CV and Science

[meeno8]

Higgs and Englert share the Nobel Prize for predicting the Higgs Boson (aka 'God' particle).  My brother-in-law's cousin, Joe Incandela, leads the team of particle physicists at CERN that discovered it recently.  When my sister and I were developing software for his father's electrical contracting firm in the late '80s, he mentioned that he had a son that was working under a mountain in Europe.

In one interview Joe said that it was predicted thosands of years ago, but provided no details.  The upanishads came to mind, but not really any of the ancient Greek philosophers.  Still, why would a respected physicist at the largest particle collider in the world stick his neck out (and his reputation) making such a statement to reporters?  I suppose we can only wonder.

When I wanted so seek out a good ayurvedic practitioner in Vrindavan for my allergies, I asked one of my householder gurubhais if he knew of any.  He said, 'Why do you want to go to one of those people instead of a real doctor'.  He was basically saying his opinion of them is that they are all just 'witch doctor' charlatans.  I told him that I had success with one in Bombay a few years prior, who had cured my allergies for over 2 years, until they came back.  Who can say if that was not simply the placebo effect, which has been scientifically proven to work in a lot of cases with people.

[kd91]

Sept 5, 2020 9:39:54 GMT -6 meeno8 said:

Higgs and Englert share the Nobel Prize for predicting the Higgs Boson (aka 'God' particle).  My brother-in-law's cousin, Joe Incandela, leads the team of particle physicists at CERN that discovered it recently.  When my sister and I were developing software for his father's electrical contracting firm in the late '80s, he mentioned that he had a son that was working under a mountain in Europe.

In one interview Joe said that it was predicted thosands of years ago, but provided no details.  The upanishads came to mind, but not really any of the ancient Greek philosophers.  Still, why would a respected physicist at the largest particle collider in the world stick his neck out (and his reputation) making such a statement to reporters?  I suppose we can only wonder.

When I wanted so seek out a good ayurvedic practitioner in Vrindavan for my allergies, I asked one of my householder gurubhais if he knew of any.  He said, 'Why do you want to go to one of those people instead of a real doctor'.  He was basically saying his opinion of them is that they are all just 'witch doctor' charlatans.  I told him that I had success with one in Bombay a few years prior, who had cured my allergies for over 2 years, until they came back.  Who can say if that was not simply the placebo effect, which has been scientifically proven to work in a lot of cases with people.

What sort of allergies, Thakurji? The skin one or cold one?

[meeno8]

At the time, respiratory, as in hayfever and asthma. In more recent years, I have developed finger and eyelid eczema. Thanks for asking. I have been plagued with allergies and asthma since an early age. I have been through 5 year courses of desensitization shots twice, which have helped immensely, although I still have to use steroidal and antihistamine nasal sprays daily to keep the symptoms at bay. My allergist informs me I may still have to go back on those shots on a maintenance basis, and it is difficult to predict due to every patient being unique.

Now, when I was in grad school at University of Chicago, I was going through a Sanskrit text on the navya-nyaya school of logic with Professor Allen Thrasher (Nitaiji would probably know better the approximate century of texts of that school), and there was a very odd description of the mechanism of sight. It was about how the antahkarana goes out to the object of sight to perceive it, rather than our current understanding of light shining upon the retina after being focused there through the lens known as the cornea, to stimulate the rods and cones, which in turn send signals to the vision center of our brains. That is clearly an attempt to explain a phenomenon not really understood at all by the author of the text.

Here is a link about the antahkarana:
www.yogapedia.com/definition/5381/antahkarana

'In Indian philosophy and yoga, antahkarana refers to the internal organ that is the location or inner origin of thought and feeling. The word originates from the Sanskrit antar, meaning “interior” or “within,” and karana, meaning “sense organ” or “cause.” It translates as “the inner cause” or “internal organ.”

It is defined as either the link between the body and the spirit or the bridge between the middle and higher mind. The term may also be defined as the source of thinking, or the mind, soul, heart or conscience.'

[meeno8]

The first atomic bomb was successfully detonated on July 16, 1945, in the Trinity test in New Mexico. Oppenheimer later remarked that it brought to mind words from the Bhagavad Gita: "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."   He, for those who do not know this, was one of the lead physicists on the project, yet he had read some translation of BG.

So, for that reason some Sanskrit texts came to mind with respect to Joe's comment, but that does not rule out some ancient Greek writings.  If I remember correctly, he said over 2000 years ago.  There are many writings in many languages pertaining to science and its history going back millenia.  What we use today is the empirical method, which requires repeatable experiments to yield reproducible results, in order to support or negate any theory or hypothesis.  Am I pointing out the obvious again?  I do have a penchant for doing that, don't I?

Fun fact:
When I was in grad school at University of Chicago, my student apartment was right across the street from campus and only about 200 feet away from the site of the first nuclear sustained reaction (where the university football stadium used to stand). Today there is a sculpture and plaque commemorating that event that changed the course of history.

There is one vivid memory I have from when I was a teenager, in which a fundamental law of physics was violated. It was a typical social setting, in this case a birthday party, and a few other people also experienced the same phenomenon. There is no point in going into the details, just that it was not a 'normal every day' type event. Now, a rational psychologist might assess it as a 'mass hallucination', whereas a devout (irrational?) Catholic might explain it away as angelic (or maybe demonic) intervention. I would not be surprised about mass hallucination theories being put forth (having seen that in the past), but those to me have always been pretty much patently absurd. People do not share brains. Angels and demons? I think all religious traditions generally have some version of those in their hierarchical theologies.

[meeno8]

Colds are actually caused by viruses, not allergies, although symptoms between hayfever and colds are similar. Colds clear up within a few days. Seasonal allergies are for an entire season. And, in my case, the allergies are year round, when they were originally seasonal (spring and fall). I have some mild food allergies, like to bananas for example. I get itching in my mouth and indigestion, but nothing severe like some people who have to be rushed to the emergency room.

[meeno8]

What I see personally is the marriage of CV meditation practices and neurology. The altered states of consciousness of the sadhaka can be verified objectively via fMRI scans and maybe several other means. That could encourage many people to take up our type of sadhana, just as the current trend of people jumping on the mindfullness wagon for their choice in meditation.

[malati]

Oh Meena, I don't really see the need for the marriage of CV meditation practices and neurology. Don't get me wrong, if a neurologist or a scientist gets interested in CV and does some experiment on what's going on in our brains while were doing japa/smaranam, then that's fine by me.

But to aim for CV be defined through the scientific framework is a waste of time in my opinion.

Science is useful, the empirical method is useful. But there are many areas in science that are just assumptions from mathematics. One example is the dark matter/dark energy. They assume the prescence of DM/DE because those are the missing numbers in some mathematical calculations of the nature of this universe. Let scientists fight out the truth of a scientific hypothesis, let's enjoy the bliss of the world of RadhaKrishna.

[meeno8]

Malati: You have read something into my meaning which is not intended by me. As you say, the sciences are their own fields dependent on the empirical method. The evidence that can show the objective reality of the effects on the brain of our meditative practices can support our claims and encourage others to take them up. It is not about defining CV through the scientific framework. It is already clearly defined, and we all know that the sadhana actually works from the subjective side. The objective side is another matter entirely. I hope that clarifies my point.

[meeno8]

I think the main stance we should have is that the empirical method is solid, until a better one comes along (whatever that might be). What does that have to do with CV? Except for potentially the field of neurology, I don't see anything.

[meeno8]

Sept 6, 2020 16:22:19 GMT -6 malati said:

Oh Meena, I don't really see the need for the marriage of CV meditation practices and neurology. Don't get me wrong, if a neurologist or a scientist gets interested in CV and does some experiment on what's going on in our brains while were doing japa/smaranam, then that's fine by me.

But to aim for CV be defined through the scientific framework is a waste of time in my opinion.

Science is useful, the empirical method is useful. But there are many areas in science that are just assumptions from mathematics. One example is the dark matter/dark energy. They assume the prescence of DM/DE because those are the missing numbers in some mathematical calculations of the nature of this universe. Let scientists fight out the truth of a scientific hypothesis, let's enjoy the bliss of the world of RadhaKrishna.

I am reading through a fascinating book, An Epidemic of Absence, which is about the link between eradication of parasitic worms and an increase in autoimmune diseases including IBD and allergies.  This is a global phenomenon.  A case of the cure being far worse than the malady.  We have evolved, but our parasites have evolved right along with us over millions of years.  We provide an environment for them to thrive, i.e. our guts, and they confer many benefits in return.

[meeno8]

We can all benefit from the latest research in longevity and aging (and aging has been proven to be just a disease like any other). For example, I have been taking 1000mg of NMN (nicotinamide mononucleotide) daily, which boosts the sirtuins at the cellular level, which become weak with age, and without them fully functioning cellular repair breaks down. Forget about anti-oxidants though. That hypothesis was overturned 20 years ago, so they are basically snake oil remedies, despite being a multi-billion dollar industry preying on gullible people. NMN costs more than vitamins, but I figure it is worth the extra money to reverse the aging process and be in good health irrespective of how much it will extend my life expectancy.

[meeno8]

The example of jyotish as science/non-science has been brought up on this forum, and partially discussed as well. The ancient Greeks observed the stars and planets (those visible to the naked eye, which are Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn) and meteors (streaking across the sky), and they named the 12 constellations that form the Zodiac - Aries the ram, Gemini the twins, Cancer the crab, Leo the lion, et al. In the middle east and India they came up with the exact same constellations named accordingly (in Sanskrit in India). They did not understand the nature of stars as being distant suns, and the inner planets being rock bodies like earth, and the outer planets of Jupiter and Saturn as being giant gas balls. Until Copernicus in 1515, they thought the earth was the center of the universe and the sun and all other celestial bodies revolved around it (recall the amusing desciption in BP of Surya on his daily sojourn pulling the sun across the sky). Astronomy has come a long way since those early observations by our distant ancestors that had no telescopes. It was not until navigation at sea required more precision that the astrolabe was invented to use right ascension and declination to triangulate the position by stars. Today we have something even more precise using satellites in orbit, called GPS (global positioning system) in our smart phones and our cars.