kalki
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Posts: 161
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Post by kalki on Mar 18, 2012 11:35:25 GMT -6
I don't think anyone can rightly claim that Krsna is recommended over Brahman or even that they are different. They are regarded as essentially the same, even interchangeable. That is what makes the vadanti verse in the Bhagavata so significant. Sankara too regards them as the same. how does this work? I thought that the "brahman effulgence" was supposed to be emanating from Krishna's abode? and I thought krishna says in Gita that only foolish people worship his imprersonal form and that his personal form is indeed higher. No? |
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Post by Nitaidas on Mar 18, 2012 11:45:40 GMT -6
I don't think anyone can rightly claim that Krsna is recommended over Brahman or even that they are different. They are regarded as essentially the same, even interchangeable. That is what makes the vadanti verse in the Bhagavata so significant. Sankara too regards them as the same. how does this work? I thought that the "brahman effulgence" was supposed to be emanating from Krishna's abode? and I thought krishna says in Gita that only foolish people worship his imprersonal form and that his personal form is indeed higher. No? No. Misled again by IGM. The bastards! Read that Bhagavata verse (1.2.11) again very, very carefully. The words brahman, paramatman, and bhagavan are three different ways of referring to the same nondual knowledge. How much clearer can it get? The idea of effulgence was perhaps the idea of Krsnadas Kavaraja. He was not to be trusted entirely. I translated Sri Jiva's account of the difference of brahman and bhagava. Did you not see it? Look under the forum on theology. I will add to that some more sections. |
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Post by kirtaniya on Mar 18, 2012 12:41:38 GMT -6
Thank you, Nitai dasji. You gave the names of Mayeda, Hacker and Nakamura as prominent scientists who studied Sankara. But I am slow to obtain their books and to read parts of their books in internet. So, I want to get a list of real books of Sankara but could not find it on this forum yet. Please kindly give it here; it will be good for all who interested in Sankara but not able to read those scientists at once. Regarding saguna/nirguna I understand it to the present day as it given in Sankara's bhasya 4.4.19. 1/4 of Purusa is saguna; 3/4 is nirguna; but ultimately that 1/4 (jivas) is nirguna too (because tat tvam asi). Also elsewhere Sankara gives an analogy of an ocean and waves. Waves are like falsely separate reality but actually they are the same ocean. Thus saguna, it seems to me, is those waves (or 1/4 of Purusa). That 1/4 part of Purusa (in Rig Veda) is not final consideration, but final is oneness of jiva and Purusa as atman. Sariraka-bhasya4.4.19. And (there is also a form of the highest Lord) not abiding in effected things; for thus scripture declares his abiding.
Moreover, according to scripture, there is also an eternal form of the highest Lord which does not abide in effects; he is not only the ruling soul of the spheres of the sun and so on which lie within the sphere of what is effected. For the text declares his abiding in a twofold form, as follows: 'Such is the greatness of it; greater than it is the Person. One foot of him are all beings; three feet of him is what is immortal in heaven' (Kh. Up. III, 12, 6). And it cannot be maintained that that form of him which is divorced from all effects is reached by those who put their trust on his other form; for their minds are not set on the former. Hence as he who does not reach that form of the double-natured highest Lord which is divorced from all qualities stops at that form which is distinguished by qualities, so also, unable to reach unlimited power within the latter form, he stops at limited lordly power. Also I want to make it clear, what is the position of Siva, Devi, Ganesh, Surya in CV? Also Brahma and Kartikeya. They are praised by smartas, but what exactly CV say to that smarta opinion? And also Indra, who is praised elsewhere as supreme atman. |
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Post by Nitaidas on Mar 19, 2012 22:23:27 GMT -6
Thank you, Nitai dasji. You gave the names of Mayeda, Hacker and Nakamura as prominent scientists who studied Sankara. But I am slow to obtain their books and to read parts of their books in internet. So, I want to get a list of real books of Sankara but could not find it on this forum yet. Please kindly give it here; it will be good for all who interested in Sankara but not able to read those scientists at once. Hacker says this: According to my researches, I regard as authentic, besides the Brahmasutrabhasya, the following: the commentaries on the Upanisads, except those on Svetasvatara and Nrsimhapurvatapaniya Upanisads, but inclusive of the commentary on Mandukyakarika, also on the Bhagavadgita and perhaps that on the Adhyatmapatala of the Apastambadharmasutra, and finally the Upadesasahasri. The last is a collection (perhaps compiled by Sankara's pupil Suresvara) of all his independent writings. Wow! You really know your scripture! Why do you ask me these things, then? I freely admit that I am reading Sankara and have not read that much. You know much more than me. But do you think that this passage really justifies what people say about Sankara's views on saguna and nirguna? I did a quick search of the internet for thoses terms in connection with Sankara. One gets many sites saying that Sankara says this and that about nirguna and saguna Brahman, but no one points to any specific place in his writing where he says such things. This is the first place I have heard of where the terms actually appear in a work that is probably his. If you read this carefully, does this really justify all those words that are put in his mouth? Sankara says in this passage that the lord abides in a twofold form (rupa). This does not sound like a form and a formlessness. This sounds more like the distinction Sri Jiva makes between Paramatman and Bhagavan. I can't say what the position is in CV on most of these gods. You probably know better than I. Siva of course is possibly identified with Advaitacarya or he is to regarded as not different from Visnu. This is in the aparadhas. The others I don't know. I think maybe I should shut up now and go study for ten years. i have fallen way behind. I need to read all of the authentic Sankara and all of Sri Jiva's Sandarbhas. It will take me a while. Also, on the idea of the ocean and its wave look at what Sri Sanatana says in his Brhadbhagavatamrta. I have a loose translation of that in the forum on the Songs of Govinda Das. Look at the eighth panel. Perhaps he had the metaphor of Sankara's that you mention in mind when he wrote that. |
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kalki
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Posts: 161
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Post by kalki on Mar 28, 2012 9:36:17 GMT -6
I translated Sri Jiva's account of the difference of brahman and bhagava. Did you not see it? Look under the forum on theology. I will add to that some more sections. I guess I may not have seen it or maybe did and did not get it on the first reading. Can you provide a link? I tell you, as a person that does not read sanskrit and having been influenced so heavily by IGM, it all becomes quite complicated when trying to re-understand the basics of phenomena in the Gaudiya world. It would sure help if we can just read one book which analyzes all the misconceptions and rounds up with the correct conception. Can you make one of those? It would piss off the whole Gaudiya world I suppose. |
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