kalki
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Post by kalki on Feb 22, 2012 17:57:24 GMT -6
the video is filled with examples of people who sat in tanks of ice cubes or walked on ice for longer than humans should. scientists had concluded that they had control of their body through tummo to generate enough heat to survive the cold without getting hypothermia or complete frostbite. Well, does any of this prove anything about nadis and cakras? It merely proves that some people are able to control their body temperatures. That fellow at the end even got frost-bite. So they are not even able to control it very well. Being able to control one's body temperature and proving the existence of nadis and cakras are not the same. As I said before, the nadis and cakras are imaginary meditation supports just like the lila of Krsna. There are bound to be results but not because there are nadis or cakras. The real mechanisms for the experience of tummo or bhakti-rasa are as yet not known. yes sure, this doesn't precisely prove nadis and chakras etc. but I am trying to provide some support to get tot he bottom of it. we can perhaps agree that something causes someone to control the body like that. you say that it is something other than nadis or practice of tummo, but at least as that these are the practices attributed, then it must be part of the answer. well, put it this way. how many people have achieved what they have in this video without the practice of tummo and using the nadis? Houdini is usually cited as having the best control of his body in the west and he did not achieve what is in this video. and that guy that got frostbite, was still able to keep his toes which the docs said was impossible. for me it is proof enough. another argument if you will is that just because it cannot be proven does not been that it is disproven. at least that much you can buy, right?
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 23, 2012 15:45:12 GMT -6
yes sure, this doesn't precisely prove nadis and chakras etc. but I am trying to provide some support to get tot he bottom of it. we can perhaps agree that something causes someone to control the body like that. you say that it is something other than nadis or practice of tummo, but at least as that these are the practices attributed, then it must be part of the answer. It doesn't even imprecisely prove them. No one has ever found any of those structures in the body and every aspect of the human body has been dissected and studied. If you want to argue that they are part of the "subtle" body, then my response is that they are then too subtle for me. If they are invisible then they may as well not exist. I suspect tummo is a fiction devised by the Tibetans to name some aspect of the way the mind has influence over the body. The mind/body problem is very diificult and hard to solve. It may be possible for the mind to influence the functioning of the body by creative visualization, but the mechanisms of how that happens remain unknown. I am sure they will be discovered some day soon. Even the idea of placebo effect is mysterious. How does it work? We know it does, but the mechanisms are as yet unknown. But think of how great it would be if we could cure ourselves say 75% of the time just by thinking we are taking some medicine. I really doubt that that runner had any training in it. He says he did, but I doubt it. He may have just been born with a high tolerance for the cold. He may be conditioned for it. I don't think he would have been able to meditate will running or swimming. So I don't think he was doing anything special apart from running and swimming. The human body and mind are amazing. We hardly know what capacities they have, but they are all natural, nothing supernatural. I think he was just lucky. His conditioning living in a cold climate kept him from being too badly harmed. If these things (nadis and cakras) really existed, then they would have been discovered in dissection. Since they have not, there is no reason to think them real. That seems like a solid argument. I agree an argument from a negative is not as strong in general as other positive arguments, but sometimes and in some cases they are. This is one of those, I think. The simplest explanation is to see them (nadis, cakras, and the stated sources of tummo) as products of the imagination as part of a process of meditation. Perhaps by imagining these things some good result comes through some placebo-like effect. It does not make them real. It does give them a certain usefulness in some contexts. Otherwise, once you open the door on these kinds of things, the world will become filled with elves and fairies and unicorns and pixies and what not.
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kalki
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Posts: 161
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Post by kalki on Feb 24, 2012 14:19:50 GMT -6
The simplest explanation is to see them (nadis, cakras, and the stated sources of tummo) as products of the imagination as part of a process of meditation. Perhaps by imagining these things some good result comes through some placebo-like effect. It does not make them real. It does give them a certain usefulness in some contexts. Otherwise, once you open the door on these kinds of things, the world will become filled with elves and fairies and unicorns and pixies and what not. Yes well I don't disbelieve in the existence of faires, unicorns, etc. I do believe that good result can come about when believing in nadis and so forth, but could it all come about a different way? For some reason this system is pretty standard in yoga system. Perhaps a reason for its consistency rather than a combatancy between various systems, such as what goes on in the appearance and way to God. Yes I think that these systems are representitive of mind over matter, but somehow I think they must be very close to reality. Of course you cannot find subtle regions with dissections. They are subtle. Does it mean ghost don't exist for you? So many documented cases of ghost activity are there. So they exist but we can only see their traces and not their direct existence.
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Post by malati on Feb 25, 2012 2:00:06 GMT -6
yes sure, this doesn't precisely prove nadis and chakras etc. but I am trying to provide some support to get tot he bottom of it. we can perhaps agree that something causes someone to control the body like that. you say that it is something other than nadis or practice of tummo, but at least as that these are the practices attributed, then it must be part of the answer. It doesn't even imprecisely prove them. No one has ever found any of those structures in the body and every aspect of the human body has been dissected and studied. If you want to argue that they are part of the "subtle" body, then my response is that they are then too subtle for me. If they are invisible then they may as well not exist. I suspect tummo is a fiction devised by the Tibetans to name some aspect of the way the mind has influence over the body. The mind/body problem is very diificult and hard to solve. It may be possible for the mind to influence the functioning of the body by creative visualization, but the mechanisms of how that happens remain unknown. I am sure they will be discovered some day soon. Even the idea of placebo effect is mysterious. How does it work? We know it does, but the mechanisms are as yet unknown. But think of how great it would be if we could cure ourselves say 75% of the time just by thinking we are taking some medicine. I really doubt that that runner had any training in it. He says he did, but I doubt it. He may have just been born with a high tolerance for the cold. He may be conditioned for it. I don't think he would have been able to meditate will running or swimming. So I don't think he was doing anything special apart from running and swimming. The human body and mind are amazing. We hardly know what capacities they have, but they are all natural, nothing supernatural. I think he was just lucky. His conditioning living in a cold climate kept him from being too badly harmed. If these things (nadis and cakras) really existed, then they would have been discovered in dissection. Since they have not, there is no reason to think them real. That seems like a solid argument. I agree an argument from a negative is not as strong in general as other positive arguments, but sometimes and in some cases they are. This is one of those, I think. The simplest explanation is to see them (nadis, cakras, and the stated sources of tummo) as products of the imagination as part of a process of meditation. Perhaps by imagining these things some good result comes through some placebo-like effect. It does not make them real. It does give them a certain usefulness in some contexts. Otherwise, once you open the door on these kinds of things, the world will become filled with elves and fairies and unicorns and pixies and what not. You made interesting points Nitaiji. Actually with the mind body problem, UCLA prof Dr Schwartz did experiments on people suffering from OCD Obsessive Compulsive Disorders. The observations were that mindful activities such as meditation and self-directing intentions etc could physically change the brain to counteract his/her OCD. This is called neuroplasticity. I think the ideology of materialism will be dead sooner than later , what with the philosophical implications of QM, observer effect, etc. and consciousness. There's a bonfight recently between those who believe in the reality of consciousness and J Coyne, the evo. biologist. Of course Coyne being an atheist materialist does not agree that there is a link between consciousness and the human evolution.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 28, 2012 15:13:19 GMT -6
The simplest explanation is to see them (nadis, cakras, and the stated sources of tummo) as products of the imagination as part of a process of meditation. Perhaps by imagining these things some good result comes through some placebo-like effect. It does not make them real. It does give them a certain usefulness in some contexts. Otherwise, once you open the door on these kinds of things, the world will become filled with elves and fairies and unicorns and pixies and what not. Yes well I don't disbelieve in the existence of faires, unicorns, etc. You should see someone for this. If you believe in these things, how will you ever develop the ability to distinguish between what is true and what is false? None of those things exist, cher ami. Good results come even without believing in nadis and what not. There is no good evidence of their existence. Why should we accept the statements of someone who claims to be a yogi? We need hard evidence, bro. Of course ghosts don't exist. They are complete fabrications. Not one of the "documented" cases is real. Things that we cannot in principle see or measure are not real. It is not a matter of mind being over matter. Mind is matter and that is how is affects other material things. If it were not matter it could change or influence anything. It does not do it in some paranormal way, but by affecting the chemistry by which the brain and the body work. It is that chemistry.
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Post by Nitaidas on Feb 28, 2012 15:39:21 GMT -6
I think the ideology of materialism will be dead sooner than later , what with the philosophical implications of QM, observer effect, etc. and consciousness. I doubt it. It is a powerful philosophy and well heck, it just works. The people who use QM to try to prove the separateness of spirit generally don't understand QM. Take that blowhard Chopra for instance. He hasn't a clue what QM is or what he is saying most of the time. The fact remains that there is no support for a dualistic system of philosophy any more. Matter is no longer just matter to be opposed by spirit. Matter and spirit are the same. Consciousness and our brains are the same. The sense we have that they are different is an illusion. Yes. Coyne is great. He made mincemeat of that buffoon at Skeptico. His recent comments on Plantinga's work are insightful. Plantinga thinks he can sell us something without even trying. Belief in God is a basic truth, one that does not need support. What a turd.
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Post by vkaul1 on Feb 28, 2012 16:19:58 GMT -6
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kalki
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Posts: 161
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Post by kalki on Mar 1, 2012 0:21:51 GMT -6
Yes well I don't disbelieve in the existence of faires, unicorns, etc. You should see someone for this. If you believe in these things, how will you ever develop the ability to distinguish between what is true and what is false? None of those things exist, cher ami. Well, I guess I have a belief in the subtle world. These subtle beings are mere projections of the mind. I don't believe that mind is matter. I believe it may be a very subtle type of matter which of course does exist, but not inherently. This goes into some Buddhist views which are obviously in direct conflict with Vaishnavism. I suppose I have a Buddhist sense of the material world with a Vaishnava sense of spiritual practice. I am not only trying to sort out where the conflicts exist between the two, but also where the conflicts exist between your approach to Vaishnavism and the more traditional approach. I have no problem with either conflict though because it takes time to sort things out so I am just along for the ride so to speak.
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