spiritual experiences.
At this point, I don't accept that the Guru is a reservoir of prema who goes around giving it away like a commodity in exchange for absolute surrender and sentimental, codependent adoration. The Guru may be experiencing prema, and be kind enough to instruct a disciple how to experience it via the same path he followed. The guru, having personal experience can help the disciple along the way, pointing out pitfalls, etc. He does not wave a magic wand and "presto" the disciple now has prema.
Also, I don't think the esoteric mystery of direct purified perception and experience of The Lord can be found by reading any amount of shastra or by expert use of logic. My current understanding is that Authority and Logic are assistants to purified direct perception gradually attained by proper sadhana.
The above are some of my current understandings, which I hope to explore and realize more deeply, or change, as my search reveals other aspects, or entirely new ones. Consider me a dry sponge full of active memes of all kinds, obtained from everywhere, endeavoring to remove the inauspicious and derive guidance from the auspicious. I am wide open to anything anyone has to say on any topic.
Thank you Nitai das Prabhu, for setting up this symposium.
With respect and appreciation Prabhupad Das Karapurnam
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on Feb 15, 2011 17:28:34 GMT -6
Greetings Prabhupada Das.
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful introduction of yourself to the symposium. You sound like you have had an interesting and recognizable past and that you are still growing. You have outgrown your IGM skin and have sloughed it off. Good for you. Most of us have been through similar things and I am sure we will all happy to give you whatever help we can from our own experience. It sounds like you have already started to deprogram yourself and unlearn some of the things you learned in IGM. It is a long and slow process, but it is ultimately very rewarding. We have representatives from many of the extant lineages of the mainstream tradition and I am sure they will be happy to discuss their choices and the qualities of their particular sub-communities. There are many fine choices if you wish to be initiated and continue your practice and spiritual development as a part of the mainstream tradition.
I look forward to having your input as we explore various aspects of CV. There are lots of interesting threads scattered around the forum. It is not very well organized, i am afraid, but look around and see what you might find useful here, There are lots of texts in various states of completion. You might find something of interest among them. I even have an introductory text on Nyaya which is one of my loves, too. I will try to complete more of that for you.
Anyway, warmest welcome to the forum.
|
|
|
Post by cvsaragrahi on Feb 16, 2011 10:53:18 GMT -6
Thank you Nitai Das,
I have read Dawkins on memes, and Kuhn on paradigms, Durkheim, Weber, Plato on pure forms, etc., and am in the process of compiling a listing of negative and positive memes in relationship to Chaitanya Vaishnava theology/philosophy and lifestyle. Since I am finding references to memes on various threads here, would you consider opening a thread where memes and their extensions, paradigms, are listed? I am enthused by the idea of the double helix of DNA, to which are attached thousands of genes, which in turn operate to construct the human body. It seems that shastra is a kind of multi-stranded helix, to which are attached memes and paradigms as the code work for revelation of the divine. PDK
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on Feb 17, 2011 10:28:44 GMT -6
Thank you Nitai Das, I have read Dawkins on memes, and Kuhn on paradigms, Durkheim, Weber, Plato on pure forms, etc., and am in the process of compiling a listing of negative and positive memes in relationship to Chaitanya Vaishnava theology/philosophy and lifestyle. Since I am finding references to memes on various threads here, would you consider opening a thread where memes and their extensions, paradigms, are listed? I am enthused by the idea of the double helix of DNA, to which are attached thousands of genes, which in turn operate to construct the human body. It seems that shastra is a kind of multi-stranded helix, to which are attached memes and paradigms as the code work for revelation of the divine. PDK This sounds fascinating. Yes. I am happy to open up a thread for that discussion. Shall do it under Evolution and CV or create a whole new board called Memes and CV? Either way is fine with me. I look forward to seeing what you have come up with.
|
|
|
Post by Ekantin on Feb 20, 2011 7:51:04 GMT -6
That's absolutely right, but the enmity on both sides is unnecessary. We have run these circles (I hope this expression exists in English, too) on GD, remember. Hello my old friend! It is so nice to see you again! I used to be known as 'Gaurasundara' on GD, and I never saw you after you disappeared from GR. I have sometimes wondered what has happened to you. But it is great to see you here again!
|
|
zvs
New Member
Posts: 40
|
Post by zvs on Feb 24, 2011 21:04:08 GMT -6
Hello Nitai and others-- just checking in.
I disappeared from this forum awhile back (1) because I resolved my inner crises re: GV/IGM/etc past and my present and (2) due to the demands of my academic & professional lives. However, I wanted to say hello and plan to see what's going on here from time to time.
Hope all are well.
ZVS
|
|
zvs
New Member
Posts: 40
|
Post by zvs on Feb 24, 2011 22:31:45 GMT -6
Holy goodness, you guys are having some interesting discussions. I don't even care if I don't have a stake in it. This is some good reading!
|
|
|
Post by Nitaidas on Feb 24, 2011 22:45:50 GMT -6
Hi zvs,
Good to see you again. Yes, it has been a long time. I hope you are well and doing well. You mention academic and professional lives. Are you back in school? Professionally are you pursuing your music? Did your album get finished and come out?
Yes, we have been busy. What you see is just the tip of the iceberg. Explore a bit and you will find some of the older conversations. Gerardji and Subrataji and Malatidi are all posting good stuff and so are many of the others. We are exploring the age of the Bhagavata in one thread and have done a good deal on Sri Krishna Prem and others in other threads.
Hope to see you around here more often.
|
|
zvs
New Member
Posts: 40
|
Post by zvs on Feb 24, 2011 23:20:07 GMT -6
You mention academic and professional lives. Are you back in school? Professionally are you pursuing your music? Did your album get finished and come out? Yeah, finally on track with the whole school thing. Various complications held me back in the past, but I should have my B.A. done in about a year, with graduate school to follow. Professionally, I'm currently doing legal research and argument writing for Social Security disability appeals. Music is finally going somewhere--my new band (Northern Beaches) is putting out an album later this year, and I'm also working on a more avant-garde proposition called Fire in the West. but I don't look at any of that as a professional endeavor, it's more like a deep existential need and a joyous indulgence. Particularly nice for me to see Gerard's contributions. I interact with him a bit on G.R., but he holds back his deeper thoughts on there, I think. Mr. Ekantin has occasionally encouraged me to drop by here again and I always enjoy what he has to say, especially because his expertise is so outside my areas of knowledge.
|
|
|
Post by gerard on Feb 25, 2011 8:24:38 GMT -6
Particularly nice for me to see Gerard's contributions. I interact with him a bit on G.R., but he holds back his deeper thoughts on there, I think. Thanks zvs. And you think right. On GR the atmosphere is at times distincly anti-spiritual, and although I am ex-IGM (but at the moment reading Shukavak's biography of Bhaktivinode Thakur) I am not ex-vaishnava.
|
|