A New Translation of the Bhagavata with comms.

[Nitaidas]

Dec 6, 2011 2:28:52 GMT -6 malati said:

I make this post to make this thread gets noticed again.

Sure this Bhagavat project is very good. You and your friend's objective is very congratulatory.

Of course the funding would be a problem. In our community, funding would be hard to find because we are not in the hundreds compared to other GV groups. (I don't even know that the number of GV trad devotees in the west reach 100,; we are not many and a big percentage are not actively interacting with each other. Do they even visit this site?) Do some institutions in the U.S. or elsewhere would have grants for this kind of project?

Anyway, I would like to call the attention of devotees who have the same sentiment as ours to please make a contribution to this worthy project. Any amount will be appreciated and put to good use, I'm sure. (I know Nitaidasji, he's a very kind person because when I bought books from him, he offered discounts even if I didn't ask for it). Please think of this project when making a list of gifts to send this christmas season.

[/b]

Please put a link to where donations can be sent.
[/quote]

Thanks for your endorsement, Malati. I realize that money is not in big supply during these economically squeezed times. Also our community is small, as you point out. Still, this community is likely to benefit greatly from such a translation and I thought I would start here.

Yes, my friend and I are also exploring other institutional sources of funding. He and his wife have some experience in applying for grants and such. I do too but I have had more failures than successes. I am hoping that his experience well help us land a big enough grant to push the project forward.

So far we have him and his wife and me and my wife on board as members of the project. If we are actually able to drum up some funds, I will approach some others to help translate and edit. Jagat is, of course, on the list. Whatever else he is, he is an excellent Sanskritist. I have a few more Sanskritist friends whom I might be able to rope into the project. One of the models for this project is the van Buitenen translation of the Mahabharata which was taken over by one of his students after his passing. Now a number of people are working on it. Each has been assigned a different book. It would be great to have a team of six or so translators working simultaneously on different parts of the text. That way it would be done sooner and a central board of editors and proofreaders would help standardize the translation. Anyway, it is exciting to undertake a large project like this. I imagine each Skandha will fill a volume.

Yes. I will put up a link soon just in case any of our members want to contribute.

[Nitaidas]

Sad news. This project fell through for one reason or another. At present we are back to its former state, which means me doing my thing slowly. I am about to finish the first chapter of the first skandha with Sridhara's and Srinathacakravartin's comms. It is a start, but there is a long way to go.

I have also started work on Vopadeva's Harililamrta with Madhusudana's comm. It is kind of preparatory to the main work of producing the Bhagavata with Sridhara's comm. It is perhaps the oldest surviving commentary/summary of the Bhagavata and has some interesting things to say about how the Bhagavata is organized. I will post what I have of that shortly. That will go in the appendix of the first volume of the Bhagavata. I want to take up his Muktaphala next which is the next major milestone in the hermeneutics of the text. It is the first work I know of that tries to apply rasa theory to the Bhagavata.

Anyway, this is the situation now.

[madanmohandas]

Sad news indeed master! What we/I really lack is not so much the mula text, but the annotations of the venerable Sridhar Swami.
I've been without a computer for some months, but back on line now.
I've been reading Bhanu Swami's translation with Visvanatha's tika. Some of Visvanatha's explanations I found somewhat perplexing. Here is an example.

evaM harau bhagavati pratilabdhabhAvo
bhaktyA dravaddhrdaya utpulakah pramodAt/
autkantyabAspakalayA muhur-ardyamAnas-
taccApi cittabaDizaM sanakair-viyunkte// Bhag 3.28.34

In the Motilal we have;

In this way ( of meditating on the lord ) the sage gets the love of Hari engendered in him. His heart is melted with devotion. He finds his hair standing on their ends through ecstatic joy. Due to the tears of joy flowing on account of his ardent love for god, he finds himself frequently submerged in the flood of joys. He gradually disentangles himself from his heart which is like a hook to secure the lord.

In a foot note ascribed to Sridhar, it says; 'citta-baDizam' the angle ( hook ) which hooks up with the lord who is difficult to capture.

Now in Tapasyananda's translation we have;

Through such meditation the devotee obtains absorbing love for the lord. His heart melts in the sentiment of devotion and his tears of surpassing joy almost drown him. The power of devotion then slowly melts the metallic hook of the mind which holds the Purusa in the bondage of Prakrti.

Now this is what caused me surprise. Bhanu has translated the mula thus;

The unfortunate yogi who has developed love for the lord, whose heart is somewhat soft because of devotion, whose body hairs stand on end in ecstasy, who is constantly overcome with tears of joy, gradually withdraws his hook-like mind from the lord's form.

The commentary is long and seems artificial.
So, Nitai, or anyone, what do you make of it?

I've read upto the end of Book 9 and have identified about ten apparent inconsistencies.

[madanmohandas]

btw ' venerable Sridhar ' is a take on ' venerable Bede'. I'd like to think of Sridhar as 'the' commentator like Averroes is to western thought. Ha ha! So let us have Sridhar's tika first, an it please your honour.
Moreover, if his Bhagavat tika is anything like his tika on the Gita, then it must be great. Venerable Sridhar's Subodhini on the Gita is so precise and authoritative even in the English translation, anyone reading it would surely agree.

[Nitaidas]

Jun 3, 2012 7:22:48 GMT -6 madanmohandas said:

Sad news indeed master! What we/I really lack is not so much the mula text, but the annotations of the venerable Sridhar Swami.
I've been without a computer for some months, but back on line now.
I've been reading Bhanu Swami's translation with Visvanatha's tika. Some of Visvanatha's explanations I found somewhat perplexing. Here is an example.

evaM harau bhagavati pratilabdhabhAvo
bhaktyA dravaddhrdaya utpulakah pramodAt/
autkantyabAspakalayA muhur-ardyamAnas-
taccApi cittabaDizaM sanakair-viyunkte// Bhag 3.28.34

In the Motilal we have;

In this way ( of meditating on the lord ) the sage gets the love of Hari engendered in him. His heart is melted with devotion. He finds his hair standing on their ends through ecstatic joy. Due to the tears of joy flowing on account of his ardent love for god, he finds himself frequently submerged in the flood of joys. He gradually disentangles himself from his heart which is like a hook to secure the lord.

In a foot note ascribed to Sridhar, it says; 'citta-baDizam' the angle ( hook ) which hooks up with the lord who is difficult to capture.

Now in Tapasyananda's translation we have;

Through such meditation the devotee obtains absorbing love for the lord. His heart melts in the sentiment of devotion and his tears of surpassing joy almost drown him. The power of devotion then slowly melts the metallic hook of the mind which holds the Purusa in the bondage of Prakrti.

Now this is what caused me surprise. Bhanu has translated the mula thus;

The unfortunate yogi who has developed love for the lord, whose heart is somewhat soft because of devotion, whose body hairs stand on end in ecstasy, who is constantly overcome with tears of joy, gradually withdraws his hook-like mind from the lord's form.

The commentary is long and seems artificial.
So, Nitai, or anyone, what do you make of it?

I've read upto the end of Book 9 and have identified about ten apparent inconsistencies.

This is an interesting question, madanmohanji. It is another example of a laconic verse in the Bhagavata the exact meaning of which is not clear. What is the meaning of this citta-baDiza, mind-hook? To what does the mind as hook hook? It could be, and maybe this is the most reasonable way of taking it, that the mind is compared with a hook because it hooks onto things, ie. becomes attached to or stuck on things. We have perhaps all had this experience, playing some event or conversation over and over again in our minds. The most reasonable sense would be, then that for someone in whom bhava has arisen his mind-hook becomes gradually detached from its ordinary attachments and entanglements. That seems like a good thing and seems to fit with the idea that when one tastes the pleasure of the supreme all lesser tastes are forgotten. Why is such a yogi unfortunate, then? Where does the idea come from that the yogis mind is hooked to the lord and then gradually becomes unhooked from it? The lord does not seem to appear anywhere in the verse. BaDiza is a neuter noun and so can well be the subject of the verb viyunkte. No object is mentioned. So the translation of that last quarter should be something like:

"And then indeed the mind-hook gradually unhooks [from its entanglements]."

Let me look at Sridhara's comm on this verse and see what he says.

In general, I think Bhanu is more or less competent. He seems to occasionally go astray as he appears to have here. It is a flaw that many of us who translate share. To really master these texts we would have to have started studying Sanskrit as boys or girls and stuck with it, memorizing the entire Amarakoza, the entire grammar of Panini or Vopadeva or Sri Jiva and then have studied all the important sastras (mimamsa, nyaya, sankhya-yoga, vedanta, alankara, jyotis, chandas, etc). One cannot expect a yahoo who starts in his twenties or thirties and manages somehow to pick up a smattering of grammar here and vocabulary there to have anything even remotely approaching such mastery. So we all go astray fairly often.

[Nitaidas]

I just looked at Sridhara's comment on this verse. This verse and the following one are on the topic of samadhi which is of two types: sabija and nirbija "with seed" and "without seed." This verse describes according to Sridhara the gradual transition from sabija to nirbija, from meditation on Bhagavan to objectless meditation. Sridhara shows his Advaita roots here and demonstrates how the text itself has a strong advaita leaning. So yes according to Sridhara the mind-hook gradually becomes detached from the lord which is the object of focus in the sabija form of samadhi and moves to the highest stage of samadhi, nirbija samadhi or objectless samadhi (aka nirvikalpa-samadhi): ato nirvANaM layam rcchati| vRttirUpatAM parityajya brahmAkAreNa pariNamata ityarthaH|

"Then, he reaches nirvana or dissolution. Leaving behind its (the mind's) state of registering an object or vrtti it transforms into the shape of Brahman. This is the meaning."

[madanmohandas]

Good, good. I would imagine Bhanu has done his best, the question is what does Visvanatha say? On various occasions he seems to strain the interpretation in order to maintain his somewhat sectarian view. I hope none are upset, certain persons are, on the grounds of ' who do you think you are to question Visvanatha?'
My observation is that if one concentrates on becoming familiar with the mula text before studying tikas the contextual view allows the reader make their own judgements and opinions and discard those that he may deem derived from unsound reasoning or sectarian dogma.

[Nitaidas]

Jun 4, 2012 12:45:29 GMT -6 madanmohandas said:

Good, good. I would imagine Bhanu has done his best, the question is what does Visvanatha say? On various occasions he seems to strain the interpretation in order to maintain his somewhat sectarian view. I hope none are upset, certain persons are, on the grounds of ' who do you think you are to question Visvanatha?'
My observation is that if one concentrates on becoming familiar with the mula text before studying tikas the contextual view allows the reader make their own judgements and opinions and discard those that he may deem derived from unsound reasoning or sectarian dogma.

Afraid I cannot help you there, madanmohanji. I don't have a copy of Visvanatha's commentary on that part of the Bhagavata. It would be interesting to see what he has to say. I think Visvanatha begs to be questioned. No one is always right. Not many are even mostly right.

By the way, it is good to see you here again. I wondered where you had gone off to. In case you haven't noticed I divided the Gita into to two "pocket" editions, one with only Caleb's translation and the other with just the Sanskrit. Remind of your mailing address by personal message and I will send you some copies.

[gerard]

Perhaps of interest to people who do not have access to this book, here a fragment from Daniel P. Sheridan's The Advaitic Theism of the Bhagavata Purana about this part of the Kapilopadesh:

Thus through devotion a man becomes a yogin and performs all the practices of Yoga. He becomes even-minded and unattached and realizes the Self. One who is controlled by his senses and their gratification cannot follow the path of devotion until they are brought under control. The path of yoga, which is here just barely distinguished from the yoga of devotion, is reminiscent of Patanjali's eightfold Yoga. The highest goal of this exercise is the realization of non-dual Brahman.53 The devotee finds that his true self is the Self and that the eightfold Yoga removes the obstacles to that realization.

This yoga is called by Sridhara vaisnavayoga, and is treated in detail in chapters twenty-eight and twenty-nine of canto three where Kapila teaches his mother about "the character of Yoga, which has some object to subsist on (sabija), by practicing which the mind becomes tranquil and pure and attains the path of truth."54 In order to dissolve the twenty-four categories, one applies external restraint (yama) and internal control (niyama).55 This kind of yoga is sabija, that is, its goal is a deep meditation (samadhi) with an object. Its meditation leaves behind the unreal sense world and centers on the real object, Bhagavan. A deep meditation without an object (nirbija), contentless concentration, however, is the goal of Vaisnava Yoga: "Just as a flame is extinguished, the mind immediately obtains extinction (nirvana), when it is indifferent, detached from sense objects, and freed from its support; the spirit (purusa) then experiences the Self as one, without the distinctions of subject and object and free from the flow of the qualities."56 The person is free from sorrow and distress. He, "having established himself in this glory, which is beyond pleasure and pain, by means of this last restraint of the mind, realizes the essential nature of the Self and transfers the agency of the pleasure and pain from himself to ahamkara, which is not ultimately real."57 Thus there is a complete surrender of the true interior self, stripped of its mental accretions, to Brahman and a realization of their unity. In this way the practice of Yoga is put to a Vedantic purpose.


53. Cf. III.27.11.
54. III.28.1 : yogasya laksanam vaksye sabijasya nripatmaje/ mano yenaiva vidhina prasannam yati satpatham//
55. Cf. III.28.2-5a and XI.19.33-34.
56. III.28.35 : muktasravana yarhi nirvisayam viraktam nirvanamrcchati manah sahasa yatha'rcih/atmanamatra puruso vyavadhanamekamanviksate pratinivrttagunapravahah//
57. III.28.36 : so'pyetaya caramaya manaso nivrttya tasminmahimnya-vasitah sukhaduhkhabahye/ hetutvamapyasati kartari duhkhayoryatsvat-manvidhatta upalabdhaparatmakasthah//

[madanmohandas]

Interesting book Gerard. I was going to type up Visvanatha's tika on these verses, but its quite long and I'll get to it later. In the meantime it should be said that aside from his comments on all that he does make excellent and sometimes very humorous reading. One of his readings of the nigamakalpatoror...etc. is,

nigamakalpataror-galitam phalam
sukamukhAd amrta drava samyutam/
pibata bhAgavatam rasam Alayam
muhur-aho rasikAh bhuvi bhAvukAh//

Ripe fruit from wishing-tree of sacred writ,
now Suka's holy lips have sweetened it.
Drink this Bhagavat, repository of humours,
repeatedly, you wise discerning connoisseurs!


'Or laya can refer to the eighth sattvic bhava called pralaya, fainting. One should drink it until one develops the eight symptoms up to the final one, fainting. Though one will not be able to drink the nectar when one has fainted, when the fainting wears off, one again awakens to consciousness and begins drinking until one faints again. One cannot give up drinking. Thus the word muhuh ( continuously ) is used..........etc.

[Nitaidas]

Jun 5, 2012 2:35:05 GMT -6 madanmohandas said:

Interesting book Gerard. I was going to type up Visvanatha's tika on these verses, but its quite long and I'll get to it later. In the meantime it should be said that aside from his comments on all that he does make excellent and sometimes very humorous reading. One of his readings of the nigamakalpatoror...etc. is,

nigamakalpataror-galitam phalam
sukamukhAd amrta drava samyutam/
pibata bhAgavatam rasam Alayam
muhur-aho rasikAh bhuvi bhAvukAh//

Ripe fruit from wishing-tree of sacred writ,
now Suka's holy lips have sweetened it.
Drink this Bhagavat, repository of humours,
repeatedly, you wise discerning connoisseurs!


'Or laya can refer to the eighth sattvic bhava called pralaya, fainting. One should drink it until one develops the eight symptoms up to the final one, fainting. Though one will not be able to drink the nectar when one has fainted, when the fainting wears off, one again awakens to consciousness and begins drinking until one faints again. One cannot give up drinking. Thus the word muhuh ( continuously ) is used..........etc.

Is this from Bhanu babu?

[madanmohandas]

Well the tika excerpt is, but its my attempt at the mula.

[Nitaidas]

Thanks for this, gerardji. This is a great exposition of that passage and should put to rest to some degree that misguided claim that the Bhagavata is not an Advaita text.

I just remembered that I do have Srinatha's commentary on this verse. I will check it later and present his explanation. It is relatively long for him. I also remembered that I have Sri Jiva's comm on the Bhagavata. too. I will check that.

[Nitaidas]

Jun 5, 2012 10:03:12 GMT -6 madanmohandas said:

Well the tika excerpt is, but its my attempt at the mula.

I suspected the mula translation, with end rhyme and everything, was too clever for Bhanu.

The representation of the bhakta going into laya again and again reminds of one of my malfunctioning computers resetting itself over and over again. It is a rather humorous description.

[madanmohandas]

Nay, I wish Bhanu Swami had done Sridhara's, still he has done alot. I am about to try and acquire a copy of his translation of Gopal Campu. I have not read that book, but I've seen some You tube clips of Jagadananda das expounding it.
Regarding Visvanatha's katha above it shows a certain admirability(?) in his character. It is very funny in the best possible way, just imagine, one might have to send for the doctor.
You also point out the advaita teachings in the Bhagavat, I have not read a text that does not expound it as 'paramartha', aside from later works and commentaries. The Visnu Puran is an example. It is often quoted by the opponents of the advaita doctrine, but is observed to be even more explicit than the Bhagavat. It seems to me that bhakti is synonymus with the realisation of advaita. Talk of advaita will necessarily be in the abstract I suppose.